Please show me the bad match ups

[Tirrith]

Hi Guys,
I have been having great success with Ravyn lately. Below is my list. Feel it is a great all comer list. Can you point out possible bad match ups for me. The first thought, when considering Ravyn, is stealth. I have Discordia (spray) and Phoenix (AOE and Combustion) to deal with infantry. Assassins, Skerryth, Destor Thane and punch in face Myrmidons to deal with Shadow pack. I should be fine with high arm with Aiyana/arcanist boost on Myrmidons.

Anyway here is my list, please show the weaknesses so I can design a second list to compliment this.

Ravyn

Phoenix
Discordia
Sylys

2 Arcanists
2Assasins
Skerryth
Destor Thane
eEyriss
Magister
10 MHSF and UA

Cheers.

[joelker41]

eLylyth, eKaya, eFeora, pDenny, are the traditional worrisome matchups for me.

Ravyn is a very quick long distance assassin based caster, in tournaments I usually compliment her with Kaelyssa and Rahn, our king and queen of attrition games IMO.

I would bring whatever caster you feel comfortable playing vs beast heavy hordes or infantry spam lists.

[Tirrith]

Thanks Joelker for the quick reply.
I am comfortable with both Kaelyssa and Rahn. I thought that this Ravyn list could handle infantry spam through feat turn, with MHSF, Spray and Destor Thane. Do you think it still lacks enough punch versus beast heavy? Most beast heavy would have fury management (shepherds, beast handlers, whelps). They would be priority one with sniped MHSF.

Maybe I've tried to cover all bases and not really mastering any?

[joelker41]

Thanks Joelker for the quick reply.
I am comfortable with both Kaelyssa and Rahn. I thought that this Ravyn list could handle infantry spam through feat turn, with MHSF, Spray and Destor Thane. Do you think it still lacks enough punch versus beast heavy? Most beast heavy would have fury management (shepherds, beast handlers, whelps). They would be priority one with sniped MHSF.

Maybe I've tried to cover all bases and not really mastering any?

You probably will hear it a lot but the list is rather solo heavy. Traditional Ravyn lists have stormfalls to provide the punch. Relying on solos for that.much heavy lifting may be bad. I like everything in the list except the Magister and Thane. I would try dropping them and maybe the MHAs for a full Halbs Unit with UA and a Soulless. Most of your models can be 1-shotted and with each solo you lose a lot of flexibility. I would make the suggestion to trim your solo budget down to 10-12 points. You really do need another unit or two in there whether it is stormfalls or a melee interference unit like Halbs.

[Rogue Sun]

I see Skorne giving you fits. Well, beast heavy Skorne anyway. If someone puts a Bronzeback on the table (or God forbid two...) they can pretty much just march that thing straight at you with little worry. And if there are multiple heavy beasts marching at you, your army HAS to rely on assassination because you just don't have that much hitting power in this list otherwise.

[Tirrith]

Thanks guys, this is the type of feedback I needed.
I will think on it a bit more. My other list will be either Rahn or Kaelyssa with Sentinels so the beast heavy Skorne list would have something to worry about.

[Baptism By Ice]

Other (commonly considered competitive) casters to add to the list: Terminus, pButcher, pBalder, Bethayne/Belphagor, and... more that escape me right now. Simple answer is any caster that either has ARM16+ or any caster that has (or can gain) stealth. Also any army that can handle stealth/low-ARM infantry (any aoe-spam list), as once those MHSF die the force loses a significant amount of punch.

[Tirrith]

Just to clarify. I rarely go for the snipe/feat assassination. I use the sniped/feat to wipe out the guts of the opponents army, (choir, annoying solos etc...). I find Ravyn gives other benefit like locomotion, veil of mysts etc... which come in very handy during the course of the battle. Putting too much focus on the assassination can come undone against a good opponent and high arm caster. For example against a Butcher list I would be happy to feat and wipe out the Winterguard unit and the dog that accompanies him etc... More like an alpha strike then revert to attrition with superior numbers on the board.

[NEoJoe]

Just to clarify. I rarely go for the snipe/feat assassination. I use the sniped/feat to wipe out the guts of the opponents army, (choir, annoying solos etc...). I find Ravyn gives other benefit like locomotion, veil of mysts etc... which come in very handy during the course of the battle. Putting too much focus on the assassination can come undone against a good opponent and high arm caster. For example against a Butcher list I would be happy to feat and wipe out the Winterguard unit and the dog that accompanies him etc... More like an alpha strike then revert to attrition with superior numbers on the board.

Sounds like you're at that step of playing Ravyn correctly. It's easier to see why you have success with her.

[Baptism By Ice]

Just to clarify. I rarely go for the snipe/feat assassination. I use the sniped/feat to wipe out the guts of the opponents army, (choir, annoying solos etc...). I find Ravyn gives other benefit like locomotion, veil of mysts etc... which come in very handy during the course of the battle. Putting too much focus on the assassination can come undone against a good opponent and high arm caster. For example against a Butcher list I would be happy to feat and wipe out the Winterguard unit and the dog that accompanies him etc... More like an alpha strike then revert to attrition with superior numbers on the board.

That is good to hear. Way to not crutch on the feat. However, I do still have a concern of lack of ways to crack high ARM outside of the phoenix/arcanist tag-team. If they focus on either the support or put an effort into shutting down the phoenix, I'm not sure how you would take out any of the more 'elite'-level ARM casters. Skeryth hurts, true, and the MHA's will put some boxes on them, but I don't see either of them killing a caster with base ARM 18+ played by a player who knows to camp a little when you are able to get a charge lane.

