Colossal weapon lock - can they use their ranged weapons when locked?

[PG_dungeongod]

This thread: http://privateerpressforums.com/show...light=colossal

asked too many questions :P But the basic question is: I have a model that weapon-locks a colossal (say, right arm). Can it choose to do it's ranged attacks as it's initials rather than it's melee attacks? Or does it have to forfeit it's initial attacks and purchase the ranged attacks?

[paspinall]

This thread: http://privateerpressforums.com/show...light=colossal

asked too many questions :P But the basic question is: I have a model that weapon-locks a colossal (say, right arm). Can it choose to do it's ranged attacks as it's initials rather than it's melee attacks? Or does it have to forfeit it's initial attacks and purchase the ranged attacks?

Well the rules for weaponlocking dont specify melee or ranged do they so they would forfit initial attacks, as in any initial attacks ?

[PG_dungeongod]

If you read the errata, it says "melee attacks as normal" - which makes me ask which is more important - the "as normal" or the "melee attacks"? If the former, then you can do the ranged attacks. If the latter, then you would have to forfeit your initial attacks and purchase (assuming you can do that at all, and it doesn't just force you into melee engagement only)

[usbprime]

Logically, if some dude is holding your arm, but you have a gun sticking out of your chest into his face.......you'll just shoot the gun.....

I have the colassals book at home and can check to see the wording on colassals in melee. I think you have to choose if you will take your melee action or your ranged action at the start of your turn if you're engaged.

[PG_dungeongod]

I have the colassals book at home and can check to see the wording on colassals in melee. I think you have to choose if you will take your melee action or your ranged action at the start of your turn if you're engaged.

Yes, you do. But the question still stands on the "melee" wording in the errata'ed weapon lock rules - and that is what I am interested in. It has come up twice at my shop already (with Colossals received from Lock & Load), so I think this is going to be pretty important to answer.

[usbprime]

After reading the colassals book, I can't find anywhere that it says you must choose between melee and ranged attacks.

When breaking a lock, you should be able to make all your melee attacks that weren't locked, and any ranged attacks that weren't on the same block as your locked weapon. (for instance stormwall's guns are all attached to either the left or right side, so if the left arm was locked all weapons on the left arm would be incapable of using their melee attacks.)

When locking an opponent, because you use all you initials to perform a power attack, you would not be able to attack, unless you use focus/fury to purchase extra attacks.

Looking this up, I've learned a few new things.....as a locked model can only choose his combat action, and the stormwall's pods are deployed and activated after it's movement, it won't be able to activate them as the weapon/head lock doesn't allow it to have a movement.

Also in the colassals book, "A colossal can make ranged attacks while in melee. A colossal never suffers the firing into melee penalty when targeting a model it is in melee with. A colossal cannot gain the aiming bonus while engaged." The way this is worded leads me to believe that colassals have a type of virtuoso ability built in......


That's my interpretation.

[SageofLodoss]

After reading the colassals book, I can't find anywhere that it says you must choose between melee and ranged attacks.

When breaking a lock, you should be able to make all your melee attacks that weren't locked, and any ranged attacks that weren't on the same block as your locked weapon. (for instance stormwall's guns are all attached to either the left or right side, so if the left arm was locked all weapons on the left arm would be incapable of using their melee attacks.)

When locking an opponent, because you use all you initials to perform a power attack, you would not be able to attack, unless you use focus/fury to purchase extra attacks.

Looking this up, I've learned a few new things.....as a locked model can only choose his combat action, and the stormwall's pods are deployed and activated after it's movement, it won't be able to activate them as the weapon/head lock doesn't allow it to have a movement.

Also in the colassals book, "A colossal can make ranged attacks while in melee. A colossal never suffers the firing into melee penalty when targeting a model it is in melee with. A colossal cannot gain the aiming bonus while engaged." The way this is worded leads me to believe that colassals have a type of virtuoso ability built in......


