I don't get some of the posts about Khador..

[Vaquero]

Hey guys, been lurking here for a while and had to ask something that's been in the back of my head for a while now.

I see a lot of negativity about Khador on these forums ... not the typical "self-hating Cygnar" type, but a fair deal of posts making Khador sound like some behind the times, third rate faction or something. And I wanted to just outright ask - why?

Is it the negativity you tend to encounter on the internets?
Is there something to it?
Are the people complaining just not good at Khador?

I am really interested to hear this. I started Legion as my second faction (wanted to try Hordes) however I still - frequently - hear the call to try Khador and I've recently acquired a huge chunk of the Khador faction for a great deal from someone ..... leaving the faction to go play Menoth.

I am not familiar with Khador - played them a few times and always it was tough, win or lose, and I respect them greatly.

So, what's the deal?

[The_Bionic_Labrat]

Khador are fine. tournament results show khador is as good as anything else. and there lies the issue if you ask me.

its a variety of things.

for moaning about new stuff - look at PPs design philosophy is new stuff is different, rather than an improvement. you dont need collossals to remain competitive. New stuff gives you new options, new tactics, new strategies and new things to look out for. it helps create a liquid meta- this game is ever evolving, ever ill-defined. the second one faction gains prominence, something else knocks it off the top spot. the second one tactic becomes a staple, a counter is figured, and implemented. Old stuff always remains viable. New stuff cant and shouldnt replace old stuff. seems fair to me. And therein lies the problem for some folks -the new stuff is not "better" than the old stuff, therefore its crap. que whining and moaning.


and that leads on to the next point. warmahordes has overall excellent balance between the factions. No faction is "better". everything is very finely balanced. People whine and moan, and on some level it seems they dont want to have a "balanced" faction. they want a "better" faction. because different, but equal is another way of saying "its not a click and win button and so its useless to me". People want to be able to win without trying, against opponents who dont have a chace - like playing tekken 2-player with no one at the other controls.

but that said, with new shinies, as mentioned new tactics and new counters evolved. what worked yesterday might not work tomorrow. nothing is set in stone. So when PP bring in something new that shakes things up (such as colossals, or character restrictions) people cry foul. they have a list-mentality-where you need x,y, and z to do well. they fear change. it comes from the sense that the grass is greener on the otherside, that restrictions will unfairly hrt them, and ultimately it involves them being unable, and unwilling to change with the times. que moaning.

shrug. i dont let it bother me. Khador do fine in tournaments. they do fine for me. I win far more games than i lose. that tells me a more complete story than whining on an internet site. My adivce to you? dont let it bother you. whiners will always whine;moaners will always moan. Page 5. dont do either. mix it up. take it to the man, and take him down. smash stuff, and have fun.

[OMM_Lukav]

I think you will find it is generally always the same people complaining over and over again. A lot of the latest Khador stuff looks differently on paper than in play, and they tend to assume if it doesn't work on paper then it auto sucks.

Perfect example: Assuming in a colossal game that your opponent will always be able to hit you with two heavies and completely wipe it out thus wasting 19 points.Therefore the colossal is too fragile and worthless. At least that is how it shows on paper...

Khador is a solid faction. The negativity is the same old "haters gonna hate".

[jdeckert]

It seems also that the recent negativity has been a small number of people expressing concerns about the faction's weakness and the prevalence of counters to infantry machine followed by a very large number of people arguing that the faction is still just fine. With infantrymachine still being powerful and Khador being one of the best at running lots of troops, the appearance of more things that counter light infantry understandably makes some people nervous.

[samytheth]

screw the nay sawer i love my faction. im a very proude player and i defend my fav caster with my heart everyt ime i play. Ebutcher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the game is all about haveing fun and you should pick the faction that lets you have the most fun. we can do well at tornments and w egot great infentry and no not think because we are not a jack faction we got bad jacks. behmoth beats 09 and even a kodaik can ruin somebody day. try it out you might like it and if you do stay and fight for the empress

[philipcryx]

We are trying to keep people away from our awesome faction...I have been playing Khador since i began and yes i probably have more loses than wins but i have never felt like they where blown out of the water, outclassed loses. it either came to missed rolls followed by counter attack kill or just crap planning...Khador is awesome, 9 points and you pretty much get 5 light jacks..love it

[PG_Draxos]

There are a few of us true to our faction that love it and have always been proud of the big red machine.

