Judicator vs Skorne First game

[Spyde]

So i used a stormwall as my Judicator and gave it a try. So far, im disappointed, but it coulda been rolls.

My list
efeora
Bonded Judicator
templar
Reckoner

Full TFG = UA
Knights Exemplar
Choir
2x Vassal
Book
1 mechanik


Other guy
pmakeda
Malik
2x Titan Glads
Full Preatorian
beast handlers
Full centari
Krea ? med beast

First turn he went and moved up fast, i moved up and placed my TFG to shield the Judicator, no range
2nd turn he moved up, Feated.
I then unleashed my judicator, i killed 3-4 preatorians, 2x TFG and had fire on 2 heavies and his med beast Scatters were bad on all the shots. Charged his Centari with Knights and didnt kill any, just wounded

3rd turn i lose 3x knights, 6x TFG. Judicator shoots with vassal Ancill attack and does nothing. Malik Kills other 3 Knights.

This is where rest of the army did its job, templar Wrecked a titan, Reckoner killed 2x Centari in front of his other titan.
i had 7 things on fire, Feora charged the last 3 Centari feated then moved fire to his beast handlers and Warlock (Malik Karn behind the centari) killed 3 with feora, Firestep out of the way, Judicator charged and knocked out Malik and i have book/Judicator keeping Warcaster safe, all he had left now was 1 titan, 2 Preatorians, Krea and warlock.

From here on he had no way to get to my caster, and i had Judicator at full health, Templar and reckoner at full health and his warlock burning.

This is the big part to me for the judicator, he charged it with his medium beast, and a titan... Judicator fell fast, it had no chance vs the 1 Titan, 6x Attacks put it down in no time.

Thoughts.
I did have some bad scatters, but Judicator is 18 points... I feel i would have been better off having a redeemer and a vanquisher for only 14 pts.
Judicator 6x AOE 3's vs Redeemer 4x AOE 3's + 2x AOE 4 from Vanquishers for 4 pts less. Though, Judicator takes no Focus to do it, Redeemer Takes 2.

I never used the flamers, if i was close enough to use the flamers, i would of had a Titan in its face and be dead. PS22 on its attacks.. i can have PS 21 on the Avatar,

it took alot to keep the movement 11 Titans away from the Judicator Walls of infantry, Book setting in front of it to block a titan.

I know not a very good write up, i didnt take notes during the game, and its the day after :P

I will be buying a Judicator just because it looks awsome, Cannot be moved, disrupted, knocked down. SPD4 + Escort + Charge + reach is a decent range for it. Though, almost everyone else can out do that. (Cygnar gets 5+2Bond+Charge+Reach for 12" Threat) (Cryx can have 5+Mobility+Charge+4" reach)

Ill have to try it more, but it sure cannot stand up to a heavy beast, if he had beast handlers it would have been even worse.

Really to me the MVP was eferoa clearing out a large charge lane, hopping out of range, moving fire to his support units.

Reckoner and Templar Killed his Warcaster.

[Bishop84]

That is the biggest problem I have with it, in that it can't protect itself by dropping any sort of anti-infantry template. A couple of flame walls a turn from the flamers would have been perfect. Also, if something is in the 8" flame range, you're almost always better off charging in and punching.

However, those flame throwers will come in handy for an assassination when you can't get your fists into range because there are models in the way. And since it can use ranged attacks while engaged, it can walk right up base to base with an enemy, target it and flame right through it to the important figures in the back.

[jandrese]

The anti-infantry template would have been no use against a Titan Gladiator anyway. Those things are nutty powerful.

[Spyde]

yea, Glads are tough, i was able to keep them away with TFG walls, with 2x heavy jacks to counter charge and he at least had some infantry to shoot at. If he had his Gargant.. It would have been Garg + Titan Glad + Titan Glad then just about all my shooting from Judicator would have been junk... If you move, with Choir, you still need a 7 to hit defence 10... With his frog guy, it made it even harder.

But that seems to be the case for most of the Collosses.


The wall of fire, would not have helped me in any way, the only infantry it would effect was ones that could not hurt it in the first place.

[Bishop84]

If you move, with Choir, you still need a 7 to hit defence 10... With his frog guy, it made it even harder.

Ok, I take it back. THIS is my biggest problem with our colossus. It can annihilate light infantry all day (assuming you roll decent deviations), but it can't reliably hit what is typically the lowest base DEF in the game. It's forced to boost both hit rolls, and then can't boost both damage rolls (without a bond and extra focus). Anything dodgy like a Warpwolf are practically immune to rocket shots, even standing out in the open.

