Surviving the perfect storm......

[Gamingdevil]

How did you move that far around the Lightning Pod with Perdition on Deathjack? You have to move towards the nearest model and the Pod is a model as far as I know. As soon as you start going further away, you must stop. So if the pod was B2B, you shouldn't be moving at all.

Also, why didn't the Stormwall just shoot, the turn it broke the lock?

EDIT: never mind the last point, see here

[Bjinks91]

Granted i've never played against the stormwall...... yet, so this is all just theorymachining at the moment, but wouldnt 3Asphyxious be quite a decent choice in this case?
I mean cankerworm and a couple of ripjaws with him under mobility would be pretty funny especially against colosals and he can always cycle scything touch on them too especially with a scarlock for that bit more punch. Only issue is somehow managing to get the jacks into the stormwalls without being disrupted.
On a side note though, i do think that the Kraken may just come into some use here, it is still quite a nasty piece of kit and one that the opponent quite simply cannot ignore, even if its main use is to have the bullseye on it and get shot at, at least then our other more vulnerable targets arent being hit and lets face it Cryx has pleanty of cheap infantry and other tricks up its sleeve's, theres just got to be something that will work against this combo.....

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

After playing it a couple times, the stormwall no longer scares me as much as I thought it would. Those stormsmiths, though, they have to go. And N3mo is a jerk.

Using Raiders is a bit of a con. Its obvious to everyone what the strategy is there, and your opponent wil most likely do everything he can to first kill your seawitch and then the rest of the crew.

The bottom line is, the Stormwall does not have to be dealt with. You can still assassinate and the odds are your opponent will have less in his army to get in your way. Pop the pods and stormsmiths, and proceed normally.

[Palmer_v1]

How did you move that far around the Lightning Pod with Perdition on Deathjack? You have to move towards the nearest model and the Pod is a model as far as I know. As soon as you start going further away, you must stop. So if the pod was B2B, you shouldn't be moving at all.

Also, why didn't the Stormwall just shoot, the turn it broke the lock?

EDIT: never mind the last point, see here

I don't have my cards on me, but I'm pretty sure it's nearest LIVING enemy model.

[The Horror]

It's nearest enemy model, but what's stopping you from just killing the pod with something else, or moving Deathjack closer to the Stormwall and then using Perdition.

[Sheer_Falacy]

It's nearest enemy model, but what's stopping you from just killing the pod with something else, or moving Deathjack closer to the Stormwall and then using Perdition.

Or just kill the pod with perdition, it's one of the best possible targets for it (in range, trivial to hit, not too hard to damage, and you get something useful out of killing it). The movement from perdition is after the attack is resolved, so the pod'll be gone if you damaged it.

[Palmer_v1]

Nothing in particular, that turn. I just didn't realize I had played it wrong. I hate getting the rules wrong, but it's only the 5th game or so with her.

[Almightyfoon]

So I have a suggestion: We're Cryxy folks after all, why bother killing it? Why not take it for ourselves? And by that I mean the machine wraith. The collossals are non character being FA:2, and if my remembering of the rules is correct they are technically warjacks making them a valid target for Machine Meld. The only difficulty would be protecting the machine wraith long enough for it to get into meld range, and if that happens... well free Collossal ;p. It might be slightly more effective against Khador with its dearth of magical weapons, but with proper planning I think a machine wraith could be delivered quite effectively. And at a point a piece, theres no stopping you from taking multiples and it being a distraction.

[TravR]

So I have a suggestion: We're Cryxy folks after all, why bother killing it? Why not take it for ourselves? And by that I mean the machine wraith. The collossals are non character being FA:2, and if my remembering of the rules is correct they are technically warjacks making them a valid target for Machine Meld. The only difficulty would be protecting the machine wraith long enough for it to get into meld range, and if that happens... well free Collossal ;p. It might be slightly more effective against Khador with its dearth of magical weapons, but with proper planning I think a machine wraith could be delivered quite effectively. And at a point a piece, theres no stopping you from taking multiples and it being a distraction.

Colossals can not be taken control of, it is part of their base rules.

[GreenJello]

Colossals can not be taken control of, it is part of their base rules.