Alot of the nay-saying comes from a specific and select few who feel that the amount of infantry counters that are coming out in the game are signs that Khador is a loosing faction. I disagree but not everyone listens to me

[Vaquero]

Awesome replies guys, thanks. I had suspected this was the case but wanted to hear it from some Khador players themselves. Once my Journeyman League (playing Legion) is up, definitely going to take Khador for a spin. I appreciate the feedback (though please by all means people post more if you can!)

[Seventhprophet]

I think what you are seeing is two problems really.

First, a lot of players are drawn to Khador based on the faction description, fluff or appearance of big heavy indestructible wall. Then they play and realize that most competitive lists play way different than this. People come and complain or offere their view of what the faction should be, and not what it is.

Second, you started looking at the forum right as a disappointing release for this faction was unveiled. Well... disappointing for most it seems. So this has sparked a series of threads of people debating the pros and cons of the new model.

None of that changes what our faction is good at, and when played right it is just as competitive as any other faction. Don't get scared away from the Motherland!

[philipcryx]

double post

[Raktra]

I'm fine with most of it, apart from the ones that follow the trend of "Our 'jacks are so lightly armoured" or some other baldercrap. Some spells boost armour on a single enemy 'jack, woop-de-do.

[philipcryx]

Awesome replies guys, thanks. I had suspected this was the case but wanted to hear it from some Khador players themselves. Once my Journeyman League (playing Legion) is up, definitely going to take Khador for a spin. I appreciate the feedback (though please by all means people post more if you can!)

is that you Steve J?

[Steamwitch]

I'm fine with most of it, apart from the ones that follow the trend of "Our 'jacks are so lightly armoured" or some other baldercrap. Some spells boost armour on a single enemy 'jack, woop-de-do.

pretty much this. I agree with all thats been said. Balanced game, disapointing release(saveing final judgement) and that most people who whine are the ones touting "speed 4 w/o reach is unplayable." its as said "baldercraps" haters gonna hate and players gonna play.

[John of Arc]

Actually, doesn't Khador take a disproportionate number of tourney finishes? If nothing else, we have Jamie P who is always making waves, buy I feel like last year we took a ton of tournies.

Anyway, there is whining, but its not always the same thing. There's a lot of whining about Conquest, but not everyone who thinks he's bad thinks that the faction itself is bad. Then there's people who want to rum tons of jacks and Man o War, but are sad and disillusioned because we don't have enough support to do that very well. I'd say most people think that we'll have to shift things up a little bit, but that for the most part as a faction we're just as strong as we were before- heck, if Conquest is as bad as some people are making him out to be, pretty much the only change will be replacing one of our other units with IFP, and that's only if you're really worried about POW 10's and blast damage.

[Trihnicus]

Didn't I see a breakdown of a few statistics about tournament performance which addressed this? Khador in the hands of talented players IE the top 25% of Strategy gamers performed at the highest levels. Those Khador that performed at those levels lost out to few other factions and even then only barely. Khador at the lower levels IE the bottom 75% was second or third worst above maybe Cygnar and Retribution? It was posted in a Thread that held Jamie's Con Performance as evidence that Khador performs well.

Also when some compare their performance they don't tend to do it to the average of other things in the game, it's against the best. People aren't ever terribly worried about how they perform vs. Kossite Woodsmen they want to know and are worried about how they perform against Bane thralls with Tartarus. I don't want to know how well Conquest stacks up to Mountain King I want to know how well it stacks up to an Armor buffed Stormwall.

It also comes down to a perception that the new releases are designed to change the game. "If they didn't expect people to buy these pieces and have them change the meta of the game why would they produce them?" So you look at a Stormwall and factor how it could beat you and you aren't terribly worried about the price tag. This feeds into "What are the tools I'm being given to deal with the enemies I'm frequently harassed by?" And you see the Conquest. It appears lackluster when you try to plan out how to fit it into your own list and you still have the memory of the thought that the Stormwall could destroy your army under ideal circumstances. Then you try to fit it in your list and are forced upon the realization of exactly how much 19 points is. Well isn't this Bull**** the Stormwall can ruin my army and the Conquest on the other hand just doesn't appear worth it

So if the new releases are designed to change the meta of the game what does that mean for Winter Guard Death Stars? It doesn't bode well. But one of the problems is that points are finite. IF Nemo takes a Stormwall and a Thunderhead and Storm Striders he isn't going to have terribly many points left.