[Wulfy]

This is a simple problem we face against lost of armies. Simply stop the charge. You do this by blocking LOS or blocking troops. TFG, a make a great speed bump. KEEs are a sure thing, Zealots are awesome and you get one guaranteed turn of them preventing a charge. TFG are not a guarantee, but KEEs almost are you really only need one or two left to block the lane. A little extra planning on your part would have given you one more turn with Judicator and you would have probably whacked the Titan.

I plan on using cleansers as my speed bump. Move and fire Judicator, move cleansers in front of it and make a cloud to block LOS so you cant kill cleansers. If you manage to charge the cleansers, Judy has reach AND can just flame over the cleansers they are immune to fire! Just remember the speed bump is not there to earn their points back with kills, they are their to keep Judy alive.

[PG_Oniwasabi]

I'm guessing he still had some beast handlers left to enrage the Titan? Even assuming that those had to be some impressive rolls, Krea can get two boosted P+S 12's at dice - 7, Gladiatior with the beast handlers is 7 attacks, 6 at dice - 1, 1 at dice -2, and one attack somewhere getting the free charge boost. Chewing through 60ish boxes with that in a single turn is some impressive dice, if all the beast handlers died than those were some freakin EPIC dice.

It does largely confirm my impression of the Judicator so far, in that it doesn't have the ranged ability to become a "Stand and force opponent into action!" type of threat. Due to the choir however the Judicator is going to be a nightmare for certain standard tournament builds to try to deal with and will have the highest reliable melee damage output with universal access to being MAT 8. Definitely looking forward to more people trying him out, and a chance to proxy my own at some point!

I bet it felt good to crush Molik Karn underneath those giant holy fists though didn't it?

[Spyde]

Beast handlers were dead I had an amazing feat turn with efeora, +7 focus killed 3x medium base to free a charge lane being able to teleport out of the lane itself, and moved fire to all 3 of his beast handlers and Warlock.

krea put 11 damage on from his medium beast, Titan Glad walked up with 6x attacks and did the rest.

Even if he had rolled average, i would have lost 3/4 of my Coloss which is just as bad.


But i agree my worse issue is... hitting even enemy heavies.. Krea + Titan = def 12... If i move it takes 9's to hit. My scatters were bad, always 4-6".

Thing is if my first scatter was bad, the chain scatter always missed or had a 50/50 chance of going the correct way. Redeemer seems more accurate. + better range. I should'nt need to use the reckoner to have a decent change to hit a enemy heavy without boosting... more so a titan.

I'm just glad that i almost own 80%+ of the menoth model range and i can work on my legion soon to avoid the mass Disruption of the new Cygnar lists that i see.

[Gavriel]

Sounds like he rolled pretty well on that charging glad as well.

5 attacks at pow 18 and one at pow 17, on average should only do 39 boxes of damage to an arm 19 model. So he was rolling significantly above average to wreck it.

Is there a reason you ran on turn one instead of walking and shooting? the max scatter on the guns gives them a potential 26" range. And the chance of them deviating back onto you is low at max range. Generally if you go second you should start shooting on turn one.

I've been playing my Judicator mostly as a second wave unit that supports the army with ranged attacks in the early turns. Keep something big and dangerous in front of it like Gravus, KE, or anything else that your opponent will need to charge to get at before they charge him. Let them kill that screen and follow up with Judicator's melee. I haven't tried it with feora yet, just pSev, and having that plus 1 rat on it has been very important thus far.

[Spyde]

I didnt shoot first turn as he didnt move up fully so i didnt have range.

[jandrese]

It seems to me with RNG 14 you should be able to get the aiming bonus reasonably often (assuming you don't want to fire both rockets at the same target at least). When I proxied a game with the Judicator it was getting the aiming bonus for about half of its shots, which still only puts it at RAT 5, but at least it's something. Of course the tradeoff might be to advance forward and get into flamethrower range, but honestly the missiles seem better and I never used the Flamethrowers.

[Spyde]

Its hard to set still vs alot of heavy beasts when i had to take the point on his side of table. At most you get 1-2 turns of shooting around here at most.

even so, the guns arent going to stop heavy beasts coming at you in force.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Well the Judicator has a weakness. The rest of your army should have multiple vectors of anti Heavy Jack/Beast while your Judicator kills all the infantry.

