thoughts from a newbie

[darkfine]

So after a long hiatus (early mk1) I have dived back in and am messing around with circle.

My opponent is running legion, learning curve anyone? Anyway I have some thoughts on the faction and am wondering how off I am.

1. A primaled stalker with kromac support is mean as hell.
2. Shifting stones are good against bad players and bad against good players, in other words, bad.
3. There seem like a lot of lists at various point levels that don't need infantry at all, which makes me think stuff like lord of the feast and friends are a risk to take.
4. Druids seem good....
5. In general feat turns don't seem that impressive for circle compared to other factions.
6. Eyeless sight is stoopid.

[Triumph Of Man]

2. Shifting stones are good against bad players and bad against good players, in other words, bad.

Care to explain further?

[stupidmonkey]

I was a Mk1 player since around the beginning, and have noticed something about myself and how I view units. I assume that If something does not jump out at me right away, that it is not going to be a good model. I think this comes from some models and units being "no good" in MK1. There is far less of that now. Sure, some models are better against high tier players, but they are doing WAY more play testing now I believe. Everything can be made useful. (looking at you winter argus??)

1. A stalker is mean as hell. Primal and kromac make him game shifting.
2. Shifting stones are great!! those good players kill one ASAP because they know this. most armies have to spend resources to get at one of your stealth'd stones, and your second set (yep they are that good) are inside your lines more, or off on a flank.) Even if one gets killed they are good at healing, blocking charge lanes, fury management, and targeting with chain lightning or hell mouth!!. Getting the hang of placement on these things is tough to get just right.
3. Many of those lists that do not have infantry still bring support (wilder, choir, mechanics etc...) LOTF loves these models! and then the enemy must spend one of it's high point models (the rest are dead) to take the lotf off the table. These lists are also not very common at 35+, where those models shine.
4. They ARE. bring the UA and make people hate them.
5. Most of circles feats add to what we do best, shenanigans. They are not face smashers, but many of them make us even faster than before, or deny retaliation. These are the hearts of circle. find ways to stack the feats with sprint, or a LOOONG alpha strike and you may be more impressed.
6. VERY. do you have a lot of legion in your META?? I ask this as you also were also hating on the stones, that legion can shoot despite stealth. The good thing is that Legion is some of the only Eyeless around. outside of dune boy and a few others. Once you get the hang of knowing that they ignore the rules of the game you can expect it. They also pay out the nose the ability.

[redcap71]

Want to make your legion friend cry. Play eBaldur 2 wold Guardians 2 sets of stones and what ever else makes you happy. Flesh of clay in conjunction with Roots of Earth is really hard on their ranged game. And you should be playing scenarios as well it will keep things interesting and balanced.

[PG_fildrigar]

2. Shifting stones are great!! those good players kill one ASAP because they know this. most armies have to spend resources to get at one of your stealth'd stones, and your second set (yep they are that good) are inside your lines more, or off on a flank.) Even if one gets killed they are good at healing, blocking charge lanes, fury management, and targeting with chain lightning or hell mouth!!. Getting the hang of placement on these things is tough to get just right.

Don't forget they're also good at contesting zones in scenario play. OP, you are playing scenarios, right?

[Often]

I want to jump on the "shifting stones are awesome" bandwagon. They're so good, one of my opponents actually sacrificed a light warbeast to take out the UA. They annoy opponents, contest zones (and never flee!), heal, add fury management. I think they're the best 3 points I can spend in Circle (in contention for best 2/3 points in the game with Gorman and Choir). It takes awhile to master using them, but being able to place them within 8 inches (or teleporting things 8 inches is an absolute amazing ability that can block counter-charge, charge lanes, or retaliation. It just depends on order of activation. I view using them well is a bit like playing chess with your Knights. You have to think a few moves in advance, think about a lot of possibilities to use them "correctly" or "well", but they're good enough to really annoy new players, and still get in the way of good players.

Besides, if I can distract an opponent by making them want to kill my shifting stones, the amount of damage they have to put into it is enough to disrupt their plan and gives me a bit of leeway to move around the field (depending on your opponent's ability to shoot at your beasts). I've been known to use them as bait (my opponents are catching on to this and start ignoring it... but it's still a win for me because I can then teleport around like pop-corn) to draw my opponents out of position.

[darkfine]

Shifting Stones force your opponent to sacrifice an activation to deal with them. Which is something they can plan for and deal with. And their abilities are less than awesome. The healing is irrelevant as things die the turn they are charged and the 8 inch teleport can again be planned for.

Yes we are playing scenarios, a fact which seems to hurt me more often than not. It is hard to dance around your opponent and make them chase you if they can just sit on a spot and win, but that is another thing entirely.