Then there is Seventh Prophet's point that many people desire a heavily armoured juggernaut out of Khador. I have to admit as will many others that it's what we desired when we first read the army book and saw the models. "Cool I can play the toughest army around!" But the army doesn't perform like that. The Heavy armour faction gets stacking defense buffs. When that wasn't what you desired to begin with it's very easy to see the flaws in the playstyle without seeing it's strengths or it's cost efficiency.

So you wait for future releases because they clearly are going to influence the game in the direction that was hinted at yes? Lvlad is on a horse? COOL that means he will want to take Uhlans right? This means we should be able to field Uhlans in competitive circles in our current metas and they will perform as well as Winterguard. And then the release comes out and he does in fact fix many of their problems but doesn't really address the fact that they aren't a cost efficient alternative to things like Kayazy or WG. When you view Lvlad in terms of what does he do to advance the playstyle that has been desired since we began the game he fails. Each release will continue to fuel disappointment and angst because it would take a rewrite of the game and our factions current rules in order to provide the tools we need to run Heavy Infantry and Heavy Cavalry and Armoured brigades well.

So every time a release that devalue's the playstyle admirers are shoehorned into to be popularly effective is announced it feels like that concept is being attacked. And then they fail to provide alternatives that you have desired since the beginning and it begins to feel slated against you.

Ignore the fact that Winterguard & Joe are still one of the nastiest things around the world feels turned against your favorite Red Army.

So if you want to understand the dissent you will have to understand these misconceptions and failed expectations.

[Havock]

There are a few of us true to our faction that love it and have always been proud of the big red machine.

Alot of the nay-saying comes from a specific and select few who feel that the amount of infantry counters that are coming out in the game are signs that Khador is a loosing faction. I disagree but not everyone listens to me

I am fairly sure that Khador is not the only one suffering from it; most warmachine armies tend to have infantry with warjacks as support instead of the other way around (which is fine really, considering the warjacks are tank equivalents and the scale of things)

For our faction that goes double because we do not have lights (and the berserker is too slow for many people's tastes), most of our effective stuff is expensive.

A coloassal is still going to be hurting after getting a Mauler at +3 strength to the face.

[Wisible]

[QUOTE=Vaquero;1484445
So, what's the deal?[/QUOTE]

The deal is a few fanboys with little better to do than register their disgust on the internet from their parents' basement can't say anything besides "broadsides is a trap/V3 sucks/our castors can't run jacks/everything sucks except for kayazy and WGDS".

[Matthaeus]

Nice post Trihnicus. Probably the most objective one so far.

I for one wonder if the faction works as its designers actually envisioned.

[x3tsniper]

So many new people in the khador forums!

It is all an optical illusion!

Also, vlad3 is amazing. Just saying to any naysayers, but conquest blooows.

[profparm]

Khador is like Russia. We'll ***** and moan and complain about the way things are here, but we're still patriotic and dedicated.

Although if the Khadoran forums were more like the era of Russia it was based on, then whenever the mods caught us *****ing and moaning and complaining, we'd be taken out back and shot....

[PG_Draxos]

Khador is like Russia. We'll ***** and moan and complain about the way things are here, but we're still patriotic and dedicated.

Although if the Khadoran forums were more like the era of Russia it was based on, then whenever the mods caught us *****ing and moaning and complaining, we'd be taken out back and shot....

I'd be fine with that.

[MediumYellow]

The issue is that there is the sinking feeling that we don't have options beyond our light infantry that are equal in power to our light infantry. We have excellent and diverse light infantry. Doom Reaver, WG, Pikemen, Kayazy, greylords. All wonderful. We even have acess to crazy stuff like boomhowlers, nyss hunters, and pirates. So we clearly have some of the best light infantry options in the game.

However when we look at other factions, we see that they can run more balanced forces, with less small based infantry. Menoth has excellent light infantry, jacks, and heavy infantry, and a kick *** battle engine.