That's my interpretation.

Colossals do *NOT* have a type of virtuoso built in. They can choose to make ranged attacks while they are in melee, but this forfeits their melee attacks. What they have is a type of built in Gunfighter with the enhancement of being able to shoot out of melee while engaged, as well as into those that they are in melee with.

[Crate123]

After reading the colassals book, I can't find anywhere that it says you must choose between melee and ranged attacks.

When breaking a lock, you should be able to make all your melee attacks that weren't locked, and any ranged attacks that weren't on the same block as your locked weapon. (for instance stormwall's guns are all attached to either the left or right side, so if the left arm was locked all weapons on the left arm would be incapable of using their melee attacks.)

When locking an opponent, because you use all you initials to perform a power attack, you would not be able to attack, unless you use focus/fury to purchase extra attacks.

Looking this up, I've learned a few new things.....as a locked model can only choose his combat action, and the stormwall's pods are deployed and activated after it's movement, it won't be able to activate them as the weapon/head lock doesn't allow it to have a movement.

Also in the colassals book, "A colossal can make ranged attacks while in melee. A colossal never suffers the firing into melee penalty when targeting a model it is in melee with. A colossal cannot gain the aiming bonus while engaged." The way this is worded leads me to believe that colassals have a type of virtuoso ability built in......


That's my interpretation.

The reason it doesnt say you have to pick between ranged and melee is because that is one of the most basic rules in the game.
If you can do both, you either have a rule like virtuoso or another special ability that lets you do both.
I see nowhere that colossals have such an ability, all they have is an ability to fire their ranged weapons even though they are in melee.

[Crate123]

At this moment my interpretation is that a lock forces you into melee mode.

[vintersbastard]

A model affected by a weapon lock only gets its initial melee attacks with weapons that were not locked. No other kind of initial attack, though they can buy additional attacks (even ranged ones).

[solkan]

After reading the colassals book, I can't find anywhere that it says you must choose between melee and ranged attacks.

Why would it be in the Colossal's book? It's in Prime Mk II and Primal Mk II, it's the part in combat actions with the bullet pointed list for what a model must choose between for its action.

When breaking a lock, you should be able to make all your melee attacks that weren't locked, and any ranged attacks that weren't on the same block as your locked weapon. (for instance stormwall's guns are all attached to either the left or right side, so if the left arm was locked all weapons on the left arm would be incapable of using their melee attacks.)

You have to do the opposite of what you're trying do: Find the rule which gives the colossals an exception to the rules for being locked, which states:

A locked model can choose only to make a combat action as its
action and cannot make a special attack. At the beginning of its
combat action, a model suffering a headlock/weapon lock must
attempt to break the lock. When a break attempt is made, both
models involved in the lock roll a d6 and add their STR. If the
locked model’s total exceeds that of the model holding the lock, the
lock is broken. The locked model can make its initial melee attacks
with any melee weapon not located in a locked system as normal.
After resolving these attacks and attempts to break free, a warjack
can spend focus points to make more attempts to break a lock or
to make additional attacks with usable weapons, at 1 focus point
per break attempt or additional attack. Once a lock is broken,
the model can use the weapon that was locked to make additional
attacks during its activation. At any time during its activation,
a model can voluntarily release a lock it is maintaining.

It must attempt to break the lock, and has had its choice for its combat action decided for it: It does what it says in the section for breaking the lock.

[Crate123]

A model affected by a weapon lock only gets its initial melee attacks with weapons that were not locked. No other kind of initial attack, though they can buy additional attacks (even ranged ones).

But why can it buy additional ranged attacks ?
It chose initial melee attack because it was locked, wouldnt that mean that its locked into a melee action from now on ?

[paspinall]

At this moment my interpretation is that a lock forces you into melee mode.

except colossals can shoot out of melee anyway

A model affected by a weapon lock only gets its initial melee attacks with weapons that were not locked. No other kind of initial attack, though they can buy additional attacks (even ranged ones).