[nverbe]

Shifting Stones force your opponent to sacrifice an activation to deal with them. Which is something they can plan for and deal with. And their abilities are less than awesome. The healing is irrelevant as things die the turn they are charged and the 8 inch teleport can again be planned for.

Yes we are playing scenarios, a fact which seems to hurt me more often than not. It is hard to dance around your opponent and make them chase you if they can just sit on a spot and win, but that is another thing entirely.

it's almost certain that the value of the model(s) used to deal with the nuisance is more than the value of the stone itself.

At the end of the day they are still 2 point support unit that's ultimate purpose is fury management and lane denial. The other abilities are incidental if you get to make use of them.

[skillt]

Shifting Stones force your opponent to sacrifice an activation to deal with them. Which is something they can plan for and deal with. And their abilities are less than awesome. The healing is irrelevant as things die the turn they are charged and the 8 inch teleport can again be planned for.

Yes we are playing scenarios, a fact which seems to hurt me more often than not. It is hard to dance around your opponent and make them chase you if they can just sit on a spot and win, but that is another thing entirely.

Shifting stones are the best unit you can put into a circle army. You already lost your first game against me because you think it's an 8" teleport. It's actually 10, and Stalkers have reach. You may think them easy to kill because your friend is playing legion, who by far have the easiest time against them. There are many armes, including cryx, the most popular and well represented faction in the game that has a huge problem removing them. The teleport is there to punish people that do not or cannot kill a stone, the heals are there to mitiagte ranged damage on the approach and help with your attrition in the late game as your beasts start to get beat up. It can also put systems back into beasts so your caster doesn't have to activate out of order. They block charge lanes like you wouldn't believe, and have arm 18 so they are not easily cleared out of lanes by inconsequential things. Serenity is our only fury mitigation and is an excellent way to cool down beasts, especially if you can get multiple beasts in range of oth units of stones. The UA has rock hammer wich is a very high power attack for a one point model, and the critical knockdown can accidentally win you games.

I think a better way to say it is that shifting stones are broken against bad players and are good against good players and bad against legion.

Druids are over costed. But they have their place in some lists that can afford the points by gaining advantage in other ways. Such as pBaldurs tier, or Kruegar2.

And yes, eyeless sight is stupid. Along with most of legion.

Will

[eliassmith27]

Shifting stones are the best unit you can put into a circle army. You already lost your first game against me because you think it's an 8" teleport. It's actually 10, and Stalkers have reach. You may think them easy to kill because your friend is playing legion, who by far have the easiest time against them. There are many armes, including cryx, the most popular and well represented faction in the game that has a huge problem removing them. The teleport is there to punish people that do not or cannot kill a stone, the heals are there to mitiagte ranged damage on the approach and help with your attrition in the late game as your beasts start to get beat up. It can also put systems back into beasts so your caster doesn't have to activate out of order. They block charge lanes like you wouldn't believe, and have arm 18 so they are not easily cleared out of lanes by inconsequential things. Serenity is our only fury mitigation and is an excellent way to cool down beasts, especially if you can get multiple beasts in range of oth units of stones. The UA has rock hammer wich is a very high power attack for a one point model, and the critical knockdown can accidentally win you games.

I think a better way to say it is that shifting stones are broken against bad players and are good against good players and bad against legion.

Druids are over costed. But they have their place in some lists that can afford the points by gaining advantage in other ways. Such as pBaldurs tier, or Kruegar2.

And yes, eyeless sight is stupid. Along with most of legion.

Will

I agree with everything Skillt said except that the Druids are over cost.

Learn to play the stones and they will win you games. If they fail, they were only a 2/3 point investment. Also, Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew is a great unit to protect the second unit of stones if you are trying to set up the double teleport trick. A 20" placement (and a 3"walk with Kromac) is very hard to plan a defense for short of doing your best to kill a stone. (Gator Man Witch Doctor can make them Tough and Undead. lol)
I don't play them for the teleport, but I always have them in position for it just in-case an opening is given.

As far as the Druids are concerned, they are a great unit, but too spendy to fit in every list. Well worth their points in the lists they fit in. They offer the best anti-magic in the game, and provide a wall of LoS blocking clouds. With the UA they are immune to Legion Beast's Guns, half of Menoth's guns, and a good portion of Cygnar's. Hunter or Phantom Seeker shots are the only thing that usually scares them. (and Flack Field) Their Push Pull is very situational, but can add that crucial bit of threat range needed to take out key enemy heavies. Worst case scenario, they make a good tarpit. I like to use them with eKaya, pKrueger, Mohsar, Cassius, both Baldurs, and sometimes with Morvana and eKrueger.

[SillySod]

I think a better way to say it is that shifting stones are broken against bad players and are good against good players and bad against legion.

I think it would be fair to say that they are "merely average" against legion.

They are still only two points. They can still block charges, heal, and manage fury. And they are still annoying for the legion player to have to kill: every shot at a stone is a shot that isnt being piled into something else.

