Witchfire MkII? AKA the new rules and you...

[Modhail]

Now that the new RPG is on the horizon, it left me wondering what will happen to the Witchfire trilogy?
I fear it will fall by the wayside as a bit of Iron Kingdoms memorabilia, but to be honest, I'm rather hoping for am update or re-release...
I know it isn't contemporary to the current state of the Iron Kingdoms setting anymore, but I rather like the idea of introducing a new crop of players to the new rules by this iconic story.
Come to think of it, if PP would only provide an online article or pdf with updated stats for all characters (and monsters?), they would be magnificent. (I mean, even more so. )

So, would you like to see the Witchfire live on? Or do you have other plans/ideas on how to introduce the new rules to (new) players in a memorable way?

[Mastervalrik]

Now that the new RPG is on the horizon, it left me wondering what will happen to the Witchfire trilogy?
I fear it will fall by the wayside as a bit of Iron Kingdoms memorabilia, but to be honest, I'm rather hoping for am update or re-release...
I know it isn't contemporary to the current state of the Iron Kingdoms setting anymore, but I rather like the idea of introducing a new crop of players to the new rules by this iconic story.
Come to think of it, if PP would only provide an online article or pdf with updated stats for all characters (and monsters?), they would be magnificent. (I mean, even more so. )

So, would you like to see the Witchfire live on? Or do you have other plans/ideas on how to introduce the new rules to (new) players in a memorable way?

I ordered the first volume today to go along with the other D20 Ironkingdoms stuff, but I would look for them to come up with a diffrent openning adventure for the new rules.

[StJason]

Honestly, there is not a lot of mechanical issues in the story. With new/updated characters, it'd run fine.

(I wish PP would have used the Skorne Mammoth from there rather then "Bigger Titan" that they did...)

[Sosthenes]

Honestly, there is not a lot of mechanical issues in the story.

On the other hand, there are lots of story issues in the story. (But hey, it started out the Iron Kingdoms, was one of the first D20 adventures at all and I guess/hope that the writers learned a bit since then, so I don't want to sound too negative)

But the big issue is that it's pretty tied to a certain historic point, and that's quite a few years before the IKRPG 2 timeline.

That did give me an idea when I revisited it recently. I didn't follow it in the end, and decided to do most of the campaign before the war, but I thought about doing the "WFT" in a somewhat abbreviated versions as some kind of "0-level/Teen Titans" adventure. Alexia is 16 ? but so are all the PCs, too. Preferably Alexia would have been one of them, but chosen to follow her own dark path. Mix the Cyriss temple with the Tomb of the Lost Souls (originally built for the dead, now part of a Cyriss cult who built all those Grimtooth traps). Alexia is going here to get her magic supercharged, but right when the "final battle" is at its height, news arrive: Vinter has returned. Now beat him up. The End. (So: No swamp action, no criminal gangs, no big infiltration of occupied Corvis, boil everything down to one adventure.)

Then do the Dragonlance bit, and continue the group after they meet again 5 years later. War in full tilt, they're all young adults now.

Depending on the rule system and preferred campaign style, this could be a "Scooby Doo" group, barely fending off all the horrors on the way to the tomb, more trying to convince Alexia to quit, or really a bit more "superheroic", where Alexia might not be the only one discovering powers, ambition and fate.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

I'm less concerned about WFT in MK2. I think it could be fun to run, but that shouldn't be a major issue if its just a matter of converting some NPC stats. I'm more interested in the next trillogy. Why retread WFT when we can pick up with the store a couple of years later. Alexia is now 18-20 and is wrapped up in all sorts of not good stuff. Let's advance the story more

-Rick

[Weaselcreature]

But the big issue is that it's pretty tied to a certain historic point, and that's quite a few years before the IKRPG 2 timeline.

This. With a new starting date much later than WFT, I don't think they'll revise it at all. It's already happened, and it's now part of the world fiction. It would be neat if they had an official revision that converted all the characters over, but I imagine there will be a fan or two here that does it themselves.