[PG_Oniwasabi]

Beast handlers were dead I had an amazing feat turn with efeora, +7 focus killed 3x medium base to free a charge lane being able to teleport out of the lane itself, and moved fire to all 3 of his beast handlers and Warlock.

krea put 11 damage on from his medium beast, Titan Glad walked up with 6x attacks and did the rest.

Even if he had rolled average, i would have lost 3/4 of my Coloss which is just as bad.


But i agree my worse issue is... hitting even enemy heavies.. Krea + Titan = def 12... If i move it takes 9's to hit. My scatters were bad, always 4-6".

Thing is if my first scatter was bad, the chain scatter always missed or had a 50/50 chance of going the correct way. Redeemer seems more accurate. + better range. I should'nt need to use the reckoner to have a decent change to hit a enemy heavy without boosting... more so a titan.

I'm just glad that i almost own 80%+ of the menoth model range and i can work on my legion soon to avoid the mass Disruption of the new Cygnar lists that i see.

If the beast handlers were dead how did the Gladiator wreck Judi? 11 damage from the Krea is pretty impressive, about 3 points above average damage, but with no damage buffs (unless original flavor Makeda had a buff that I'm forgetting about?) Gladiator should have been rolling in at dice -3, average on 7 attacks (3 base + 4 bought) isn't even going to break 30 damage. In order to put the needed 49 damage on with those 7 attacks you are looking at an average of 10 on 2 dice. If I could average 10 on 2 dice consistently I would never bother bringing heavies because I wouldn't need them As long as your colossal has a working cortex and one L or R box remaining it will crush the hell out of a heavy warbeast, especially with choir support. Normally Judi would have been perfectly fine to survive and finish off the titan, and possible the Krea as well (assuming one side is broken, that's a 50% chance to hit with the broken arm for dice +6 against the Krea, 4 attacks with the non-broken arm hitting on 4's for dice + 4 should kill the Titan in 3, leaves you with another dice + 6 against the Krea). *edit* I forgot Judi was bonded, if it survived it could probably have had FOUR focus, not three, average rolls it easily kills both beasts

Really looking through the turn by turn you did a great job of outplaying your opponent and basically denying his beasts access to any heavy targets before shredding all of them. You lost your colossal to very high rolls but after that you still had an undamaged caster, an on fire enemy warlock, and two undamaged jacks that should have no trouble finishing off the only real threats left in your opponent's list. It will be interesting to see more reports and how much of a difference it can make for Judi when those Choir songs really make a difference with spell or shooting immunities.

[paradox]

Judicator killed Molik Karn and a few other things, and made fire tokens for Feora.
Had you taken a vanquisher and redeemer instead, you'd have spent more focus for the same amount of fire, and you'd of had nothing capable of killing Molik. That alone is probably worth it because Molik ends games.
You also forced his (last two?) beasts to tackle it. Sounds like they would be nicely grouped for killing/containment. Basically, you traded Judicator for Molik, a titan, and whatever light it was you mentioned.

I dont see how this is bad.

[paradox]

Edit: silly double post from phone...

[Craaag]

I think you just have to build your list for it like when making a Feora1 list. It can handle troopers (just like Feora) so it allows you to take more heavies and other hard hitting models rather than taking jacks/units that are specialized for dealing with troops but will struggle to eliminate an enemy heavy jack (vanquisher/redeemer etc).

I am very leery though about paying 18 pts for a model that does this but on the other hand I love Redeemers and I wish I didn't always feel like I had to pay 6 pnts for a light jack that does what it does, which is threaten annoying troops way across the table early. Basically an 8-11 pt jack that tackles heavies plus a 6 pt Redeemer is really approaching the point costs of our Collossal anyways and it easily has the capability to deal with an opponents heavy jack or beast after bombarding the crap out of troopers. We just have to protect the thing with trooper screens or whatever as we can't use Enliven on it.

Question. I assume we can use Ancillary attack on it?

[Spyde]

Killing Malik was huge, thats for sure, I wish i had taken Piper over the book for my TFG.

yes Ancillary attack works on Judicator, it gives you 3x Shots for a total of 6x AOE 3's.

It has good killing power, i just dont like relying on so much scatter for its ranged. Then again, whats new on that with a redeemer ?


The +1 Focus on it is very nice, i'm not sure if i would ever consider taking Judicator without a caster that increases speed, which to me makes it limited.


4x AOE 3's would take 2x Focus.
2x AOE 4's would have taken Zero focus.

Then again. thats 18 Points with 2x Vassels, and Judicator is 20 pts with its 1 Vassel. Wasn't looking at it that way.