[skillt]

I think it would be fair to say that they are "merely average" against legion.

They are still only two points. They can still block charges, heal, and manage fury. And they are still annoying for the legion player to have to kill: every shot at a stone is a shot that isnt being piled into something else.

Hah, fair enough :-)

Will

[darkfine]

Um, how is the 8 inch a 10 inch? Is the argument that it doesn't say "completely" allowing you to place the near edge on the 8 effectively giving you the base's length in placement as well? While we are at it though, it could be a 12 inch teleport and not be game changing as long as your opponent has read the card......

The whole business seams counter-intuitive though. They are there to soak random shooting your beasts would otherwise be taking, but they heal the random shooting your beats are(n't) taking? They block charge lanes, can't we do that with terrain and not running your stuff out all willy-nilly?

Though again, my admittedly limited play experience might be somewhat jaded by the fact I have only played against Legion since my hiatus.

As far as Druids being over-costed, isn't that kind of par for the course with Circle?

[skillt]

Um, how is the 8 inch a 10 inch? Is the argument that it doesn't say "completely" allowing you to place the near edge on the 8 effectively giving you the base's length in placement as well? While we are at it though, it could be a 12 inch teleport and not be game changing as long as your opponent has read the card......

The whole business seams counter-intuitive though. They are there to soak random shooting your beasts would otherwise be taking, but they heal the random shooting your beats are(n't) taking? They block charge lanes, can't we do that with terrain and not running your stuff out all willy-nilly?

Though again, my admittedly limited play experience might be somewhat jaded by the fact I have only played against Legion since my hiatus.

As far as Druids being over-costed, isn't that kind of par for the course with Circle?

Its not really an argument -- thats how the rules work. How many times have you played an opponent that has been able to kill stealthed models while keeping his entire army 12" away from you before the setup? Most of the time when people kill shifting stones you get models out of it in trade. At 1/3 a point each, SS are pretty hard for your opponent to come out ahead on, and with lightning strike normally they do not get to retaliate. (And your teleport threat range with Kromac is 15" and Kreugar is 14" :P)

I think you are indeed jaded by Legion. They are probably circle's worst match up, and that being said, I am jaded by legion. :P

Will

[Neutralyze]

Legion is not stupid

[skillt]

Legion is not stupid

Just eyeless sight. And a lot of your feats. And the ravagore. And shepherds. And forsaken. And the shredder. And the pot. Especially the pot...

[PG_fildrigar]

Um, how is the 8 inch a 10 inch? Is the argument that it doesn't say "completely" allowing you to place the near edge on the 8 effectively giving you the base's length in placement as well? While we are at it though, it could be a 12 inch teleport and not be game changing as long as your opponent has read the card......

The whole business seams counter-intuitive though. They are there to soak random shooting your beasts would otherwise be taking, but they heal the random shooting your beats are(n't) taking? They block charge lanes, can't we do that with terrain and not running your stuff out all willy-nilly?

Though again, my admittedly limited play experience might be somewhat jaded by the fact I have only played against Legion since my hiatus.

If you need more visuals on the many uses of Shifting Stones, check this thread.

As far as Druids being over-costed, isn't that kind of par for the course with Circle?

What else do you think is over-costed in Circle? We've some fantastic choices in our faction that compare very favorably to others. Check out the Gorax. I'm surprised at his cheapness every time I play him. 4 point for a 4 Fury light warbeast with an often game winning Animus? Blood Trackers are amazingly valuable for their points cost. Same with Wold Stalkers. ( I swear they'd cost more in any other faction. ) The only things in Circle that I would call over-costed would be Ravagers and Reeves. The Druids suffer from having the too many abilities tax.

[darkfine]

So, Mohsar has been my best bet against Legion so far. He has a lot of tools that can slow them down anyway. And I keep trying the Stones, in multiples even, to no avail. I guess I am still missing something with them. And I quick question, when you teleport an enemy model are you allowed to change it's facing?

[darkfine]

If you need more visuals on the many uses of Shifting Stones, check this thread.



What else do you think is over-costed in Circle? We've some fantastic choices in our faction that compare very favorably to others. Check out the Gorax. I'm surprised at his cheapness every time I play him. 4 point for a 4 Fury light warbeast with an often game winning Animus? Blood Trackers are amazingly valuable for their points cost. Same with Wold Stalkers. ( I swear they'd cost more in any other faction. ) The only things in Circle that I would call over-costed would be Ravagers and Reeves. The Druids suffer from having the too many abilities tax.

Well all of our infantry seem over priced for what they do. Maybe the druids /w attachment make up the fact that they cost as much as a heavy, but they seem like the exception. A few of our heavys (I'm looking at you constructs) seem a little top heavy on the points for their effective return.