Tell me about Deliverers and Sunburst crews.

[Matthaeus]

Hello there !

I was considering the Protectorate's options for long-ranged shooty goodness, and it came to me that I seldom see mention of the Deliverers, except for their obvious use in a pop 'n' drop list. I can't even recall seeing a Sunburst crew in a list. And they have no entry in the Canon ! Which prompted me to write this.

So, from what I can see, what do they have going for them ?
First, I see range. Looking at the alternatives, a Vanquisher with a Vassal ducktaped to it is a premier choice for hurling fireballs at unbelievers, but it's more medium range. Deliverers offer a better threat range by 7", making them more threatening across the board.
Our rocketeers also look self-sufficient and versatile enough on their own with multiple firing options, from happy-go-lucky carpet-bombing to actually decent CRAs. The Redeemer fires the same Skyhammer rockets with a high rate of fire and benefits from the fantastic Choir support, but it is notoriously focus hungry, which limits its applications.
Sunburst bolts seem to be the most reliable of the lot ; they do not suffer from Inaccurate and more often than not fire high-powered AoE shots at effective RAT 7, nothing to scoff at.

On the other hand, I can see how they might be found lacking in overall power. Either they're spraying low POW blasts or they're foregoing the majority of their attacks. Even then, the fixed POW of their CRAs prevents them from presenting a serious threat to hard targets. This is especially noticeable when looking at the Redeemer, which combines power and high RoF, before even considering the possibility of boosting.
Not that it would be a problem... if only they were not Inaccurate or if they were less expensive. If I had to guess why they're not more popular, I'd bet they are held back by a combination of those three factors ; remove one, and they'd be much more serious contenders.
As for Sunburst crews, I'd hazard that even though they bring solid power for their points, their lack of mobility hurts their effective threat range, making them definitely less attractive.

(As an aside, I've read here and there that deviations were time-consuming and thus made bombing units a liability in timed play. Am I the only one to think there's something wrong when logistics interfere so much with the actual game ?)

But enough of my theorymachine ! Again, that was just me trying to rationalise what I observed.
What about you, experienced Menite leaders ? Does that sound about right ? Whaddya think 'bout dem rockets ?

[computertrucker]

At 50 pts sometimes I will run twin sunbursts with psevy.. Screen them with TFG and watch heavies cringe at their hitting power. Usually run them turn 1 if I go first. Great for putting early hurt on heavies or clearing infantry.
As for our rocket boys I haven't ever played them. So will leave others to comment on them.

[Spyde]

I'm very curious about Deliveres as well.

The only thing is, Vanqisher + Vassal is 2x AOE 4's that auto cause Cont Fire without Inaccurate.

Deliveres are most likely best with pkeross ?

[Alzer]

Granted I generally use them in my pKreoss list, I love Deliverers (aka derp-rockets). I've been trying to find a way to shove them into my other lists. My Reznik list would really like to have them I think.

Been considering the Sunburster (or two) in my Vindictus army to put on the flanks and start blasting things (10" run first turn to find a good spot)

Generally my opponents just stop caring about their units. The mass of AoEs from that range from even a min unit of deliverers annihilates warriors. I also use them to peg a few damage on heavies with the CRA if those are in front.

I find freeing my jacks up from dealing with infantry (since I usually run a Vanquisher) allows me much more flexibility. The CRA is brutal (two Pow 14 aoe 4s is great).

For on-the-clock competitive play the massed Aoes could be a bit of a pain, but I don't play in tournies.

I've been looking at pSeverius's tier list and running TFG + UA with deliverers behind them. That 16" range will hit roughly 1/4 of the board, and hiding it behind a DWed shieldwall looks pretty hilarious.

Really I think their range is my favorite thing. Being an attrition faction, the earlier we can start putting damage on, the better our day is going to be. As mentioned it's a huge threat to infantry so opponents will position their units away from you Deliverers to keep them alive, which lets you dictate part of the board.

[Bishop84]

(As an aside, I've read here and there that deviations were time-consuming and thus made bombing units a liability in timed play. Am I the only one to think there's something wrong when logistics interfere so much with the actual game ?)

No, you're not the only one. And this is one of the primary reasons I don't play in tournaments. The fact that one rule makes entire units that are generally good and fun to play into a liability is not for me. I also prefer both me and my opponent to make good, informed, tactically sound decisions and not lose the game because one of us was running out of time and made a rushed decision.

[jandrese]

If time is such a concern, you're basically out Deliverers and maybe Redeemers. Deliverers aren't exactly popular anyway, and the Redeemer can usually be replaced by a Vanquisher if you want to keep some templates but don't want to waste your time measuring deviations and eyeballing templates. The Sunburst is plenty quick to use in a tournament settings as well. I agree that it is unfortunate that one of the core mechanics of our faction is not time friendly, but there's not much you can do about it now except avoid those options. I should note that since the original Prime, the only model we have received that has this template scattering problem is the Judicator. Even then, you might be able to burn a little extra time for an 18 point model, although double scatters are still fairly slow.