Cryx probably has the best jack caster in the game. (however I think infantry hate might punish them pretty hard also, we may be in the same boat here, not sure)

So we look at our jacks. Our jacks are awesome. We have excellent jacks that help our armies by being toolboxes of destruction. However, we have trouble running them in great numbers. We don't have someone like Mortenebra, Nemo3, or Kraye . Karchev and Harkevich help jacks, but they aren't mortenebra. In another thread, there was a Karchev list mentioned that had only beast 09. It took a hardcore tourney. My point being that even our supposed jack caster takes one powerful jack and helps him exclusively for assassinations.

Heavy Infantry? Well Man-O-Wars are pretty slow, even if you run them they seem slow. Armor 17, 8 wounds is a lot of meat to chew, but the issue is that for every turn they aren't in combat, someone is able to set up even more traps for them or just shoot them. So that armor doesn't really mean much if you are getting shot at twice as much, or if you are going to get charged at by more devastating forces. Menoth has built in speed buffs, weapon master, wound allocation, and all sorts of stuff to make this worth while though, where as our man-o-wars do not.

I do not think khador is bad. Khador is really good actually. The conquest has its place, vlad3 looks pretty powerful also. Considering the new cavalry we are getting, I think he will be even more important to us in the future.

Really if they fix man-o-wars, khador will be OP.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

Lets put it this way:

Of all the people complaining about Vlad3 and Colossal - virtually none of them have ever played even a single game with either model.

The people that have actually played them on the table, have done so for some number of games that have been played in just over 7 days.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'll take "doom" predictions about those models from both of those groups with a grain a salt the size of Texas.

-Rick

[nerdkingdan]

I have a different opinion than most I think, I've been reading these forums now for a few months, I spend time on them every day.

I actually think there are more people yelling at people who "complain" than actual complaints, though I would admit I did not count them.

The truth is I feel like some one in the middle as a new player, I see the point of those who are complaining, and I can agree that they are not necessarily writing about it in a constructive way, but I also feel like people are too quick to jump all over them then actually look at what they are saying.

I do feel like as a new player I find a level of frustration assembling my lists cause It does appear like I am locked in a series of choices of infantry, more infantry or spammed infantry. Also when I look at my other faction, I feel like my khador choices are better, even if they are all infantry. Khador is a great army clearly one of the best, howerver the lists themselves are missing some variety some people are looking for. In other words... both camps have a point, if only there were a place we could all discuss it :-b

[DemonCalibre]

This complaining is all apart of the cycle.

People freak out when new models come out that *counter* their current strategies, the thing is those models don't always make the cut, and the perfect Theorymachined shut down of Khador rarely happens.

Why? Simple, you have two lists to face 11 factions, you can run your Khador ultimate counter, but that puts a ton of weight on you generalist list to beat, Legion/Cygnar/Cryx all at the same time.

Edit:
Also I don't get the Hate on conquest, I have played him six times since we found out his rules, and I have had mixed results, but none of them I would call bad. I had a couple of games where he won me the game, I had a couple games where he didn't do much, and a couple of games where he really came up short. I think he adds an interesting new dimension to Khador, with our Superior Mechanics, and his near inability to get one turned has some interesting applications, but even 6 games, I don't really felt I have delved that deep into what Conquest can do.

[PG_Draxos]

The issue is that there is the sinking feeling that we don't have options beyond our light infantry that are equal in power to our light infantry. We have excellent and diverse light infantry. Doom Reaver, WG, Pikemen, Kayazy, greylords. All wonderful. We even have acess to crazy stuff like boomhowlers, nyss hunters, and pirates. So we clearly have some of the best light infantry options in the game.

However when we look at other factions, we see that they can run more balanced forces, with less small based infantry. Menoth has excellent light infantry, jacks, and heavy infantry, and a kick *** battle engine.

Cryx probably has the best jack caster in the game. (however I think infantry hate might punish them pretty hard also, we may be in the same boat here, not sure)

So we look at our jacks. Our jacks are awesome. We have excellent jacks that help our armies by being toolboxes of destruction. However, we have trouble running them in great numbers. We don't have someone like Mortenebra, Nemo3, or Kraye . Karchev and Harkevich help jacks, but they aren't mortenebra. In another thread, there was a Karchev list mentioned that had only beast 09. It took a hardcore tourney. My point being that even our supposed jack caster takes one powerful jack and helps him exclusively for assassinations.

