All in all it was all just bricks in the wall. Stopping Stormwall.

[jandrese]

I've been thinking for a bit about how to take on colossals, especially if you
don't bring your own and thought it would be interesting to work through a
case study. In this case, I'm talking about what will probably be the most
common Colossal you see, the Stormwall. In particular, Stormwall with Arcane
Shield or some other defensive upkeep. Generally you would only see something
else if you have one of those casters with a Jack-only defensive upkeep
(Failsafe for instance) that they want to put on Stormwall so Jr. can put
Arcane Shield somewhere else. Because of this, I'm going to consider
Stormwall to be a PC 22 model.

So lets see what happens if we take two 8 point models, a 4 point model, and a
minimum choir. For the 8 point models, we will assuming a generic
Protectorate heavy, with a P+S 17 main weapon and a secondary weapon that we
will not be concerned about. The 4 point jack will be a Dervish that combo
strikes but buys no more attacks.

Lets see what happens if the Jacks simply charge with a full focus load (9
focus total). The Stormwall is a mighty ARM 22 thanks to Arcane Shield, but
the heavy jacks are P+S 19, and the Dervish is going to Combo Strike for
another P+S 19.

The charge attacks should do 7.5 damage each or so, for a total of 22.5 (of
56), and then two bought attacks each that average 4.03 damage a piece (16.12
total), for total damage of 38.62, more than half the damage grid but not
enough to really destroy it. Maybe we should really consider boosting those
additional attacks, for a total of 5 attacks at 7.5 damage a piece. That's
37.5, better but still not nearly enough to get the job done.

Clearly Arcane Shield has to go if you want anything like a fair trade in
points here. Luckily, the Protectorate has a number of options for dealing
with Arcane Shield, including:

pKress: Spellbreaker (if you're feeling lucky), and Purification
eKreoss: Chasten (but you have to damage an ARM 22 model with a POW 12
magic attack)
pSevvy: His Feat can knock down upkeeps after a turn delay, unless they're
upkept for free by Wishnailer.
eSevvy: Hex Blast should have no trouble directly hitting.
Harbinger: Purification
Reznik: Hex Blast might miss, but still probably not, with Purgation on his
weapon you may not want to remove it right away.
eeKreoss: His feat blows away upkeeps
Gravus: Smashes upkeeps with his flail
Fire of Salvation: Knocks away upkeeps when run by Kreoss
eEiryss: Ranged upkeep hate that she can use from behind smoke or trees out of
LOS.
Scourge of Heresy: Arcane Assassin and Purgation, we'll look more into this
later.

So there are a goodly number of options for dealing with that pesky Arcane
Shield. Lets see how it changes the numbers:

Charge case: 3x10.5 + 4x7 == 59.5 damage, dead Stormwall.
Non-Charge case: 9x7 == 63 damage, dead Stormwall with room for bad rolls, or
letting the Dervish do something else.

So clearly blowing away Arcane Shield is essential unless you want to devote
three heavy jacks or more to killing it.

Now lets look at a special case, the Scourge of Heresy. Long derided for
being too specalized at a task that rarely happens on the table, this jack may
find new life as a Colossal killer. This jack has Imprint: Arcane Assassin
and Purgation on one of its weapons. Lets look at the case of the Scourge of
Heresy with a Vassal against an Arcane Shielded Stormwall:

Case 1: Imprint Activated, charge the Stormwall, buy attacks. 1x15, 1x6,
and 2x11.5 == 44 damage, very respectable.
Case 2: No Imprint, charge the Stormwall, buy attacks: 1x12, 1x3, 3x8.5 ==
40.5, use the imprint!
Case 3: Imprint Activated, advance and buy attacks: 1x6, 5x11.5 == 63.5, dead
Stormwall!

That's a 9 point jack, 2 point Vassal, and 1 choirboy to drop a Colossal that
is roughly double its points. Delivering a SPD 4 non-reach character jack to
the Stormwall without getting it disrupted is an exercise left to the reader.

We should also look at some of our jack hunting units to see how they fare:

Full Bastions on a charge, Blessed ignores Arcane Shield, so each does about
7.02 damage each, or 35.10 total. Not enough, although if you get two units
charging you should be able to finish it off (9 attacks should be enough).

1/2 Knights Exemplar on a charge: They aren't ignoring Arcane Shield, but they
are hitting at P+S 14, for roughly 9 damage each, or 27 damage total. Not
impressive sadly. Blow away Arcane Shield and they jump up to 12 damage each,
for a respectable 36 damage or so, you still need roughtly 2 half dead units
to get the job done however.

