The 2 player battlebox

[genix]

Recently I bought the Khador portion of the 2 player battle box. I think I even posted on this forum about it.

Anyhow we decided to up to 25pt and just play that. And so we did.

I'm sure you probably know how that went already Looking at what the Covenant does, I was hastily searching the forums thinking surely the suggested starting list for Khador wouldnt be such that the natural additions for each army to make 25 would see one of them with a feat (and spells) which are most likely going to fizzle. Alas it was true. I waited, but Covenant upkept the stationary denial every turn until I tried in vain to at least catch something with my feat. When I did have some space for Sorscha to attempt an assassination run, I was just caught within the edge of spell denial so my hopes for some movement shenanigans with Sorcha were dashed.

Anyhow I managed to still do a bunch of damage to Kreoss thanks to the Destroyer lobbing some ranged shots. One had a direct hit, and good boosted damage roll but was unable to secure another direct hit.

Now I am sure the Battlebox must be a decent start to build on if one were fighting another faction. However with the above in mind, it would seem that the expectation is for me to start replacing models rather than adding models if I am to face Menoth again. But I do not wish to spend lots so ideally I'm looking to run the list I have now but with a different caster and be competitive in games against an army built from the Menoth half of the Battlebox.

I have some ideas for a change of caster, but wondering what people might recomment and why.

[rivenwyrm]

When I saw the contents of the battlebox, I just kinda shook my head. It seems like a good pairing, until the PoM player inevitably reads his faction book and discovers a 2pt, hard to kill model which completely negates his opponent's feat. You have a lot of options. I'll outline two: Buy widowmakers, if you haven't already, and try to plink the book to death. Buy pIrusk or eIrusk. pIrusk's feat grants immunity to knockdown (along with his warjack buff spell), while eIrusk's warjack bond grants immunity to knockdown and his feat allows everyone to stand up. Bonus: They both work with the contents of the battle box better than Sorscha.

[MediumYellow]

As an alternative to counter picking with irusk, I would suggest proxying esorcha. She is just really really good. You may not have winterguard, but her feat makes every enemy in her control area take double damage over armor. So you can assassinate with her, her jacks, or just smash his units or whatever.

[Skarvald]

It's really crazy how they put pKreoss against pSorsha in the battlebox.. Kreoss' feet is just so much better - 2'' inches due to 7 focus and does not require LOS! Allowing Kreoss to get within 14'' of Sorsha is a big deal, since his Lamentation will drop Fog of War and any other upkeeps (basically Boundless charge) and then Purification makes it impossible to even attempt an assassination run next turn, because spells will cost double (and if you are at the edge of the 14'' range of Kreoss, assuming he had to move to clip you with his feet, your threat charge range without Wind Rush is only 6+3+2+=11'', assuming a straight line and no rough terrain). Basically, you will need that Wind Rush, and if you are inside Kreoss' Lamentation that's 4 focus right there.. Using her feat and then 2 focus to buy attacks and rolling average should be able to kill Kreoss, assuming no Defender's Wrath..
It's just tough.
You either need to get the drop on him before he feats from more than 14'' away (basically using Wind Rush to get inside his CTRL area) and then using your movement to charge), need to risk and find an opening after his feat turn by using your own feat, or you wait a turn licking your wounds, hoping that your 'jacks are not dead.

Honestly, the Juggernaut and Destroyer in the battlebox are a distraction - how you win is by using Sorsha as an assassin... Your 'jacks will never get the drop on the enemy's caster.
You have mobility on your side. Dance around terrain with Sorsha, always using Wind Rush to stay away from Kreoss, and also stay away from your 'jacks, making it hard for Kreoss to hit your entire battlebox with his feat. He'll try to knock you down and shoot you, so be prepared by always getting the +2 DEF from Wind Rush and then hiding in some terrain for concealment or cover, so when he does shoot at you, you are not completely defenseless.

[scout's honor]

It's really crazy how they put pKreoss against pSorsha in the battlebox..

I think there is a misconception about the way the contents of the 2-player starter set were decided. I'm fairly sure it was simply "battlebox + unit of plastic medium-based infantry" without too many considerations given to the matchup.

[nerdkingdan]

If I had to guess. I bet the battle box and it's contents were chosen for marketing and nothing else. It's not a conspiracy that it's Khador contents are completely absent from a tournament level army. It was probably decided that Sorcha and kreoss look cool standing next to their army, so new players would buy it. In the end their is nothing wrong with starter sets designed to attract new people!

Look at the kayazy they are great on the field but a starter box with those ugly things would have had me reaching for cygnar.


Though I wish I had skipped it. I plan to not buy any more battle boxes.

[rivenwyrm]

I bet the battle box and it's contents were chosen for marketing and nothing else. It's not a conspiracy that it's Khador contents are completely absent from a tournament level army. It was probably decided that Sorcha and kreoss look cool standing next to their army, so new players would buy it.

Though I wish I had skipped it. I plan to not buy any more battle boxes.

This has been my perspective since it was released. Especially considering their are multi-jack kits with both a juggernaut and a destroyer, it just seems very silly. And of course, almost every single new player runs into exactly this same problem. Which is not a good way to be introduced to your faction.

[genix]

Thanks Rivenwyrm, I had not considered eIrusk. Looking at his spell list, abilities, and feat, I suspect I wouldn't need to change a thing. So my next purchase will likely be either pIrusk or eIrusk.

eIrusk is one I had not considered, and his abilities, spells and feat are looking really good. While he doesn't have a DEF buff, I think Martial Discipline is really the selling point if ones squishies are behind the shield walled Shock Troopers.