[StJason]

That did give me an idea when I revisited it recently. I didn't follow it in the end, and decided to do most of the campaign before the war, but I thought about doing the "WFT" in a somewhat abbreviated versions as some kind of "0-level/Teen Titans" adventure. Alexia is 16 – but so are all the PCs, too. Preferably Alexia would have been one of them, but chosen to follow her own dark path. Mix the Cyriss temple with the Tomb of the Lost Souls (originally built for the dead, now part of a Cyriss cult who built all those Grimtooth traps). Alexia is going here to get her magic supercharged, but right when the "final battle" is at its height, news arrive: Vinter has returned. Now beat him up. The End. (So: No swamp action, no criminal gangs, no big infiltration of occupied Corvis, boil everything down to one adventure.).

Alternately (and I've seen this in an adventure or two before), you could integrate into an existing campaign. Your PCs have to research something that happened during that Longest Night, so go to the University/Library/wherever, where they come across an account of the journal of one of the adventurers who was there. The PCs get to take the parts of the actual actors on that night (whether give them new characters or just say 'your current guy is close enough to "Bill the Wizard" to count!') and run through a compressed version. Exposit the connecting parts, give the players a good overview, let them fight out the big dramatic battles.

[Psychomancer]

I'm less concerned about WFT in MK2. I think it could be fun to run, but that shouldn't be a major issue if its just a matter of converting some NPC stats. I'm more interested in the next trillogy. Why retread WFT when we can pick up with the store a couple of years later. Alexia is now 18-20 and is wrapped up in all sorts of not good stuff. Let's advance the story more

-Rick

I agree. Frankly, I never found Alexia to be that compelling of a character to start with. I say new edition, new characters, new adventures, new setting.

I think someplace like Five Fingers or Midfast would be good places, and not just because they're in Ord. Although I've never heard any solid announcements for adventures, or anything beyond the core 4 books, for that matter.

[nub5]

PP has stated they don't intend to redo it. Besides, if they did redo and my PC was an Hero of Crovis, I'd demand they put such an important person in their figure line. Now how many hero of corvis figures they have to sculpt?

[Modhail]

Sosthenes, I like the idea of using the WFT as an "emergence story" for the characters.
StJason, the research based flashback is also a cool approach. Thanks for the ideas, guys!

I guess I'm just hoping for an update because I never had a chance to run, or play, the WFT before.
On the other hand, I also have to agree with the others:
More (new) adventures = more good!

[Waxahachie]

I'd rather see Privateer's writers put out a new adventure trilogy altogether, rather than just giving us the WFT again.

[Rapier]

Honestly, there is not a lot of mechanical issues in the story. With new/updated characters, it'd run fine.

(I wish PP would have used the Skorne Mammoth from there rather then "Bigger Titan" that they did...)

You mean like the Skorne Mammoth they said would be the Colossal for the Skorne in a recent NQ? Although the battle engine turtle is also a sweet model imo.

As for the The Witchfire - I expect someone at PP will do a free PDF with the npc stats converted over at some point - or else a fan will do it and PP will endorse it.

Having run it though, I think PP could do a lot better, it has quite a few bits that can easily "go wrong" - and some parts that feel like they go on a bit for the sake of dungeon crawling. That said it does have some amazing bits too - and I've always wondered why the Cyriss haven't made it into Warmachine when the PP team clearly have a very strong identity for them even as far back as the Witchfire. I've been waiting for a Father Lucan (if that's his name it's been a while) to get a cool model for years.

[Mastervalrik]

I have the first volume otw, I'm going to run it this summer for Son, daughter and brother. Then when the new RPG drops move them to new game.

[Sosthenes]

I think there's a lot of stuff you could "salvage" from the WFT, though. I'd pay good money for the Corvis equivalent of the Five Fingers book. Maybe even with a few bits about the swamplands and Widower's Wood.