IIRC, there was a quote from one of the PP staff saying that anybody who attempted this should be flogged. Taking out a 19 pt model with 1 pt one points to some serious issues in the rules. Luckily it doesn't work. (OTOH, 2-3 pt models seem to be okay)

My experience playing against one stormwall with Trolls is that it does seem to struggle to make it's points up.

[Gamingdevil]

My experience playing against one stormwall with Trolls is that it does seem to struggle to make it's points up.

This is true, hardly anyone is concerned about 1 Stormwall. I know some play testers and they had been lobbying for making them FA:1 rather than 2. The reason for this is that, especially with the Stormwall, their potential increases exponentially rather than linear by taking 2. You get 4 Covering Fires, being able to screen about your entire force, and the biggest is that you get 2! Lightning Pods in a turn, that means all those Storm Smiths are triangulating all over the table, without you even getting a chance to limit the use by killing the Pods. You kill them? No problem, I get 2 new ones next turn and zap your *** again.

The other Colossals aren't like this because they don't really interact with other models.

And as a side note, FA:1 would make more sense from a fluff stand point as well. They struggled to make Behemoth and the Avatar, they spent years on developing and constructing the Colossals and now everyone's got 2 (per caster)

Also, they lose some of their usefulness against Hordes since they can't disrupt your beasts. A disrupted jack can't really scratch it, especially with Arcane Shield and infantry has trouble getting to it through the Covering Fire. Beasts shrug and smash their face in

[lichkitten]

well my friend is thinking up a list with two stormwalls and two cyclones, so thats eight, power 12 covering fire templates walking across the table.

[Morganstern]

I did a little maths today. If you run Asphyxious the hellbringer, Deathjack and Cankerworm together then you can potentially take out a storm wall in one turn. Deathjack charging with full (5) focus on him and scything touch will do on average 56 dam to an unbuffed Stormwall, 42 if it has Arcane shield on it. cankerworm charging will do 11 dam to an unbuffed Stormwall, 8 if it has Arcane shield on it, 10 if you can cycle scything touch.

[West996]

I did a little maths today. If you run Asphyxious the hellbringer, Deathjack and Cankerworm together then you can potentially take out a storm wall in one turn. Deathjack charging with full (5) focus on him and scything touch will do on average 56 dam to an unbuffed Stormwall, 42 if it has Arcane shield on it. cankerworm charging will do 11 dam to an unbuffed Stormwall, 8 if it has Arcane shield on it, 10 if you can cycle scything touch.

What if Temporal Barrier is up?


---

I do think that they should be FA:1 as well. And it could make sense from a fluff perspective as well. The only problem I have with that is it is the Storm Wall alone that really warrants this. I'm not sure all Colossals need to be limited in this way.

I think this may just call for a targeted errata.

The other frustrating component is a double Storm Wall list doesn't give every faction a problem. But it does create bad match ups for entire factions like Cryx which is still a problem.

[Baenre]

What if Temporal Barrier is up?


---

I do think that they should be FA:1 as well. And it could make sense from a fluff perspective as well. The only problem I have with that is it is the Storm Wall alone that really warrants this. I'm not sure all Colossals need to be limited in this way.

I think this may just call for a targeted errata.

The other frustrating component is a double Storm Wall list doesn't give every faction a problem. But it does create bad match ups for entire factions like Cryx which is still a problem.

It's really funny reading about this thing because my biggest gripe with it is actually the auto hitting ability. Nothing should be auto hit in a game where you are rolling dice IMO.

[Sheer_Falacy]

What if Temporal Barrier is up?


---

I do think that they should be FA:1 as well. And it could make sense from a fluff perspective as well. The only problem I have with that is it is the Storm Wall alone that really warrants this. I'm not sure all Colossals need to be limited in this way.

I think this may just call for a targeted errata.

The other frustrating component is a double Storm Wall list doesn't give every faction a problem. But it does create bad match ups for entire factions like Cryx which is still a problem.

Whatever errata they may release, they won't reduce the FA of anything. That's ruining it for everyone who bought 2 stormwalls... and the people who bought 2 are, presumably, the biggest buyers.

That said, we'll see if pHaley + 2x Stormwall is over the top. There are other things they could errata, though it'd have to be pretty extreme for them to do so.