Errants on a charge: Assuming they aren't ignoring Arcane Shield it is
barely worth the effort, you would need 30 charge attacks to finish it off.
With Arcane Shield down it isn't quite as hopeless, you only need 14 or so
charge attacks.

Full Vengers on a charge, no damage taken: You need a little over 2 full
units to get the job done. If you have lost 1 horse you need a little less
than those 2 units (each at 4 riders). Blessed is a big help.

Overall, if you were equipped to deal with a Darius list running two
Centurions (one Arcane Shilded, the other Fortified), you're more than
equipped to deal with the Stormclad, assuming you manage to avoid getting
disrupted too much. For once, the Scourge of Heresy isn't overpriced
overkill! Some sort of upkeep hate is essential however, because Arcane
Shield is just too obvious to avoid putting on a Colossal.

Final Bonus round:

Reznik vs. Stormwall with Arcane Shield.

Option 1: Reznik charges, 1x6.04, 6x2.82 damage swings, 22.96 damage, and
Reznik dies to a very angry Colossal next turn.
Option 2: Engine of Destruction, Reznik Charges, 1x10, 4x6.5, 36 damage, much
better, but still a dead Reznik.
Option 3: Upkeep Ignite, Engine of Destruction, Reznik Charges: 1x12, 3x8.5
37.5 damage, even better.

However, lets take a look at what happens if you get some focus efficiency
(Hierophant, Wracks):
Option 1: 1 extra: 25.78, 2 extra: 28.6, still not worth it.
Option 2: 1 extra: 42.5, 2 extra: 49. Not dead, but feeling it
Option 3: 1 extra: 46, 2 extra: 54.5. Very close to death, and maybe not a
threat anymore.

Impressive damage, but really only possible because we were abusing Purgation
to negate Arcane Shield and only with full focus support for Reznik. The good
news is that he can blow his feat to deny focus allocation to Stormwall,
greatly improving his chances of survival. The bad news is that he's still
right up front and with no focus.

[StefDa]

If you're playing Reznik against a Cygnar player who is likely to bring a Stormwall you'll simply make sure to bring Scourge of Heresy if you own it. Amirite?

[Matthaeus]

Nice job jandrese ! An assessment by the numbers is always a good idea.

It's good to see Scourge has found a worthy opponent !
The numbers are rather impressive. And as you said, there's still the matter of delivering slow 'jacks or infantry that'll have to walk through covering fire. Looks like it'll offer a good challenge.

I like what you did with the title as well Yay for alliterative appeal !

[Zakion]

I personally think if you want to see the worst set up with the stormwall think Jr and P Haley. Now work out potentials with that keeping in mind you cant charge it. If you can crack that then any other combo is a walk in the park.

[Rinion]

Nice write up!

I think probably an eFeora 'jackwall with Scourge added in along with the templars and whatever else. Making it Speed 6 is almost as good as charging every turn, and is as fast as you'll get agasint pHaley.

An upside to this is, with eFeora you'll probably have a bonded Judicator, which will also be Speed 6. You can sing No Shooting from Choir and risk leaving some focus on Scourge for Arcane Vortex (against pHaley you can look on the bright side that you gain 2 focus from not making SoH+Heavy run so you have 2 "spare" focus that you would have spent anyway =P), which should be in range to protect at least Feora, Choir, Vassal(s), itself, Judicator, and probably another heavy 'jack if playing at 50.

Trick then is avoiding Disruption! Man i hate Cygnar.

[Zakion]

The good thing is if its distrupting its not punching face so not all bad I suppose and our big guy cant be dusrupted. Might want to run E eyriss the turn before our jack goes for it to make theres unable to recieve focus.

[maddermax]

The good thing is if its distrupting its not punching face so not all bad I suppose and our big guy cant be dusrupted. Might want to run E eyriss the turn before our jack goes for it to make theres unable to recieve focus.

The lightning pods it shoots out are a free action after their movement - they can be beating face in melee or shooting, doesn't matter, as long as the S system is working, they're being deployed.

[Charming]

Well in order to disrupt with the pods they need to damage with that pow10. The problem is the stormcallers using the pods to triangulate and those suckers only need to hit

[jandrese]

Yeah, if the Stormwall places a pod behind your jack, it is going to be disrupted. If the POW 10 doesn't work, then the stormsmiths will all try until they make their check. You really need to have at least 2 or probably 3 heavy warjacks spread out when approaching the stormwall under the assumption that at least one will be disrupted every turn. Also, some good old fashioned AoE spam is always nice for blowing away Stormcallers, and if you're running the High Reclaimer you can hide your jacks behind smoke (Remember that Stormcallers need LOS!). The downside is that they can be almost 20" away and still disrupting you, so that may be easier said than done.