[PG_Enazel]

I plan to run a Witchfire game for a group of friends, who while know some of the Iron Kingdoms background from the wargame, but not in the depth, so I thought it be a good intro for them. Just want the new edition to come out.

[StJason]

You mean like the Skorne Mammoth they said would be the Colossal for the Skorne in a recent NQ? Although the battle engine turtle is also a sweet model imo.

Not the Battle Engine. The Mammoth. The new Skorne Gargantua.

Cool:



Disappointing:


Bigger Titan < Dinosaur with cannon-howda.

[Terraneaux]

Honestly, the Witchfire Trilogy works better as setting backstory than an adventure - it's not really that gameable, since so much story time and attention is spent on Alexia, as opposed to the PC's, who have precious little power to affect things. I think it should be left as a piece of setting history and a new sort of 'event' should be concocted for MK II.

[Infested Paladin]

I think I drunkenly boasted to Simon almost two years ago that if the community didn't convert the WFT post-launch, I'd do it myself.

I need to stop making drunken boasts.

[Rapier]

I think I drunkenly boasted to Simon almost two years ago that if the community didn't convert the WFT post-launch, I'd do it myself.

I need to stop making drunken boasts.

Good of you to Volunteer - good luck with converting the careers on some of those guys. I can't imagine the Gatorman Bokor or Cyriss clockwork preists will be that easy. I'd like my copy of this fan conversion before book 3 comes out please :P

In all seriousness I don't think it will be that hard.

[Whimper]

I think I drunkenly boasted to Simon almost two years ago that if the community didn't convert the WFT post-launch, I'd do it myself.

I need to stop making drunken boasts.

Infested, if you need some sober help with that, I'd be game.

[StJason]

Same here. I even have the collected version... somewhere...

[Psychomancer]

Count me in, too.

[Munindk]

I'm game as well, although the adventure needs some modification, the story is too iconic just to ignore.

[Whimper]

Well, I think you we can stick to updating NPC, monster, trap, and equipment stats for a start. There are already plenty of threads detailing how GMs can tailor the trilogy to suit their needs.


Oh wait, those threads all died with the old forums.

[Munindk]

I'm on board with the updating of the monsters/stats overall and then perhaps we write a small text called something like "Advice on running the WFT"?

[BType]

Honestly, the Witchfire Trilogy works better as setting backstory than an adventure - it's not really that gameable, since so much story time and attention is spent on Alexia, as opposed to the PC's, who have precious little power to affect things. I think it should be left as a piece of setting history and a new sort of 'event' should be concocted for MK II.

Agreed. Plus, I'm pretty damn sure Kell Bailoch's profile in the Wargame suggests that all the characters involved with the Witchfire Trilogy except for him and Alexia, and other major NPC's are dead. They might has well have been anyway, since the big points of the adventure is just you watching them doing cool stuff anyway....

[BType]

Honestly, the Witchfire Trilogy works better as setting backstory than an adventure - it's not really that gameable, since so much story time and attention is spent on Alexia, as opposed to the PC's, who have precious little power to affect things. I think it should be left as a piece of setting history and a new sort of 'event' should be concocted for MK II.

Agreed. Plus, I'm pretty damn sure Kell Bailoch's profile in the Wargame suggests that all the characters involved with the Witchfire Trilogy except for him and Alexia, and other major NPC's are dead. They might has well have been anyway, since the big points of the adventure is just you watching them doing cool stuff anyway....

[Blackraine]

As with any RPG, there's always room for time travel! I'd have no problem hurling my players back in time to the events of the Witchfire Trilogy for a while, gaining insights they wouldn't have been able to get just from reading the accounts in a book somewhere.

[Rapier]

Not the Battle Engine. The Mammoth. The new Skorne Gargantua.

Bigger Titan < Dinosaur with cannon-howda.