[Kommissar Golovko]

If it is proven to be that overpowering, they will do tweaks similar to what they did to Gaspy2 and I agree it will not be to reduce it to FA:1.

[SpiderBite]

Nothing should be auto hit in a game where you are rolling dice IMO.

This.
I'll still deal with Cygnar's silly amount of CoveringFire available, (Stormwall, Cyclone, etc)
and not being able to charge the Stormwalls
and not being able to land spells on the Stormwalls
but the insta-gib of all the zapping. . . I'll be content if they actually had to roll for it


*-Could be I'm just a bitter bitter pessimist who feels we (Cryx) have been getting boned everytime they do anything notable in MKII.

[various]

Put simply it cannot be everywhere at once and it is fairly slow. i think that part of the problem is the fact that it's new and there just isn't enough of an xp base to draw on. It's also one of the first Colossals available which compounds the problem. Give it six months and the fear/hype will die down. Having played against it a few times it is fairly easy to outmaneuver, especially with our fast stuff, and suffers from restricted fire arcs. If you do end up having to tackle it try to concentrate damage on one side first rather than spreading it out: better to cripple one side than moderately damage both. Concentrate on isolating it and kill of it's support, this makes it even easier to outmanner. Most of all: don't panic.

[Sanctjud]

Pay to Win?!?!? Say it ain't so...

[West996]

Put simply it cannot be everywhere at once and it is fairly slow. i think that part of the problem is the fact that it's new and there just isn't enough of an xp base to draw on. It's also one of the first Colossals available which compounds the problem. Give it six months and the fear/hype will die down. Having played against it a few times it is fairly easy to outmaneuver, especially with our fast stuff, and suffers from restricted fire arcs. If you do end up having to tackle it try to concentrate damage on one side first rather than spreading it out: better to cripple one side than moderately damage both. Concentrate on isolating it and kill of it's support, this makes it even easier to outmanner. Most of all: don't panic.

As has been repeated through out this thread. No one here is really afraid of one Storm Wall. It is the double storm wall that seems to be a problem. Couple that with Temporal Barrier and I think you have something that is not just going to go away in six months.

[Island]

Reserving judgement until I play against it. Maybe I can get the local guy who bought one to proxy two against me

[West996]

Reserving judgement until I play against it. Maybe I can get the local guy who bought one to proxy two against me

Cool cool, I'd like to see a battle report if you can.

[ShepMachine]

Cygnar player, spying on you guys....

Kudos on this thread, it does not contain the ideas that just won't work, it paints a realistic portrayal of how difficult the matchup is (but not unwinnable), and even gives a few fledgeling ideas on how to take the cygnar matchup back up to 50/50.

I've been playing weeks of games with phaley and stormwall, and my most frequent opponent and good friend is a cryx player, we've really been trying to figure out this matchup for him.

unavoidable disruption, black oil and 2" reach headlocks on non-reach heavies make the deathjack answer pretty unreasonable to expect.

ATGM exist, so pistol wraiths are a "once, if you are lucky" kind of thing.

and we've all gone over what 9 triangulation rolls for three points, no charges, and two covering fires do to infantry of any defensive value, stealthed or no.

I'll reiterate the stuff that was mentioned in here that is good.

If the withering catches haley, then she won't have enough focus on the next turn to stop any offensive spells if she casts TB, and stormwall might not be able to back away from a parasite powered mechanithrall walk with -2 speed. (pDenny + 20 mechanithralls)

Two shadomancered harrowers have killed phaley before, and it was difficult enough to stop them that I think it will happen again. (pGoreshade + 2 harrowers)

One focus loaded phantom huntered leviathan can kill phaley pretty easily. (eGoreshade + leviathan)

One fully loaded p+s 18 helldiver can kill haley better than 50% of the time, you can have two. On a ritual sacrifice turn, you can allocate two to each, catch them in a dark guidance, feat, and then swing twice with 4 dice to hit and three dice damage p+s 18s. (pSkarre + 2 helldivers)

11" walking threat + dark shroud on a MAT 8 undisruptable kraken is a pretty big problem, especially when nothing is going to be shooting it for a turn. (witch coven + kraken + ragman)

I hope some of these tricks take some of the scare out of the matchup. I've heard some pretty hyperbolic comments at tournaments from cryx players about phaley and stormwall, and I want to make sure that those 'glass half empty' guys have a place to discover that they can win it.