[Gaston]

HR versus any of the colossals is a hilarious game of 'I can see you, but you can't see me'. For some reason it irks people...

[Del Fuego]

HR versus any of the colossals is a hilarious game of 'I can see you, but you can't see me'. For some reason it irks people...

Is LoS involved in pod deployment? I thought it was just 10" out.

[Demeritus]

Is LoS involved in pod deployment? I thought it was just 10" out.

Not with the pod deployment but in terms of using them to make the Stormcalls and triangulations, then yes LoS is involved.

[stupidmonkey]

What about the Avatar +what ever? He should add a couple of points per hit... and reduce focus load on the caster. And is not going to get disrupted.

[Spyde]

No avatar ?

Avatar + Ignite = Choir = PS 23

Also dont forget using Gorman to shut down the Coloss for a turn if you can get him there.

Another thing is, Bonded Jacks getting 4 focus with esevvy and eFeora

Im to the point i want every list i take to have the ability to Dispel at least once. That means mixing in Gravus and eEiryiss to me.

Im also going to say..
eFeora - escort
harbinger - Crusaders call
Thyra - Feat 2"
Vindictus - True Path
Reznik if you can get Perdition off
Amon - Mobility
eeKeross Warpath.. if your desperate Book + ForceHammer jack from behind Reckoner would get 5"Move 3"Charge 3"Warpath 1d6" Force Hammer. 2"Reach 14-19" Charge ?

With Ignite+Choir Reckoner is PS 21
Charge 1 Focus Gun shot Assuming we all hit. 22dmg 3 to stormwall
1st melee hit PS 21 +3d6 (average of 10.5) 31.5dmg 12.5 to stormwall
2nd Melee Hit 21+2d6 (Average 7) 28dmg 18 from Final 2 = 33damage on average
3rd Melee hit 21+2d6 (Average 7) 28dmg

Not great, but its a good streatch of distance that we can do to a caster in the future ?

Fire of Salvation ? Enemy kills a infantry, free advance then the above ? it also strips upkeep with Keross's

Movement is key imo against Stormwall and other colossies.

Ive been thinking of my Tier 4 Harby to go against Stormwall

Harbinger of Menoth
Crusader
Crusader
Crusader
Reckoner
Avatar of Menoth
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Temple Flameguard (Leader and 9 Grunts)
Temple Flameguard Officer & Standard
High Paladin Dartan Vilmon
Paladin of the Order of the Wall
Paladin of the Order of the Wall
Paladin of the Order of the Wall
Paladin of the Order of the Wall

Paladins hit for 28 on average on charge 4x of them = 36 dmg I dont remember the PS on Vilmon but tossing it as the same 45 dmg total.
Get a jack in there with them, and your golden. (Assuming i rememberd how her tier list works and the list is valid)


Then again.. We have esevvy +Hierophant +Wracks + Choir + 3x Reckoners and just kill their caster setting behind stormwall ? nemo isnt hard to hit.

Just a few extra thoughts i had.

[jandrese]

The Avatar is great, but you'll need to blow away Arcane Shield first and not roll poorly for focus.

First, lets look at the ideal focus case where you don't have any upkeep hate:

4 focus, Arcane Shield, advance and attack with Hymn of Battle: 6x5 or 30 damage. Enough that he will know it, but the Avatar is going to get mangled in return.

Now lets see what happens if you roll only average on focus but blow away Arcane Shield:
3 focus, advance and attack with Hymn of Battle: 9x4 + 3, or 39 damage. Still not great, but you're making good progress on the second damage grid this time.

Now lets look at a bad case. You only rolled 2 focus, have to charge, and can't blow away Arcane Shield, but at least the Choir is still helping:
9.5 + 6, or a measly 15.5 damage. You just wasted the Avatar.

Finally, lets look at what happens in the ideal case. No Arcane Shield, Hymn of Battle up, 4 focus, can walk to attack, have Ignite cast on the Avatar:
11x5 + 5 or 60 damage, barely enough to completely destroy the Stormwall in one activation. This drops down to 52-53 damage or so if the Avatar hast to charge to get in range though, and 47-48 if it has to charge and the shield doesn't get in range. The effectiveness quickly drops off as the conditions become less ideal.

The good news is that the Stormwall struggles to kill the Avatar too. Assuming no attack buffs on the Stormwall (Cygnar doesn't have much in the way of melee buffs, although there are some), it is hitting 5x6 damage, or around 30 or so depending on when the shield goes down. There is a reasonable chance for the Avatar to survive! And if all you have left is a R box, well, that's all you need. Put Defenders Ward or Inviolable Resolve on the Avatar and your chances of survival improve dramatically (5x4 or about 20 damage total, you might not even lose systems!).