But why can it buy additional ranged attacks ?
It chose initial melee attack because it was locked, wouldnt that mean that its locked into a melee action from now on ?

only if you take the initial melee attacks.

[JosephKerr]

As per this thread:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...ock+gunfighter

A model that is weapon locked can still make ranged attacks if it has some rule to allow this, such as Gunfigher or, in this case, the Colossal rules themselves. They simply lose their initial attacks, which can be purchased due to ROF. Being Locked doesn't force the model to use melee attacks and instead makes them simply lose all their initials in the weapons in question and prevents them from making special attacks. As I interpret the rules, being locked would make you lose your initials, allow you to fire ranged attacks in the non locked side, and if you break your lock, be able to fire your remaining guns on the previously locked side at a cost of one focus/fury per attack up to ROF.

[Crate123]

except colossals can shoot out of melee anyway


only if you take the initial melee attacks.

Which they do when they try to break the lock, right ?

[Crate123]

As per this thread:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...ock+gunfighter

A model that is weapon locked can still make ranged attacks if it has some rule to allow this, such as Gunfigher or, in this case, the Colossal rules themselves. They simply lose their initial attacks, which can be purchased due to ROF. Being Locked doesn't force the model to use melee attacks and instead makes them simply lose all their initials in the weapons in question and prevents them from making special attacks. As I interpret the rules, being locked would make you lose your initials, allow you to fire ranged attacks in the non locked side, and if you break your lock, be able to fire your remaining guns on the previously locked side at a cost of one focus/fury per attack up to ROF.

Well typhon is allowed to mix melee and ranged attacks, which a colossal is not. So if trying to break free counts as making a melee attack (for lack of a better word), then the rest of your attacks have to be melee as well unless you have an ability such as typhon or virtuoso.
At least thats how I understand it.

[JosephKerr]

Weapon Lock doesn't say that breaking the lock is a melee attack. I would say that breaking a lock isn't, since it takes place before initial attacks.

Hordes Primal Pg. 52: At the beginning of it's combat action, a model suffering a headlock/weaponlock must attempt to break the lock.

[Hug a Gorax]

A locked model can choose only to make a combat action...[] The locked model can make its initial melee attacks...[]

It must attempt to break the lock, and has had its choice for its combat action decided for it: It does what it says in the section for breaking the lock.

It's action must be a combat action, but why must the combat action be a mêlée attack type? It says you can make initial mêlée attacks with non-locked weapons, not that you must. What barrier is there to choosing ranged attacks, attempting lock break, then taking ranged initial attacks? Which line specifies that when locked you automatically make* mêlée initial attacks?

* not that you can make

[paspinall]

Which they do when they try to break the lock, right ?

does it not say they break out of the lock then they *may* make initial melee attacks with other weapons, it doesnt say the break out itself is a melee attack, especially as it isnt an attack anyway.

[Crate123]

does it not say they break out of the lock then they *may* make initial melee attacks with other weapons, it doesnt say the break out itself is a melee attack, especially as it isnt an attack anyway.

Well thats the bit that leads me to think you are forced into a melee action since it says you may make initial melee​ attacks, it doesnt say you may make initial attacks. It specifies melee.

[JosephKerr]

MACALLAN:
Typhon has 3 heads.
A lock will prevent attacks with 1 head.
A crippled aspect will prevent attacks with 1 head.
Each head gets 1 initial attack (melee or ranged).
You can buy additional attacks with any head (that isn't crippled or locked).

I would interpret this ruling from the previously posted link to mean that the initial melee part does not limit you if you have a rule that circumvents it, ala Gunfighter which is NOT Point Blank and still lets you make ranged attacks in melee. Since breaking the lock is not a melee attack itself, I would interpret Macallan's ruling to mean that if you could make ranged attacks in melee you are still allowed to, even with a weapons lock.