[Cambrian]

I have no experience fighting pHaley but does she have to cast her spell every round or does it remain in play?

It is a non upkeep 4 focus spell. For this reason pHailey is seen as a 3 focus caster since other than a high DEF she has little to keep her safe. She'll likely bring a Squire which will knock her up to 4 focus.

If they didn't bring a Junior she'll have to upkeep the +3 ARM buff as well which drops her back to 3 Focus but now her offensive potential is lowered since she's spent points on a stormwall and 2 support solo's (not yet factoring mechanics as additional support).

You're absolutely right, they are new and will take some time to get used to and I'm sure we will find new and exciting ways to kill our opponent anyway. But assassinating the opposing caster isn't as easy as you make it sound. If they're hiding behind 1 Colossal, it's not that difficult to get a good angle on them, since they can never hide completely. But they're quite well hidden when there's two of the buggers, you also can't move them, slam them, place them or knock them down. So either you're going through them or around them, both options don't seem ideal at this time.

I'd much rather face 2 stormwalls than a single one with other more offensive models. The issue is that Hailey will likely have a 16" control area that once inside prevents you from charging her.

With a large obstacle like the stormwall that can't be moved off an objective it won't exactly be easy to contest the objective without a reasonable force. Even machine wraiths or other hard to deal with incorp models can be shot by the magic pistols that the gunmages and B13 bring.

I personally like the idea of running Satyixis Raiders back by pSkarre.
If you can get the feedback to stick the raiders, on feat turn with the seawitch feat, can kill haley (even if they just severely wound her a sac strike next turn will finish her off). I would worry about rolling too good and scraping the colossal before maximum pain was inflicted, though this means you likely score and put pressure on Hailey to contest with her mechanics and gunmages/B13. Even if not they have pathfinder and will likely have cover due to the wreck- This means DEF 20 ARM 17 satyxis that can cross unimpeded on the next turn.

If you can't get feedback to stick it is still a good amount of damage to the caster and a stormwall stuck in combat against DEF 14 infantry. I could easily see a boosted sac strike being enough to kill her on the next turn (especially with ARM 16 Baneknights or ARM 15 trolls).

Came up against the dreaded pHaley Stormwall combo in the 35 pt tournament I played in today and it was no where near as scary as people are making out. Rather than obsessing about it i wrecked everything else in my opponents army and then went for the scenario win. The Stormwall just couldn't do enough to get its pts back, nor could it contest the objectives spread out. By the end there was only pHaley, a Squire, and a Stormwall. Sure I lost models but won the game which is what the aim is. So I guess that's another way of coping with Colossals: go for the scenario win rather than trying to destroy it.

I don't think a 35 point list would be as threatening. It's all about the colossal then and as you said it does too little on it's own. At 50 points you're facing 15 points more of Cygnar offense which hits us sooner than we hit them (thinking mostly about gunmages).

Nothing in particular, that turn. I just didn't realize I had played it wrong. I hate getting the rules wrong, but it's only the 5th game or so with her.

If it was in B2B then yes you would have to perdition the pod. If it is even just slightly out you can get around it by moving ever so slightly closer to it at every point. It really eats up the advance so you don't get much further up the field but you just have to get far enough around it to have it not block your lane.

[SpiderBite]

I'd much rather face 2 stormwalls than a single one with other more offensive models. The issue is that Hailey will likely have a 16" control area that once inside prevents you from charging her.
.

Fought this at WargamesCon Master's. Terminus tore the Stormwall apart, even without being able to charge, netting me the win. Two Stormwalls would've ended him quickly though.

*edit: I had your standard Termy list with both flavors of Banes and full McThrall package. He had pHaley, Stormwall, B13, gunmages, and an insane ATGM marshalled Grenadier/Master Gunner/Chaingun combo. Really fun fight.