Heavy Infantry? Well Man-O-Wars are pretty slow, even if you run them they seem slow. Armor 17, 8 wounds is a lot of meat to chew, but the issue is that for every turn they aren't in combat, someone is able to set up even more traps for them or just shoot them. So that armor doesn't really mean much if you are getting shot at twice as much, or if you are going to get charged at by more devastating forces. Menoth has built in speed buffs, weapon master, wound allocation, and all sorts of stuff to make this worth while though, where as our man-o-wars do not.

I do not think khador is bad. Khador is really good actually. The conquest has its place, vlad3 looks pretty powerful also. Considering the new cavalry we are getting, I think he will be even more important to us in the future.

Really if they fix man-o-wars, khador will be OP.

I feel that your post is inacurrate and written from a new players perspective.

One of the things I would like to adress is the constant comparing across factions. For example you state that PoM is capable of running more balanced lists. Something that I find to be entirely false. While Khador and PoM play very similarly they have some key differences in them. One of them is Khadors versitility or jack of all trades approach vs PoM's synergetic and reactive approach to the game. Khador has more play styles offered to them through the plethora of casters that they have while PoM casters ultimately do similar things in different ways. For example eKreoss is going to beat your face in just like Reznik or eFeora and they will all have spell denial involved some how.

Khadors strength as a factions isn't our infantry. It's our versitily. Almost every play style in the game is afforded to us and we can do them all very well. From attrition to control to ranged assault we can most anything while many factions are stuck inside of their own set. For all of its power, Cryx has a few specific set of skills avalible to them and they are forced to rely on banes, banes and more banes.

In your point on Warjacks and our inability to run them like Mortenebra is some what ammusing to me. You are basically stating that we do not have the shinies that other factions have and that is a reason to cry havock. I have stated several times that comparing across factions is a bad idea and should be avoided unless that is the singular purprose of the discussion; which this is not.

Khador is not a faction designed to run jack heavy and while we have the ability we are not that great at it. So be it, that's the stick of the faction and if you really hate it then go play PoM or a Hordes faction.

Heavy Infantry? Well I already said not to compare across factions but oh well I'll bite. Ours are slower but we have a faction with multiple speed buffs for them, ours hit as hard in a faction that helps that and they hit more often. Another point to make is that if Exemplar Bastions were a 6/9 unit like MoW they might not be seen as much. Meanwhile MoW have always had a following and if you want to take the time to use them, they can become a wrecking force. I have a major event coming up in my area and 2 of my 3 lists use MoW to get the job done and I am confident in them.

Khador isn't bad and a great deal of the whining going on is the result of people complaining that they don't like the toys that they have when they haven't even tried them out. Or it's the complaint that their toys aren't uber broken like they were in the past.

[Trihnicus]

Our toys are also harder to use and require a degree of finesse that is at odds with all the "axe to face" patriotism. For the third most common faction it has some of the least user friendly rules. Even if they are less "tricksy" getting someone to sit still for you to pound them in the face requires a lot of skill... particularly if you are slower than they are. You can't seriously expect those having issues with it already to welcome anything that makes it harder with open arms.

It's just plain rude to take the confidence you have in your own abilities and project childishness on to others for not possessing the same.

[MediumYellow]

I feel that your post is inacurrate and written from a new players perspective.

One of the things I would like to adress is the constant comparing across factions. For example you state that PoM is capable of running more balanced lists. Something that I find to be entirely false. While Khador and PoM play very similarly they have some key differences in them. One of them is Khadors versitility or jack of all trades approach vs PoM's synergetic and reactive approach to the game. Khador has more play styles offered to them through the plethora of casters that they have while PoM casters ultimately do similar things in different ways. For example eKreoss is going to beat your face in just like Reznik or eFeora and they will all have spell denial involved some how.

Khadors strength as a factions isn't our infantry. It's our versitily. Almost every play style in the game is afforded to us and we can do them all very well. From attrition to control to ranged assault we can most anything while many factions are stuck inside of their own set. For all of its power, Cryx has a few specific set of skills avalible to them and they are forced to rely on banes, banes and more banes.