I didn't quote your pictures to save space, but I don't know if I entirely agree with you. I think the new Skorne Mammoth (looking like a giant titan) is quite a cool addition to the Skorne - although I'm not entirely sure I want the pachyderms to be able to grow that large so I am waiting for the fluff.

I also wonder if in the fluff that dinasaur is meant to still exist as an even bigger thing that the skorne mammoth or if this is an evolution of the setting now that they've done more design work on the skorne lands, and the dinosaurs are out, replaced by the titans.

As for the witchfire conversion I'd be very happy to contribute as well - although I do think as I said before, some of it will need to wait for more than just the careers from the first book.

[PPS_Simon]

I didn't quote your pictures to save space, but I don't know if I entirely agree with you. I think the new Skorne Mammoth (looking like a giant titan) is quite a cool addition to the Skorne - although I'm not entirely sure I want the pachyderms to be able to grow that large so I am waiting for the fluff.

I also wonder if in the fluff that dinasaur is meant to still exist as an even bigger thing that the skorne mammoth or if this is an evolution of the setting now that they've done more design work on the skorne lands, and the dinosaurs are out, replaced by the titans.

As for the witchfire conversion I'd be very happy to contribute as well - although I do think as I said before, some of it will need to wait for more than just the careers from the first book.

The new Skorne Mammoth is of a species related to, but distinct from, the titans. The beast that Pendrake incorrectly described as a mammoth is an entirely different creature.

[StJason]

I didn't quote your pictures to save space, but I don't know if I entirely agree with you. I think the new Skorne Mammoth (looking like a giant titan) is quite a cool addition to the Skorne - although I'm not entirely sure I want the pachyderms to be able to grow that large so I am waiting for the fluff.

I also wonder if in the fluff that dinasaur is meant to still exist as an even bigger thing that the skorne mammoth or if this is an evolution of the setting now that they've done more design work on the skorne lands, and the dinosaurs are out, replaced by the titans.

It just seems thematically weak to me.
Trollbloods? They get yet another giant troll!
Circle? They get an even bigger Woldwarden! (To be fair, this one is at least from the Monsternomicon)
Skorne? Even bigger Titan!
(don't know what the Legion one is, but would be utterly unsurprised if it was just a bigger Carnivian.)

To me, this is equivalent if the Stormwall came out and it was just an Ironclad... just bigger.

And while I may not always agree with the directions that PP has gone with some of their designs, I do have to say they usually keep it fresh. Mulg isn't just a bigger, badder Dire, he's got the troll runes carved into his flesh. The battle engines aren't just upsized creatures/jacks, but are actually different constructs. The Colossals are quite good. Which makes the Gargantua seem even more disappointing.

I mean, they already have facings, have the Skorne War Beast from WF have a enhanced trample of some sort, and can fire batteries of guns (similar to the Galleon) to the left, right, and back. Simple, different, interesting, useable. Instead, they went with a bitter Titan with machine-gun... chest... and a battleship turret on it's back.

[Rapier]

It just seems thematically weak to me.

I mean, they already have facings, have the Skorne War Beast from WF have a enhanced trample of some sort, and can fire batteries of guns (similar to the Galleon) to the left, right, and back. Simple, different, interesting, useable. Instead, they went with a bitter Titan with machine-gun... chest... and a battleship turret on it's back.

It what? Machine-gun chest? That doesn't sound like Skorne to me at all. You clearly know more about the creature than I do, and I can see why you're worried about it.

Fluff-wise I think the battle engines were much more interesting than all the colossals. 5 giant warjacks and 4 upscaled faction beasts - the name of the Everblight one suggests a bigger Angelus rather than Caraveen though.

In the case of the warmachine factions and circle upscaled versions of their constructs seems to be thematically accurate though, so I have no objections to them (Except I don't think mercs should have one - I was kind of hoping when I heard the name their Colossal would be a ship on wheels :P).