[sious_69]

I personally like the idea of running Satyixis Raiders back by pSkarre.
If you can get the feedback to stick the raiders, on feat turn with the seawitch feat, can kill haley (even if they just severely wound her a sac strike next turn will finish her off). I would worry about rolling too good and scraping the colossal before maximum pain was inflicted, though this means you likely score and put pressure on Hailey to contest with her mechanics and gunmages/B13. Even if not they have pathfinder and will likely have cover due to the wreck- This means DEF 20 ARM 17 satyxis that can cross unimpeded on the next turn.

But how do you actually get the Raiders into range of the Stormwall without them all dying to Lightning and Covering Fire?

[Lambstar]

Don't have an answer for the lightning question, but Raiders have an 11" walking threat range and cover fire templates are only 3". Walk around them. Also remember that it's 1 template for each field of fire. If you're stacked on 1 side of the thing, you don't have to deal with it quite so much.

[Rumor]

Except when they also deploy a pod and shoot it with Ryans AOE attack making a 3rd (4 inch this time) template of covering fire/cloudy death.

[Gamingdevil]

Don't have an answer for the lightning question, but Raiders have an 11" walking threat range and cover fire templates are only 3". Walk around them. Also remember that it's 1 template for each field of fire. If you're stacked on 1 side of the thing, you don't have to deal with it quite so much.

Has there been a ruling on that? Covering Fire only mentions LoS and is not an attack, so from the wording I don't see why it would be restricted by Field of Fire.

Also, walking Raiders don't have much chance of damaging ARM 22, they average at 19.5 damage each on their lacerators, even with 2 combining you won't damage on average. A charge (from outside the control area) would help, but then you will have to deal with the Covering Fire usually. Our only non-pSkarre buff is Scything Touch, which still isn't enough to let them damage on average. Debuffs are hard to apply because of the Void Spear.

[Temujin Khan]

Debuffs are hard to apply because of the Void Spear.

You could always run a bane thrall in (13.5" run with help from Madelyn). There's also Gorman's Rust bomb.

If you can somehow hide it on it's way in (Breath of Corruption with some bloodwitchs or maybe just accepting that your feat is going to be very hard to use and go with egaspy and his clouds), Deathjack with both the above debuffs + Scything Touch will be damaging at dice +2. Dice +5 if Admonia can work her way up.

[sious_69]

Don't have an answer for the lightning question, but Raiders have an 11" walking threat range and cover fire templates are only 3". Walk around them. Also remember that it's 1 template for each field of fire. If you're stacked on 1 side of the thing, you don't have to deal with it quite so much.

If you are within 11" to walk, then you are within range to get shot, have a pod dropped on your head and have multiple lightnings arced onto the Raiders.


Infantry is simply not the answer to the Stormwall...

I played eHaley plus Stormwall plus two Storm Striders and some Stormcallers, I lost the entirety of my Satyxis unit in one turn, then the entirety of my Bane Thrall unit two turns later. I had a turn's respite thanks to pSkarre's feat.



In saying that, I did win the game on scenario, but if it was a different scenario where the Stormwall was able to stay in position, I would have simply had no answers.

[Cambrian]

Has there been a ruling on that? Covering Fire only mentions LoS and is not an attack, so from the wording I don't see why it would be restricted by Field of Fire.

Also, walking Raiders don't have much chance of damaging ARM 22, they average at 19.5 damage each on their lacerators, even with 2 combining you won't damage on average. A charge (from outside the control area) would help, but then you will have to deal with the Covering Fire usually. Our only non-pSkarre buff is Scything Touch, which still isn't enough to let them damage on average. Debuffs are hard to apply because of the Void Spear.

They average 21 (9+5+7(2d6)) with pSkarre's feat, 24.5 (9+5+10.5(3d6)) with the UA mini feat, and they kill the caster at the same time as they damage the Stormwall. That not even factoring in other debuffs that can't be countered (darkshroud, WSC dispell, etc...).

It's not foolproof but it has potential.

[AshenFang]

It's really funny reading about this thing because my biggest gripe with it is actually the auto hitting ability. Nothing should be auto hit in a game where you are rolling dice IMO.

Well, luckily PP does not agree with this, for Cryx as a faction from Day One would not be the same as it is to this day. Sacrificial Strike anyone?