In your point on Warjacks and our inability to run them like Mortenebra is some what ammusing to me. You are basically stating that we do not have the shinies that other factions have and that is a reason to cry havock. I have stated several times that comparing across factions is a bad idea and should be avoided unless that is the singular purprose of the discussion; which this is not.

Khador is not a faction designed to run jack heavy and while we have the ability we are not that great at it. So be it, that's the stick of the faction and if you really hate it then go play PoM or a Hordes faction.

Heavy Infantry? Well I already said not to compare across factions but oh well I'll bite. Ours are slower but we have a faction with multiple speed buffs for them, ours hit as hard in a faction that helps that and they hit more often. Another point to make is that if Exemplar Bastions were a 6/9 unit like MoW they might not be seen as much. Meanwhile MoW have always had a following and if you want to take the time to use them, they can become a wrecking force. I have a major event coming up in my area and 2 of my 3 lists use MoW to get the job done and I am confident in them.

Khador isn't bad and a great deal of the whining going on is the result of people complaining that they don't like the toys that they have when they haven't even tried them out. Or it's the complaint that their toys aren't uber broken like they were in the past.

To clarify I was explaining a sentiment. It also appears that you didn't read the entirety of my post, because my point was that over all, khador is a good faction, and that if/when our heavy infantry recieves a buff, we may be the most powerful. I don't think Khador sucks, and if did I wouldn't play them.

1) I don't see why I should not compare across factions. If we are talking about faction balance (which is ultimately what this discussion is about), some sort of comparison does need to be made otherwise all we have to go on when looking at them is convention statistics, which are warped by the skill of the players. Now obviously I don't expect Khador to get a slice of everybody's pie. We don't need arcane assassin nor do we need weapon master on everybody. My point was that heavy infantry have the disadvantage of being slow and easy to see. Which makes them vunerable to a lot of threats. In return they need to get a benefit in line with their faction's theme.

We can try other methods of analysis. Intrafaction comparison doens't work because the roles of other units are different, there for the comparisons are just difficult. Comparing, cav, light infantry, and heavy infantry probably creates issues that are worse than interfaction comparisons. Anecdotes don't work because if I were to say "I tried the eIrusk brick and it didn't work" you could just say "Well you are a bad player". So what is left? Faith in privateer press?


2) All that I meant by a balanced force was a mixture of defense types. In that context it was obvious that I was taking about small based infantry, medium based infantry, and warjacks. Where as our most powerful options still seem to have small bases with a certaindefense type. If you would like to address that point more specifically please do.

Your point about Khador's versatlity does seem to be valid, however I am not entirely sure what its relevance is to the discussion. I did not state that our small based infantry was our strength, I said that our selection of small based (light) infantry was really good. Obviously WGDS, Doom Reavers, Pikemen, Greylords, WGRC, are all powerful options with an extremely diverse set of tactical possibilities between them.

I never said that our lack of a Mortenebra was a reason to cry havoc, ever. I said that our Jacks served a specific purpose with in our faction that made it unrealistic to create a full jack list. Beyond this our lack of a Mortenebra made it even less realistic. It is just my impression that this is an aspect of our faction's design. Even in the lore it is implied that due to the lack of cortexes and such, Jacks are built to be singular support pieces. Where as Cryx can just spam their stuff by salvaging the dead and broken machines of other nations. It seems intentional and that is okay.

I didn't even realise that bastions were 5/8 until you mentioned it. Since cross faction comparison, when done rationally and in context, are valid, this only solidifies my point that Man-O-Wars are underpowered. If you look at what bastions get for being 8 points, and democorps for being 9 nine points, its gross. I do not want democorps to have blessed weapons, or weapon master, or magic weapons, or sanguine bond. I just want them to have at least one other khador-esque benefit. Basically give them shatter storm or something, or a UA that gives it to them. The option of two decent attacks or one really good attack simply does not seem to be worth the downside of being so slow and vunerable to ranged attacks.

Even then, I do not think that Democorps are even that bad, that was never my point. My main issue is with shocktroopers and bombadiers. I think bombadiers are just terrible. Shocktroopers fall into the previously described trap of shield wall. Where if they shield wall, their extra armor is offset by the fact that they are moving so slowly that it becomes worthless tactically.