People think that because the Colossals have such huge melee attacks that they must just be monsters in melee, but really they're only marginally better than a heavy jack at melee. None of the Colossals are terribly good at trashing another colossal in one turn for instance. Gargantuans will be a different story thanks to their high FUR stats, but Colossals are really hamstrung in melee by the 3 focus limit.

The Judicator is only slightly better than an Avatar that rolls 4 focus for instance. Without buffs most Colossals will be capable of destroying about 1 unbuffed heavy jack a turn in melee.

[jandrese]

eeKeross Warpath.. if your desperate Book + ForceHammer jack from behind Reckoner would get 5"Move 3"Charge 3"Warpath 1d6" Force Hammer. 2"Reach 14-19" Charge ?

You would have to forfeit your movement or action after you got slammed.

[Spyde]

I completly agree that Arcane shield, pretty much has to be removed to get damage on it.

Colossals can get 4 focus, if you run them with a Caster that can bond.

As for Hordes Gargs being able to wreck better, that very well may be true, but from the one we get to see.. its rather weak to taking damage.

Ill also admit Judicator + Choir buff took me 3 focus to Kill Molik, and i hard more of an issue hitting then i ever did with avatar.

[Spyde]

You would have to forfeit your movement or action after you got slammed.

How so ? Knockdown or another rule that i havent ran into yet. (I think ive only ever been slammed on a heavy once or twice)

[vvp]

the harby tier list can do it fine. avatar + crusader with the buffs purified on a charge. and the choir buff.

avatar charge (3 focus base):
11+8+8+3 = 30

crusader charge (3 focus):
10+7+7+3=27

a paladin will do the trick to finish it if you rolled exactly average or a bit worse.

[Demeritus]

Ill also admit Judicator + Choir buff took me 3 focus to Kill Molik, and i hard more of an issue hitting then i ever did with avatar.

To me it sounds like your dice just weren't up to it. The Avatar needs anything but snake eyes versus the Judicator who needs 5's to hit, both are less than average and should be quite common. Yes the Avatar will likely remain our premier accurate melee decimator but the Judicator and the rest of our non character jacks shouldn't be far behind, not to mention the Judicator is at +1 damage over the Avatar.

[Spyde]

It took 3 focus, 1 to charge, had to buy 2x attacks, 1 missed from making me re reoll...

[Charming]

I'm so very happy that I've started including Gravus and his wicked dispel mace in my lists. He's gonna be a HUGE target in lists containing a stormwall though, so keeping him safe in order for him to deliver that flail to the knee is gonna be hard work but with Vindictus or Harby he can whack that robot from way downtown or 15" away to be precise.

[Del Fuego]

How so ? Knockdown or another rule that i havent ran into yet. (I think ive only ever been slammed on a heavy once or twice)

Knockdown immunity only partially kicks in on your own turn. If you are knocked down on your own turn, and have knockdown immunity, you must still forfeit as if you were getting up normally. If you're knocked down on your own turn and don't have knockdown immunity, you're down until your next turn.

[jandrese]

Note that the forfeit if you were knocked down clause only applies to throws and slams. If you get hit by Earthquake but are under the influence of the book, then nothing happens at all. It's basically there to prevent people from getting a little extra movement by throwing or slamming their own models (which ended up getting abused to silly proportions in Mk I).

[PG_Draxos]

Knockdown immunity only partially kicks in on your own turn. If you are knocked down on your own turn, and have knockdown immunity, you must still forfeit as if you were getting up normally. If you're knocked down on your own turn and don't have knockdown immunity, you're down until your next turn.

Where is this rule?

[Spyde]

Guess i missed the memo on that one :P

Im hoping to get Harby T4 against a stormwall this weekend, sadly i dont own 4 Paladins, so itll be Proxy Time.


Was also thinking, it seems the stormsmiths cause the biggest issue with the pods. esevvy, take control of stormsmiths that you can and run them into a location to kill them, or disrupt their own jacks ?

i dont have his feats ruling on hand to be 100% sure about running and using their actions. This is doubtful, but moving them closer to be able to kill them would be nice.

[jandrese]

Where is this rule?

Prime Mk II, under "being slammed" and "being thrown".

[jandrese]

Was also thinking, it seems the stormsmiths cause the biggest issue with the pods. esevvy, take control of stormsmiths that you can and run them into a location to kill them, or disrupt their own jacks.