[paspinall]

Well thats the bit that leads me to think you are forced into a melee action since it says you may make initial melee​ attacks, it doesnt say you may make initial attacks. It specifies melee.

all that means is that initial attacks must be melee it does not say you may make initial melee attacks an can buy further melee attacks just further attacks. no where there does it state you are locked in to performing only melee attacks for the them other than by the usual rule of one or the other attack type.

[Crate123]

all that means is that initial attacks must be melee it does not say you may make initial melee attacks an can buy further melee attacks just further attacks. no where there does it state you are locked in to performing only melee attacks for the them other than by the usual rule of one or the other attack type.

Exactly.
If you make melee initial attacks, you can not make ranged additional attacks. I dont think that being locked suddenly lets you change those rules.
Or are you saying "I choose not to do the melee initial attacks so therefore I can buy additional ranged attacks" ?
Im not reading that option into it at all.

[paspinall]

Exactly.
If you make melee initial attacks, you can not make ranged additional attacks. I dont think that being locked suddenly lets you change those rules.
Or are you saying "I choose not to do the melee initial attacks so therefore I can buy additional ranged attacks" ?
Im not reading that option into it at all.

Why isnt it an option ? Nothing there forbids it and its a perfectly legal option.

[Crate123]

I thought I had answer but my answer meant that colossals getting locked were in big trouble as opposed to just greatly annoyed so I scrapped that thought.
I dont know. I settle for waiting this out.

[PG_dungeongod]

And... this whole thread hashes through every argument we had at my FLGS - which is why I asked it here. :P I have not seen anything that is conclusive, and the infernal rulings being referenced are for a specific model with specific rules, which is why I didn't think it would apply here.

[Crate123]

Well lets hope someone with either more insight and/or great skills of persuasion will help us out

[@ndreas]

from the errata regarding weapon-locks:

The locked model can make its initial melee attacks
with any melee weapon not located in a locked system as normal.

I think it is only "poor" or better ill-conceived wording. The term "melee" refers IMHO to the fact that a model which is weapon-locked is also engaged.
And being engaged means, no ranged attacks, unless a special rule on your model allows that.
I first thought, while writing up that part of the rules, they didn't take that special rules into account.

But then this is maybe not necessary, as a special rule on a card overwrites the general rules, so I'd say: if your model is allowed to make ranged attacks while being engaged, do so, may there be a weapon-lock or if you broke the lock.

Prime II, pg. 29 - Rule Priority:
Additional special rules apply to specific models and modify the standard rules in certain circumstances. When they apply, special rules take precedence.

(On a side note: the whole paragraph about weapon-locks in the errata is a little confusing, as the order of breaking attempt and making attacks with non-locked weapons is worded in two different ways: first you have to make a break-attempt, then maybe attacking with non locked weapons... some sentences later they refer to attacks and THEN write about break-attempts.)
If someone locks my arm, I first would try to beat him with the other arm, because defeated enemies cannot maintain any locks. So this rule-set lacks a little in clarity in that parts IMHO.

[PG_dbsmash]

Throwing a comment in here to bump this; I would really like to get a more concrete consensus on this as we have quite a few Colossals in our shop already.

Thanks

[Valander]

Throwing a comment in here to bump this; I would really like to get a more concrete consensus on this as we have quite a few Colossals in our shop already.

Thanks

Please do not bump threads in the rules forum. Most of the time, that will get a "locked without reading."

In this case, it gets a locked while checking.

[Valander]

Answer is:

Per the January 2012 errata:

The locked model can make its initial melee attacks with any melee weapon not located in a locked system as normal.

This means that you must make initial melee attacks during your combat action. If you are eligible to make both initial ranged and initial melee attacks (e.g., Virtuoso), then you can, otherwise you can only make melee attacks. You cannot "skip" your initial attacks and go directly to making additional attacks--no skipping initial melee and making additional ranged, for example.