My biggest concern here would be pButcher or Terminus, honestly. I honestly don't see much beyond the phoenix that could have a shot at killing him, and after he feats (probably turn two to get the 10-ish souls from the MHSF), I don't know how this list would ever come back from that. Same goes for pButcher - sure, you can kill the WGI on feat turn (probably the best choice), but he should probably have kayazy and IFP waiting as well, and they are more than enough to get the job done on his feat turn.

So long as your alt list can handle obscene amounts of infantry while also have more than one heavy hitter, you should be fine. This is true against things like eKaya as well, as you will need more heavy hitting to deal with that many beasts. Even things like Invictors could work, so that you can plink off whatever isn't stealthed and then charging them in (with flank, preferably) - they might be stealthed, but charging pow 12 (with weapon master, even) will put a quick end to the beasts.

Also, for the record, pDenny doesn't worry to much with this list. Just be sure to use the feat to wipe the Satyxis off the board, then use Disco to wipe the Banes as well. After that, play conservatively until you can draw pDenny out, and be sure to anticipate the feat. Beyond that, the game should be mostly on your terms, especially considering how easy you can simply destroy their arc nodes, especially if you want to do it on feat turn to ensure that all the MHSF can hit the DEF15 arc nodes, you shouldn't be in too tight of a spot.

Just my $0.02. I will also admit that my experience with Ravyn is minimal at best, so much of this is theorymachine. Which means you should probably ignore most of what I just said.

[Murkhadh]

eLylyth, eKaya, eFeora, pDenny, are the traditional worrisome matchups for me.

Ravyn is a very quick long distance assassin based caster, in tournaments I usually compliment her with Kaelyssa and Rahn, our king and queen of attrition games IMO.

I would bring whatever caster you feel comfortable playing vs beast heavy hordes or infantry spam lists.

elyly and kaya are def brutal, You can win efeora though, its not a great matchup but its not terrible, its one of the more even ones I play a lot.

pdenny is isn't always so bad, if she had a ton of bane thralls its can be rough, but if she has satyxis or bane knights that you can see to shoot, you can win that one.

[Murkhadh]

That is good to hear. Way to not crutch on the feat. However, I do still have a concern of lack of ways to crack high ARM outside of the phoenix/arcanist tag-team. If they focus on either the support or put an effort into shutting down the phoenix, I'm not sure how you would take out any of the more 'elite'-level ARM casters. Skeryth hurts, true, and the MHA's will put some boxes on them, but I don't see either of them killing a caster with base ARM 18+ played by a player who knows to camp a little when you are able to get a charge lane.

My biggest concern here would be pButcher or Terminus, honestly. I honestly don't see much beyond the phoenix that could have a shot at killing him, and after he feats (probably turn two to get the 10-ish souls from the MHSF), I don't know how this list would ever come back from that. Same goes for pButcher - sure, you can kill the WGI on feat turn (probably the best choice), but he should probably have kayazy and IFP waiting as well, and they are more than enough to get the job done on his feat turn.

So long as your alt list can handle obscene amounts of infantry while also have more than one heavy hitter, you should be fine. This is true against things like eKaya as well, as you will need more heavy hitting to deal with that many beasts. Even things like Invictors could work, so that you can plink off whatever isn't stealthed and then charging them in (with flank, preferably) - they might be stealthed, but charging pow 12 (with weapon master, even) will put a quick end to the beasts.

Also, for the record, pDenny doesn't worry to much with this list. Just be sure to use the feat to wipe the Satyxis off the board, then use Disco to wipe the Banes as well. After that, play conservatively until you can draw pDenny out, and be sure to anticipate the feat. Beyond that, the game should be mostly on your terms, especially considering how easy you can simply destroy their arc nodes, especially if you want to do it on feat turn to ensure that all the MHSF can hit the DEF15 arc nodes, you shouldn't be in too tight of a spot.

Just my $0.02. I will also admit that my experience with Ravyn is minimal at best, so much of this is theorymachine. Which means you should probably ignore most of what I just said.

Terminus, wait for him to feat, survive with eEiryss and some mhas until those souls turn into focus, then strip it off with eEiryss or kill him with 2 mha's or strip it off with eiryss and kill him with Ravyn herself. it can be done.

[Baptism By Ice]

Terminus, wait for him to feat, survive with eEiryss and some mhas until those souls turn into focus, then strip it off with eEiryss or kill him with 2 mha's or strip it off with eiryss and kill him with Ravyn herself. it can be done.

So... you shoot Terminus? When he has 20 to 40 sac pawning mcthralls around him who are also tough...? Shooting Terminus is much easier said than done, sadly.

(PS: This post sounds much snarkier than I had intended. My apologies.)

[joelker41]

So... you shoot Terminus? When he has 20 to 40 sac pawning mcthralls around him who are also tough...? Shooting Terminus is much easier said than done, sadly.

(PS: This post sounds much snarkier than I had intended. My apologies.)

eEiryss also strips focus in melee. Don't know if that was his intent though.

[Rogue Sun]

Not really. Remember, he can only sac pawn to a model within 3" of himself so if you clear out that area it shouldn't be too big of a deal, and with the typical amount of firepower someone brings with Ravyn, shooting that much around him isn't too terribly hard. If they're stealthed just shoot Terminus and make him sac pawn to them or take the shots himself. It's a win/win either way.

[Murkhadh]

Joelker and Rogue pretty much nailed how to go about it. Also if you can get a slam or headbutt off on terminus to knock him down makes it even better