Hexeris' Feat + Soulfire

[sterling319]

OK, I wanna run this by the forums and, hopefully, the infernals, to make sure I'm reading it correctly.

Tyrant Hexeris' feat says: "When a living or undead enemy model is boxed by an attack while in Hexeris' control area, take control of it. The model becomes a friendly Undead model. If it is a trooper, it becomes a solo. The model can immediately advance up to 3"and can make one normal melee attack, then remove the model from play. When making this attack, ignore the effects of lost aspects on affected warbeasts. This model cannot be targeted by free strikes during this movement. Dark Dominion lasts for one turn."

His spell Soulfire says: "When a living non-soulless model is boxed by Soulfire, this model gains 1 fury point and the boxed model is removed from play."

They both are triggered by boxing the model. And the both involve removing the model from play. But doesn't the fact that the effect of the feat lets the model attack change that effect to one that involves making an attack? If so, a model boxed by the spell under the effects of the feat is removed from play as per the spell, and cannot be there for the effects of the feat, correct?

[sterling319]

Essentially, my question involves quantifying of effects. The rulebook says that effects involving removing a model from play are resolved first. It also says that effects involving making an attack are resolved last. The spell clearly qualifies as removing a model from play. The feat both removes a model from play and involves making an attack. So which applies first? Is it timed for an effect removing a model from play, or for an effect involving making an attack?

If they are both quantified as effects that remove a model from play, does the player only get one, since he removes the model from play either way? Or does he get both?
And if it qualifies as an effect that involves making an attack, but the model is removed at step A, does he still get to use the effect of the feat?

[sterling319]

I also just found in Primal mk 2, pg. 66, that if an effect triggered on boxed removes a model from play, no other effects triggered on boxed take place. So if they are at the same time in the order, the active player would get to pick one to happen, and the other wouldn't.

[sterling319]

If he gets his choice. If it's quantified as an effect that involves making an attack, he doesn't get to choose, he just gets the spell effect.

[sterling319]

I ask because my Fennblades got raped by this the other day. I had a full unit with attachment, with about eight in the front line. Had eMadrak's spell, Blood Fury on them, preparing to charge next turn. So they were only defense 10. But I figured he couldn't reach me with his slow units. He upkept his channeling spell on a Cyclops and ran him forward. Then stepped his caster up to where my fennblades were completely within his control range and started channeling the spell into them. He needed 3s to hit and 3s to kill. I made a couple of tough rolls, but it went something like this: Spell kills fennblade A, fail tough roll. Fennblade A turns and attacks Fennblade B, only needs a 4 to hit, 3 to damage, kills next fennblade, pHexeris gains a focus as Fennblade A is removed from table. Fennblade B attacks Fennblade C. Hits, kills, no tough. Fennblade B is removed. Fennblade C attacks Fennblade D, hit, damage, makes tough roll. Hexeris casts again, rinse, repeat, kills 11 fennblades with channeled spells. Casts the spell 5 times. Starts the chain again every time he casts it. Seemed ridiculous to me.

[kamilion]

Looks to me that you have answered your own question. Your opponent played it wrong - Soulfire boxes then RFPs; Feat boxes, takes control, makes undead, allows movement, allows attack, then RFPs.

To make it more clear, with reference to steps in Appendix A, Primal MkII:

Soulfire's RFP effect triggers on Boxed.
- Step 11.4 - Model Boxed, trigger Soulfire RFP, Hexeris1 gains Fury. Skip to Step 12.


Hexeris1 Feat RFP effect triggers at the end of the model's attack sequence.
- Step 11.4 - Model boxed, trigger Feat. Hexeris1 controller gains control of model, model becomes undead, model can move. Starts Attack Sequence over again.
- Step 12.d. of 2nd Attack Sequence, model is RFP'd. Skip to Step 12 of 1st Attack Sequence.

Because of pg. 66 ("... if an effect causes a boxed model to be removed from play, no additional effects triggered by the model being boxed take place..."), RFP on boxed takes precedence over any other effect, and Soulfire RFPs on boxed, whereas Hexeris1 Feat actually takes control on boxed, not RFPs (it RFPs much later on in the sequence).

I imagine the initial confusion came from assuming that the Feat's RFP effect also occurrs on boxed, but it really doesn't.

Many of my fellow Skorne players would call this a primo example of Skornergy, though I personally see it more as a "this makes us balanced, not Cryx/Legion."

[sterling319]

So, no, either way, he does not get both, but does he get to choose which happens first, or is the feat bumped to order D?

[kamilion]

So, no, either way, he does not get both, but does he get to choose which happens first, or is the feat bumped to order D?