Most likely the next thing to be replaced will be the troopers. My regular faction is Skorne. Even the Skorne Cetrati (shieldwall heavies) I don't like playing without access to Press Forward (+2" movement) and their base speed is higher than the shock troopers!

I don't think I'll miss them. Aside from taking too long to get to the objective if they use their selling-point ability, Kreoss' feat allows auto-hits and breaks Shield Wall so they do seem an odd inclusion in a list to go against Kreoss.

Arrgh. Always so much to buy, and my Skorne are wanting for a few pieces too! Oh well.

[Joasht]

The 2 player contents look good at first glance; pSorscha is a decent caster. The Juggernaut is a simple, cheap melee beatstick. The Destroyer is a decent fighting gun platform. MoW STs have good survivability and are alright overall. But then when you put them all together, you realize the almost complete lack of synergy and how mediocre (frankly, sometimes downright bad) when it is all combined, that I sometimes just shake my head in disgust. The problem is, many people start with it ;and when my good friend started Khador with it, he got his face consistently bashed in until he bought different models.

Can it work? Of course it can. I once took the 2 player starter, swapped the caster with pButcher and threw in some solos + Widowmakers to make it up to 35 points, and went against eVlad (with Drakhun, Kayazy and some other stuff) and I won with the list. But I did it only because I had to prove that the list can, in practice, work if played properly....but the problem is, its not very newbie-friendly, at all.

That said, the easiest way to make the starter contents work, IMO, is to get pButcher, then decide to drop one of the jacks (I'd drop the Jugger, its too slow for pButcher) and invest in some solos (e.g. eEiryss, Gorman) and a unit (WG/IFP/Kayazy are safe choices) as well as possible some "support" (e.g. Widowmakers). It should bring you comfortably to 35 points and will perform well with some experience.

[rivenwyrm]

Kreoss' feat allows auto-hits and breaks Shield Wall so they do seem an odd inclusion in a list to go against Kreoss.

It is unfortunate but true that our medium based infantry feel... lacking. However, Kreoss' feat does not break shield wall. Nowhere in the knockdown rules does it state that you lose shieldwall, and nowhere in the shieldwall rules either. So there's that at least. eIrusk can help ameliorate their speed issue (and his jacks') a small amount, plus he's got a badass model and is good with other stuff as well.

After more than 9 months of Khador, I got my hands on Shocktroopers, and didn't assemble them for another 2. I finally started playing them, and I was rather unimpressed, even at 50 pts where you can afford to have slower models who are basically in reserve. Joasht has the right of it, pButcher also runs the box well but is somewhat harder to play due to lack of speed buffs and vulnerability. If you want good solid options for expansion, the sticky at top has some great tips.

[Tyr852]

Also look at pEiryss , doombolt hits the big book for 3 points of damage so 2 rounds of that and it's done or team up with widowmakers to do it in 1 round .

[Rampage_Starfire]

Yep, covenant hates Widowmakers, add in the Widowmaker Marksman, or Kell Bailoch , and it's gone in 1 round.

[genix]

Well the book was hard to reach - my Widowmakers did try I believe it is considered small for LoS and easier to hide.

I didn't know the KD did not break SW. I thought it would, but had it not, it wouldn't really have made a large difference for how the match played out. At any rate it is a rough match up once the lists expand to 25 I think. Whats given in the box would make for much better games. My frustration is that I was hoping to sit at this 25pt for a bit, and do more Skorne purchases first.

However it seems that *almost* right out of the box I'm needing to replace at least the caster which I assume PP suggest I should start with. Either that or find myself mostly without a feat!

But pIrusk is actually fairly cheap, so he could make things work. But Butcher could work as well (in fact he was the caster I was considering before Rivenwyrm suggested looking at Irusk).

[mostholycerebus]

Normally, im an extremely strong advocate for NOT getting the battlebox. I dont like pSorschas play style as i dont feel its representative of Khador, Juggernaught in general sucks for our paradigm (tho does have a place in some lists), Destroyer is over costed, and MoW are just too slow no matter how hard I try to make them good. HOWEVER, since you are already there, lets try to make a purse out of this pigs ear:

eIrusk can throw his bond on Jugg. Grab the Black Ivan kit and you now have a decent bombard jack, that gets even better with superiority. eIrusk can move your slow jacks faster, and even has a decent speed buff for the MoW. That list should at least not completely suck. See if you can get Slyls in there for all the focus you need running 2 jacks with an awesome spell list. Reinholdt should bring you to 25, i like him because i suck at guessing rnge and with Sylys he makes spells nasty again.

[Peg leg Pete]

i disagree with the idea that "psorscha isn't representative of Khador." she may not represent the way our jacks work, but i think she encapsulates our best infantry very well: very mobile, very hard to hit, and able to catch people off guard with threat ranges and assasination vectors. that being said, she can also use her feat very creatively so that she doesn't even have to do that job herself. i'm mostly playing other casters at the moment, but its only because i only had sorscha for so long that i got a little burned out. but, i still have a ball with her when i do dust her off. as for her vs. Kreoss, the only time i've ever beaten the local menoth player was a 15 point game. sorsha sat on a hill and popped the old man in the face with her pistol.

yes its anecdotal, but it is possible to beat him.

[alligatorb8]

I was experiencing similar problems, but I solved them by adding in widowmakers and a war puppy. The war dog makes assassination runs a lot easier, plus he's fun to play; the widowmakers on the other hand, snipe away the choir and plink away at enemy jacks once that's accomplished. All said and done, I like Sorscha, and I think that she has the potential to be very good, even with this list, as long as you're a good player. It may not be newbie friendly, but it is fun to play and can be very rewarding once you master it.