3) Your consistent comparison of my concerns and other people's concerns with that of children's is not welcome. I never disrespected you. In fact I find the whole idea that anyone in our community can imply the anyone else is childish, is absurd, when ultimately we are all playing army men with dice.

[scout's honor]

Another point to make is that if Exemplar Bastions were a 6/9 unit like MoW they might not be seen as much.

The only point that makes is that Bastions are undercosted or MoW are overcosted - either way, this is not a point in favour of Khador being A-ok.

That said, I firmly believe our faction is still just fine. Even if we were in a dip, which I don't necessarily believe, that'd part of the cycle. Some factions "win" when new books are released, others "lose" - as long as it's not by too significant a margin and not consistently the same factions making out like bandits and the same factions getting the short end of the stick, that's not a problem. I feel Cygnar got a bit more out of Wrath than most and will likely get more out of Colossals than most, but it's not like they're sweeping up at large events - they can stand getting a bit of wind in their sails. As long as we get some interesting and useful stuff too, I don't mind that one bit.

[bitmatic]

I blame the Mythbusters.... Lots of people on the Khador forums suffer from Mythbusters-syndrome; 'If i can't make it work - nobody can'
Most of the whining on these forums come from people who refuse to look at their own shortcomings as the reason they loose, and consequently need to blame something else. Some blame Dice, others blame the whole faction.

Khador isn't the easiest faction to play well, but tournament results, both old and recent, clearly shows that in the hands of capable players Khador performs on par with the other factions.

[Matthaeus]

Most of the whining on these forums come from people who refuse to look at their own shortcomings as the reason they loose, and consequently need to blame something else. Some blame Dice, others blame the whole faction.

See, I'm just a spectator in this "debate", but I have to agree with MediumYellow on his 3) : what I see is one side trying to articulate their point with arguments, and another side which is being scathingly dismissive with a generous helping of sweeping statements ala "lol noob, khador's fine", yours being but one example.

I know which one sounds more credible to me.

[John of Arc]

I do too. I'll believe the people who have more experience.

[scout's honor]

... what I see is one side trying to articulate their point with arguments, and another side which is being scathingly dismissive with a generous helping of sweeping statements ala "lol noob, khador's fine", yours being but one example.

I see some of both and quite a lot that doesn't fall under either, to be honest.

At least it's been a while since I've seen threads about the official party line being that Khador is a jack faction and that MoW are awesome, so things are looking up.

[bitmatic]

See, I'm just a spectator in this "debate", but I have to agree with MediumYellow on his 3) : what I see is one side trying to articulate their point with arguments, and another side which is being scathingly dismissive with a generous helping of sweeping statements ala "lol noob, khador's fine", yours being but one example.

I know which one sounds more credible to me.

I don't really know where you see me comparing anyone with children or calling people noobs.

What i am trying to say is: Tournament results show that Khador is at least on par with the other factions in terms of strength.

So, if anyone is consistently loosing or under-performing with Khador, whining about it is not very helpful or constructive. They would be a lot better off focusing their energy on the one thing they can actually change - which is the way they themselves play the game.
I have been through the process myself. Loosing a lot and blaming whatever/whoever was nearest... until i realised that all the time i was loosing with Khador players like JamieP was out there conquering the world with not only the same faction, but in many instances almost the same lists as mine. This leaves you at a crossroads where you can either continue whining, or come to the logical conclusion that the real problem is yourself and the way you play the game.

This may seem very direct to some, but believe me, i am not trying to call anyone noobs - I am actually trying to help

[philipcryx]

I dont get the MoW hate, I for one love the MoW Demo Corp they have yet to fail me in a game....BUT those MoW Shocktroopers on the other hand cant seem to get it together..strange since they are pretty much the same stats.

Pesonally i think it comes down to what you are playing against at your local store. Khador are fun to play, that is all you really need to know because at the end of the day/night of gaming, did you have fun? Sure winning is fun but no matter what army you are playing, what "unstoppable list" you build someone will probably beat you with a list you think is crappier. End of the day it comes down to the dice...

[hoya4life3381]

I think the majority of seasoned players would agree that Khador is well-balanced against other factions in terms of winning and losing. Given EQUALLY SKILLED PLAYERS, Khador IMO doesn't do any worse for wear.