[IRSMARTLIKEROCK]

For the past year I've been playing Retribution and double Stormfall Archers which produce 8 AoE's a turn were fine for me. Even at L&L they weren't a problem and I've never clocked out. Ways to speed it up are rolling distance and deviation at the same time with different colored dice. Also memorizing the directions for AoE's helps a lot as well.

[jandrese]

If your AoEs are reasonably accurate it usually isn't a problem. Knowing the directions allows you to discard deviations that are clearly not near anything, the problem is when something deviates into a mass of troopers and you have to figure out who exactly is under the template. That measuring and eyeballing is what eats up the clock real bad.

[Hashmal]

I dunno. Just takes practice. My 35 point Feora2 list has Zealots and a Redeemer and I've never run into a time issue. My problems with Deliverers have nothing to do with that. The Sunburst is great, but with boostable aoes in-faction, it falls by the wayside for me.

[repentia]

i just posted a topic over on the list discussion asking pretty much the same question, im running quoireless light on jacks too an had gaps in the lists functionality. so i saw a place for the sunburst crew an reached out to the community for advice, for the reason you stated you dont see many of them but they dont look bad on paper. so what the prob. i think u have gone into the heart of the matter, an that is with x in the mix y isnt as good as z but without x y is a perfectly valid option

[jandrese]

I've had pretty reasonable success with the Sunburst. That said, I don't pull it out too often. The Vanquisher with a Vassal costs 10 points and puts out the same number of AoE 4s as two Sunbursts (6 points), but still I tend to lean on the heavy jack because it gives me options beyond just tossing AoEs. Also, auto-fire is a pretty big deal.

I can't think of any time I've been disappointed in the Sunburst however. It always does its job and almost always kills or damages more than 3 points worth of the enemy list. Also, it's not fire damage or inaccurate, which is somewhat novel in the Protectorate.

[IRSMARTLIKEROCK]

If your AoEs are reasonably accurate it usually isn't a problem. Knowing the directions allows you to discard deviations that are clearly not near anything, the problem is when something deviates into a mass of troopers and you have to figure out who exactly is under the template. That measuring and eyeballing is what eats up the clock real bad.

Eh I just underestimate when seeing who's in unless it's some super important solo.

Also my problem with the sunburst is the same problem I have with most artillery in that it can't move and shoot. In a game where the field is constantly shifting sometimes I need it to be places it can't be. This is where the Vanquisher / Redeemer win out; being able to boost blast damage is a nice feature as well.

[Matthaeus]

Thanks for the replies gentlemenites !

So I wasn't completely off on my assessment then. Yep, that's something I thought while writing : a Vanquisher has about the same threat range as a Sunburst and packs much more versatility. Ballistae do perform well enough for their points is what I'll remember !

I feel ya Bishop Well, I think there's something to be said about time management as a skill, but that's another debate.

[ZealousJohnny]

I'm very fond of deliverers and I like the idea of the sunburst crew. Every game Ive had with them they've performed well. I think the main problem with them is that, as has been suggested above, the vanquisher + vassal combo is just so good for it's points that often it takes the AOE role in most lists. Not only that but it can function as a secondary beat stick and is much more difficult to kill off.

Still, the range on the deliverers as well as their autonomous nature (no need for any focus or buffs really) are what make them worth taking. In most games with them they first act as anti stealth, then as anti-infantry, and then if theyre still around and there's a target they CRA into big targets. They're also quite good in shooty lists as a lot of our shooting (Vanquisher, Reckoner, a lot of ranged magic) is fire based, and when you actually do come up against a unit or two with fire immunity they can be a god(Menoth)send.

I've used them to effect with:

Kreoss1: fairly obvious uses
Vindictus: extra move helps them get in range early and means a good aiming position by turn two is pretty easy
High Reclaimer: easy souls, good way for his brick to deal with stealth and I find it's always good to have a ranged element with him
Severius1: eye of Menoth does what it does for everyone. There's quite a big difference between POW6 and POW 7 blasts. Death sentence is great if you have the focus.

And that's the end of my experience

I will say I was considering trying putting a couple of Sunbursts in a Sevi1 list with two redeemers for two extra RAT8 POW17 AOE4 attacks on top of up to 6 RAT6 POW15 boostable AOE3 attacks from the redeemers when aimed and choired. With the right support that's the start of a pretty nasty ranged list.

Hope that helps

[Matthaeus]

I will say I was considering trying putting a couple of Sunbursts in a Sevi1 list with two redeemers for two extra RAT8 POW17 AOE4 attacks on top of up to 6 RAT6 POW15 boostable AOE3 attacks from the redeemers when aimed and choired. With the right support that's the start of a pretty nasty ranged list.

I like what I hear ! That sounds like a most pleasing start.
Would it be too greedy to suggest, say, a Judicator ? That list needs moar rocke... er, a heavy hitter, right ?

Your input is welcome, thanks !