Soulfire always takes precedence because of the rule that RFP on boxed goes before any other effect on boxed, and the feat falls into the category of "other effect on boxed."

To put both things in the same sequence and break it down more:

Hexeris1 pops feat. Hexeris1 casts Soulfire on Fennblade.
- Step 1 to 5
- Step 6: Hexeris1 hits Fennblade with a 3.
- Step 7 to 9
- Step 10: Hexeris 1 rolls 3, 1 above Fennblade ARM.
- Step 11.1: Fennblade takes 1 damage.
- Step 11.2: N/A
- Step 11.3: Fennblade disabled. Tough triggers, roll failed, still disabled.
- Step 11.4: Fennblade boxed. Soulfire and feat both trigger.
-- Normally, the active player (Hexeris1 controller) could choose which effect (Soulfire or feat) takes place first, but pg 66 mandates that Soulfire's RFP effect goes first because RFP on boxed always goes first.
-- Soulfire RFP effect triggers, Fennblade RFP, Hexeris1 gains 1 Fury.
-- Recheck feat trigger condition, feat can not trigger because model is RFP. Skip to Step 12.
- Step 12

So the feat isn't bumped, it actually never triggers because when its trigger condition is rechecked after Soulfire's RFP effect, the feat can no longer trigger because the model is no longer in play.

It's important to remember that Soulfire has an "RFP on boxed" effect and Hexeris1 feat does not (it seems to on first glance, but the RFP is at the bottom of the 2nd attack sequence, not on boxed in the 1st attack sequence), so Soulfire will always trigger first. That should clear up any confusion with your opponent.

[sterling319]

My friend is gonna pitch a fit about this. He's gonna say that this destroys his caster. That pHexeris is designed to do exactly what he did to my fennblades. And, to be fair, if it was any other faction, any other unit, he probably wouldn't have been nearly as devastating. But fennblades have a low defense for single-wound infantry in the first place, and me debuffing it didn't help. Usually, single-wound infantry don't have the skill on their own to turn and whack the guy next to them. WGI would laugh, MoW or similar 8-health infantry would laugh. It's a very rare situation that allows him to take advantage of an opponents unit like that.

But looking at it, it looks like it's a feat that's designed to work with his army killing things around him, not him spell-slinging through a single beast at a line of infantry for decimation. And he does have a spell that can trigger his feat, Obliteration. He just can't cast it more than once in a turn.

[sterling319]

Ok, there's another thread with this same question that says the active player gets to choose which effect happens first. I need an Infernal ruling.

[Gamingdevil]

Ok, there's another thread with this same question that says the active player gets to choose which effect happens first. I need an Infernal ruling.

No, you don't. The other thread is right, the active player (the one playing Hexeris) does choose what effect triggers first. After the resolution is completed, the model is removed from play. Then the game wants to trigger the other effect (because, you know, it did), but it simply can't, since the model is gone.

Also, don't try to feel sorry for your friend, this is just how the feat works. There's plenty of infantry out there that would decimate themselves:
either form of Banes hit on 6's and destroy
IFP hit and kill on averages
Doomreavers hit on 6's and destroy
etc.

Not all infantry is supposed to be high DEF, low ARM, there's plenty of "medium" infantry out there, with average def and mid-level arm.

[kamilion]

Ok, there's another thread with this same question that says the active player gets to choose which effect happens first. I need an Infernal ruling.

The other thread is right, the active player (the one playing Hexeris) does choose what effect triggers first. After the resolution is completed, the model is removed from play. Then the game wants to trigger the other effect (because, you know, it did), but it simply can't, since the model is gone.

Hmm, I might be mistaken in saying that Soulfire always triggers first, because rereading the text for Soulfire ("When a living non-soulless model is boxed by Soulfire, this model gains 1 fury point and the boxed model is removed from play."), it looks like the "on boxed" effect is gaining 1 Fury, then RFP the model. In that case, neither effect automatically goes first, and the active player (Hexeris1 controller) chooses.

Either way, only one effect goes off, because the model isn't available for the other effect to happen on.

Also, don't try to feel sorry for your friend, this is just how the feat works. There's plenty of infantry out there that would decimate themselves

This.

[sterling319]

Unless the feat is ruled as an effect that involves making an attack. Which it does. In which case, you would have no choice.

[vintersbastard]

Unless the feat is ruled as an effect that involves making an attack. Which it does. In which case, you would have no choice.

Except that that specific rule only applies to the "after the attack is resolved" step. See also the current Errata, to which a link is stickied at the top of the forum.