Disclaimer: All of my below comments apply to semi-competitive or competitive list building. If that's not your cup of tea, feel free to totally disregard my comments.

The main complaints to me seem to revolve around in-faction identity and playstyle of Khador itself. Khador has never been the jack faction that many envision. This identify conflict has been ongoing pretty much since middle of MK1 and Warmachine became standardized from a competitive perspective (generalizing for sake of time). In MK1, one jack lists back were every bit as common as today if not more common. At 500 pts (35 today), it's the same with most competitive lists taking 1 expensive heavy (Beast, Spriggan, and Behemoth our ambassadors). However, at 750 pts (50 today), competitive lists generally still only took 1 heavy where as today most 50 pt lists today have generally gone to 2 heavies. IMO, the changes in MKII to improve jack competitiveness HAVE made a significant difference.

I think what has happend is that our VARIETY of infantry and solos that are competitive have gone down quite a bit. In MK1, the top infantry units were IFP, MOW DC (simply because of their super low pts cost), Greylords, and Widdowmakers. Most lists had either IFP or MOW DC and both Widdows and Greylords. Solos were also quite prevalent as well due to the odd points costs associated with building lists with hundreds of points. You were forced to tuck in a Manhunter or other solos because that's all that was left assuming you wanted to keep the rest of your core army.

When MKII and the change in points cost happened, it really FLATTENED out a lot of the inter-army choices. Solos across the board became more expensive for less abilities and a direct opportunity cost can be drawn to taking them. In the past, a solo would simply slot in due to points. Now due to this point system structure, I feel (this is purely my opinion) that you are more likely to sub out a solo for a full/fuller unit because the trade-off in pts is a lot easier to make and doesn't have any rough leftovers. Indirectly, infantry units, particularly core ones such TFG, Mechthralls, and WGI actually became cheaper and more powerful RELATIVELY than before.

Thus, a lot of variety in terms of units and solos like Widdowmakers, Greylords, and MOW were lost in the transition. What we're left with basically became a more homogenous force of generally high-defense infantry coupled with the same relative jack composition. While it's still highly effective and wins a lot of games, it does get a bit repetitive if you don't force yourself out of it and isn't the ideal of many players.

[x3tsniper]

Shatterstorm can hurt your own models. I would be very reluctant to take a UA that gave it to a melee unit, even if they had reach.

My buddy used to joke that Khador was the easy mode faction, that we just walk forward and kill everything. A lot of people seem to think that this is actually true. This is how you lose a lot of games even if you are playing MoW. A lot of armies are based on being able to put one or two key models in a certain place at a certain time with buff X. Khador doesn't rely on this form of play nearly as much as almost every other faction.

If you take the arc nodes out in a pdenny list, it is going to go terribly for her. If molik karn dies in an eMakeda list, things are probably going to go down hill quickly, Bronzeback or no. No game is set in stone, and every caster can be a threat, but I am never playing a game where if one or two of my models goes down, be they jacks or otherwise do I think to myself, well hell, there goes my best shot(except my Harkevich list).

I know I doom and gloom a bit on these boards, mainly for lack of anything better to do at times(skorne forums are always so quiet =/), but Khador is a great faction as long as you put in the time to learn what we can do.

Time for some breakfast, soonish!

[PG_Draxos]

I do realize that your post stated that your love Khador and while I am glad your do, that wasn't the part of it that I wanted to adress.

Two things:
1 When comparing across factions you can't compare models to models but rather abilities to deal with things. For example Cryx is an infantry based faction but isn't as affected by the new anti infantry tech because they have more high arm/immune to blast damage pieces. Comparisions like that are reasonable but if you compare IFP to Satyxis Raiders or Banes then your only going to get frusterated since you have to start with models that do similar but still different things and then you start adding in faction buffs and abilities.

2 I did not compare anyone to children although I admit I said that some people have a tendency to whine on the forums. I find this statement validated by the series of threads that we had a few months ago asking people to stop whining over the slightest thing, like Nemo3's gun.

[DemonCalibre]

Shatterstorm can hurt your own models.

Well...that is me cheating..

At least I lost anyway, but a thing to remember.

[Kuarnix]

This complaining is all apart of the cycle.

I can't find my copy of the Doom Cycle, but this is pretty close. Just replace technology with release and visibility with forum attitude -