Stormsmiths are solos, eSevvy can't affect them with his feat. Unnamed unit grunts only.

[Alzer]

sSevvy can too affect stormsmiths with his feat! It's just in a less direct way and requires more bullets!

I wouldn't mind brain-screwing a stormsmith into disrupting Cygnaran jacks, but unfortunatly that wouldn't happen

[stupidmonkey]

Primal page 53.
"If a slammed model cannot be knocked down, it must still forfeit its action or movement if it activates later in a turn which it was slammed."
same goes for throws I am sad to say.

[Del Fuego]

sSevvy can too affect stormsmiths with his feat! It's just in a less direct way and requires more bullets!

Oh god, 6 Longgunners firing into their solo's backs for +4 RAT and a total of 12 shots... I love it!

[darisus]

Oh god, 6 Longgunners firing into their solo's backs for +4 RAT and a total of 12 shots... I love it!

Sad part is when you take over models with sevy they all become solos, so no CRA or any fun things like that. It would be nice sometimes to take a good cra/cma unit and walk back and tag a caster with a big hit, but most of the time it isn't to great...

I mostly use his feat as a control tool to get models out of zones/command of there leaders or to run into my own lines to kill easier.

[Menite troll]

5 vengers with eeKreoss buffs ignite and battle driven can drop it. Same for eeKreoss but only on feat turn and additional foc from wrack. Mostly because of blessed lances. Divine inspiration effectively adds +2 to their damage rolls so Kreoss with ignite is like P+S 18 blessed and Vengers are even P+S 20 blessed on a charge.

[jandrese]

So 5 Vengers with P+S 18 (one took damage but didn't die) and S&P on every attack... Lets work it out.

Stormwall is ARM 19 (we're ignoring Arcane Shield thanks to Blessed), so that's Dice - 1 on the attack rolls. That makes the average damage around 12 per model, for 60 boxes total. It's just barely enough, but even if you fail (unless one of them absolutely flubs the attack roll), the Stormwall will be hurting.

The hardest part will be keeping all 5 alive and yet triggering Battle Driven and surviving the POW 12 hit from the covering fire template on the damaged guy (Dice-7 though, so not terrible odds).

[Menite troll]

Still the cheapest solution as it seems.

[Venom321]

So i hate to bring it up but Amons dervish or crusader list could devastate colossals. at 35 anyway unsure at higher points. Amon with 2 min choir and your choice of jacks should be able to kill em pretty easily

[Alzer]

I figure just having a couple heavy jacks and Exemplars around will be enough to deal with the thing. I find the most important thing in Warmachine (besides my dice behaving) is having options open to deal with your opponents. I love Vanquishers because there is nothing in the game I can't kill with them in a reasonably efficient manner. (See also-flexibility).

If my opponents really starts giving me headaches, I just picked up Reznik and Scourge (well, the upgrade kit at least, need to buy the heavy kit now). Choir-buffed Ignited SoH into a upkept-anything will bring the pain. Throw in a Crusader and some Bastions and between the lot of them, big things will (maybe) die.

[Menite troll]

I doubt they have only 1 combo strike each and their normal attacks even with choir and synergy are quite weak. Not enough to drop arm 23. To mitigate arcane shield you would need at least +3 synergy bonus.

[jandrese]

Amon with 4 or 5 Crusaders could do it no sweat, assuming that one of them avoids getting disrupted. Arcane Shield won't even be a problem when you're hitting for Dice + 2 through the shield.

It's very difficult to do analysis on a synergy powered deathtrain though, there are just too many variables. If you have synergy built up and a nice heavy jack at the end, you'll have enough killing power, because that's enough killing power for just about anything. The only caveat is: don't try to get tricky and cast Flagellation to cut through Arcane Shield, because that will drop Synergy. Just don't attack it on pStryker's feat turn.

If you have upkeep hate, you won't even need the heavy jack. Assuming you've got 4 other battlegroup models, that Dervish will be up at P+S 19, or even dice against the Colossal. Add in the damage from the P+S 18 light jack that attacked it previously and you have a great big wreck marker. It doesn't take much Synergy to render the combo strike suboptimal. Just be careful because if the Stormwall survives, it will absolutely crush a Dervish in melee.

[Gavriel]

One thing I'd like to bring up at this point is one if the colossals' unique rules: they can be targeted by cra attacks while in melee. This may make idrian skirmishers a much better option as a colossal finisher as a full unit with prey on a colossal can cra it for pow 25. Assuming you've already stripped arcane shield off, you can do a respectable 13 damage on that cra, enough to finish one that has need charged by ignited bastions.