The Skorne Mammoth is okay - clearly that sort of species is well adapted to the area they come from (hence the titan design) - that it's a different species that looks similar seems a bit odd. However I think they could have gone wild with the skorne design, there's plenty of things closer to the skorne they could have gone with - how about a subjugated giant (I forget his name, but he's in Monsternomicon2) - any sort of wild desert beast, or stormlands creature - we could even have had a Character Colossal, and had the Chiamera (The Dragon that's maimed and can't heal properly from Monsternomicon 2). I feel like the slavery aspects of the Skorne aren't represented at all in the current Skorne army, it's only possible to show it at all with minions.

All I remember about the Everblight design is that it's called Archangel - to be honest that seems like the sort of thing Everblight would be trying to do - he clearly wants to get his own body back and working out bigger and bigger creatures that can compare to a dragon body seems to be the way to go about it. (Alternatively I wouldn't mind a Typhon character colossal - since Typhon is made with the last remnants of Pyromalfic I'm hoping he eventually grows up to be a remebodied and bitter Pyromalfic).

The trollblood design is the worst - I don't understand the appeal of the trollbloods. Every thing they have is just another troll. There's no variance at all, it's a troll that eats lava, a troll that eats mountains, Mulg looks cool, the elemental trolls are a cool idea - an army of them is a bit tiresome. And upscaling trolls somewhat diminishes Mulg's coolness imo - he's not the biggest and badest any more.


Still, I get the impression from PPS_Simon's response that the colossals aren't meant to be the biggest badest creatures in the setting - clearly there are yet bigger things (such as the Dragons, that Dinosaur). I'm hoping to see a giant in Warmachine someday so I can see if they get Large or huge bases.

I'm still waiting for the Idrian Warlock that has a mouse elephant (I forget the name of them from MN1), when I first heard about the Skorne Mammoth - I was expecting it to be a captured one of those. (A Khareem or something?).

[StJason]

It what? Machine-gun chest? That doesn't sound like Skorne to me at all. You clearly know more about the creature than I do, and I can see why you're worried about it.

Look at the picture. It's got a four-barrel cannon on the back, and what looks like two gatling guns on ball mounts on front.

In the case of the warmachine factions and circle upscaled versions of their constructs seems to be thematically accurate though, so I have no objections to them (Except I don't think mercs should have one - I was kind of hoping when I heard the name their Colossal would be a ship on wheels :P).

The Skorne Mammoth is okay - clearly that sort of species is well adapted to the area they come from (hence the titan design) - that it's a different species that looks similar seems a bit odd. However I think they could have gone wild with the skorne design, there's plenty of things closer to the skorne they could have gone with - how about a subjugated giant (I forget his name, but he's in Monsternomicon2) - any sort of wild desert beast, or stormlands creature - we could even have had a Character Colossal, and had the Chiamera (The Dragon that's maimed and can't heal properly from Monsternomicon 2). I feel like the slavery aspects of the Skorne aren't represented at all in the current Skorne army, it's only possible to show it at all with minions.

Problem is the Chimera is a bit big for a Gargantua. It's about the size of your couch.

All I remember about the Everblight design is that it's called Archangel - to be honest that seems like the sort of thing Everblight would be trying to do - he clearly wants to get his own body back and working out bigger and bigger creatures that can compare to a dragon body seems to be the way to go about it. (Alternatively I wouldn't mind a Typhon character colossal - since Typhon is made with the last remnants of Pyromalfic I'm hoping he eventually grows up to be a remebodied and bitter Pyromalfic).

...actually, he found out long ago that having a physical body leads to his eventual destruction. But keeping split between dozens of servitors improves his chances immensely.

I'm still waiting for the Idrian Warlock that has a mouse elephant (I forget the name of them from MN1), when I first heard about the Skorne Mammoth - I was expecting it to be a captured one of those. (A Khareem or something?).

Kaelram. The trunkless elephants before Titans were trunkless elephants.
I think a lot more minor warlocks (as well as perhaps warcaster versions of them. Specialists with one customized warjack would be *great*. Especially if they are willing to work for Hordes...)

[leo_neil316]

I think a lot more minor warlocks (as well as perhaps warcaster versions of them. Specialists with one customized warjack would be *great*. Especially if they are willing to work for Hordes...)

Minor warcaster doesn't really work as well as a concept, they're just too powerful individually.

I mean, look at j.r, the trainee warcaster. He costs 3 points. He's got a handcannon, a good upkeep, an offensive spell he can't really use unless he puts all his focus in it. Terrible RAT, low MAT, but good DEF ARM at 14/14.

But even with no warjacks he's still well worth his three points. Sure everyone knows he can upkeep arcane shield and double boost that handcannon shot. Which is good enough to hurt heavy jacks and warcasters by itself.

But that arcane bolt? If he boosts to hit he can still hit most incorporeal stuff, and it'll kill them. He can give any jack you name two focus every turn while arcane shielding it. Stick him in the middle of some stormblades for bodyguards and give him a stormclad and you've got a fully loaded ARM 22 heavy warjack without anyone involving your caster.

But he's squishy you say? Well not really. Arcane shield on himself puts him up to ARM 17, he can then camp for ARM 19. 14/19 is pretty damn hardcore. In the right list that can be even better (say with deceleration or defelction) until he gets stuck in.

And get him into any non melee unit (and even some melee) and he'll just start slowing carving through them unless they get very lucky.

Compare to the lesser warlocks when they have no beast.

And remember, any 'lesser' warcaster would have to be better than the journeyman.

[StJason]

Minor warcaster doesn't really work as well as a concept, they're just too powerful individually.

I mean, look at j.r, the trainee warcaster. He costs 3 points. He's got a handcannon, a good upkeep, an offensive spell he can't really use unless he puts all his focus in it. Terrible RAT, low MAT, but good DEF ARM at 14/14.
<snip good analysis for brevity>

All true, but there are specific ways around this.

Give the warcaster a specialized warjack and make them 9-11 points. Junior is a steal at 3 points, but Junior, saddled with an Ironclad (and no other choices?) at 9 points is a much harder sell. This is pretty much how the minor warlocks work. People would be over the moon about them if you could take Cragback and a Harrier or something similar.

Comparing to a minor warlock doesn't quite work, as a warlock with no beasts is helpless. A better comparison is Junior with a Heavy.

[Rapier]

Fluffwise I don't think that lesser warcasters have the same sense to them. Essentially it makes sense to me that some people can become warlocks only in very limited circumstances (Cragback and Lug) or can only control one type of creature (Tatzelworms - although I hope if other Tatzelworm models get made they do let Dailiarh take them the same way that Wrongeye and Rorsch can now take faction warbeasts). It clearly is the case that some warlocks have types of beasts they're better able to control - since trollbloods only get trolls.

In contrast all warcasters are presented as being able to control any warjack (Helljacks and Bonejacks excepted) - the thing which makes it so that you can't control enemy warjacks is cortex locks and specific arcane enchantments that make it harder not anything inherent about the skill of the individual warcaster.

That isn't to say I don't want lesser warcasters as a possible inclusion, especially in the hordes factions (I love the fact eMagnus can work with Skorne); I just think that the logic behind them will make it hard to make many different ones - on the other hand they could make them have focus 3 or 4- come with a unique jack and all have the ability to control over faction jacks (or merc jacks), in the way wrongeye and rorsch can. They'd probably cost more points than the minion warlocks because of this.

Of course the other reason they might not get made is that jackmarshall fulfills a similar role (letting you take jacks on a non-caster) so maybe what we'll get is a jackmarshall with a decent drive and a custom jack instead. (Which would be cheaper points wise) - we already have some, all we need is one that can be a minion too.