3D Printing and Tabletop

[Gaston]

Hey, I stumbled upon this article recently, and thought I'd post it up here for people.

http://www.wired.com/design/2012/05/...ng-patent-law/

I think it's pretty interesting that we're starting to see the entry of consumer electronics into the manufacturing realm, and as a bunch of hobbyists obsessed with little plastic men, it's not surprising that issues like this one would start to crop up and really opens the book on a whole lot of legal and ethical questions for both sides of the issue.

[PG_jamano]

Yeah it is very interesting to see, few years down the line if they release an affordable "scanner" version I could see something like this be the death of the industry(as we know it at least)

[Gothgar]

I could see mini's companies eventually selling the 3d models for personal use only. That would be a super interesting way to go about it in the future.

[ShoX]

If I was PP this would make me can all the plastic scults immediately and go back to metal. Once they get enough detail so that you can't tell the difference anymore, you can pick up plastic minis for 5$ a pop everywhere.
At least that way I can pick up a Devastator for 35$, put it in a sock and yell "For the Motherland!" while I bludgeon someone to death with it.

[MetaphoricDragon]

On a less legally dubious front, would be an awesome way to get Terrain

[Gaston]

A guy at work already uses one for homemade bases and terrain actually. Nothing fancy, just hills with square slots in them for his WHFB artillery.

[DrakkenBlut]

Regular printers/photocopiers didn't make books/magazines obsolete.

I think that 3d printing will be used by a minority of gamers, as well as enabling the lone artist to publish his minis, but the original models mass made by the companies would still be a cheaper better deal for the average gamer.

[HellecticMojo]

Yeah it is very interesting to see, few years down the line if they release an affordable "scanner" version I could see something like this be the death of the industry(as we know it at least)

I honestly don't see "death" of an industry thing happening.

we had pirated game books and movies and such things far longer than we had bootleg sculpts, and I don't see the industry dead for it. How many times have we called GW out on their practices and called foul, and talked about their business plan gonna drive them out of business in couple of years? They still are in business last time I checked.

people will still end up paying for stuff. digital books didn't put an end to paper books.

I honestly expect legal issues from people who sell them, but us average joes I think will be less impacted than we suspect.

[Stuh42l]

I was thinking about this a great deal this week as ordered a scanner and printer for work. I think the people who can afford a scanner and printer when they beome more marketable in the future are also the people who will just buy the minis. Those people might print another leader to get two min units, but I think thats the extent of it.

The 'ink' for those printers i terribly expensive, as well. Also, the newest, cheapest home use printer is limited to a 5.5" cube of space, so some heavies wouldn't even be possible.

[DrakkenBlut]

I honestly don't see "death" of an industry thing happening.

we had pirated game books and movies and such things far longer than we had bootleg sculpts, and I don't see the industry dead for it. How many times have we called GW out on their practices and called foul, and talked about their business plan gonna drive them out of business in couple of years? They still are in business last time I checked.

people will still end up paying for stuff. digital books didn't put an end to paper books.

I honestly expect legal issues from people who sell them, but us average joes I think will be less impacted than we suspect.

Actually, they did. Publishing houses earn less every year, magazine circulations go down every month. Books will soon be a snobby item.

[PG_jamano]

And the amount of money saved if you could get a whole army bootleg for 10% of retail price vs photocopying a magazine to save a couple bucks, and the products the 3d printers can put out are a far cry from the difference between a glossy magaizne and a photocopied paper

[Lord Sessadore]

Regular printers/photocopiers didn't make books/magazines obsolete.

I think that 3d printing will be used by a minority of gamers, as well as enabling the lone artist to publish his minis, but the original models mass made by the companies would still be a cheaper better deal for the average gamer.

This is a pretty good point. In the case of books/magazines, if you photocopy/print it yourself, you'll usually end up with either a much, much crappier version or a somewhat crappier version that cost more than the original. I can't see the plastic "ink" for a 3-D printer being cheap, myself.

Actually, they did. Publishing houses earn less every year, magazine circulations go down every month. Books will soon be a snobby item.

Thing is, comparing digital books to paper books is like comparing Vassal to playing WM on the table top. To see 3-D printers' impact on the miniatures industry, your earlier comparison is better - photocopying or scanning & printing books/magazines.

Depending on the cost of the printer and the cost of the "ink", I wouldn't be surprised if you'd need to print dozens if not hundreds of minis to actually come out ahead. And even then I doubt they'll be as good as the real thing.

[PG_Gearjock]

I think you'll see a growing trend between casual gamers and tournament goers. Tournaments will be the one place that the company can require you to buy it's products. However, for the casual gamer or a person who likes to play a lot of little things then this won't be an issue.

What I really hope for is that I'll be able to print my own minis and try out many different games. Then if the game stinks, melt them down and re-use the plastic!

[PG_Agamemnon]

People can create their own models currently molding. I don't see plastic counterfeit jacks or even bitz on the interwebz cheap. You can do a serach on youtube and see countless DIY teaching videos yet I have not seen nor heard of anyone building armies after purchasing/borrowing a master.

[Mavwick]

I work for a company which sells 3D Printers from 1200-25,000 dollars and there are models for larger jobs that cost into the millions. We have several of these smaller ones in the office and I know how to work with them, maintain them and troubleshoot their MANY potential problems. (Choosing to stay anonymous at this point!)
Quality miniatures are firmly out of the question for a consumer market for the better part of the next decade. The printers are already a loss-leader in that price range and you cannot get quality 35mm-scale detail until you are spending 10k+ on something the size of a mini-fridge. The materials for them are them vary from 5-20 dollars per cubic inch which sounds reasonable until you see the larger print block needed to make small objects.
The printers in the 1200-3000 dollar range have reasonable material costs at 20-80 dollars a spool that lasts quite a while, but their results are nothing you would want on most miniatures. They work great for small terrain projects and similar applications, like basing or tokens, but all of them need work off the print bed. They are a very sturdy nontoxic plastic that can be rigorously sanded. The cheaper ?dusty? SLS 3d prints are an option for consumers but they do not have the durability we would want for painting and playing pieces. My experience with consumer-level 3d scanners is largely pessimistic, with so much varying topology you might as well design something from scratch. Some companies are sprouting up and they offer 3D scanning at a cost, but I?ve seen some ugly scans from people who charge good money.

That said, the market is evolving rapidly. There are a lot of pie-in-the-sky promises of 3d printing human organs and military or industrial hardware which drives the industry forward. The R&D in those areas moves down to the consumer level at some point, as the old makes way for the new and cheaper markets emerge or less-expensive solutions are discovered.

[Jestor]

People can create their own models currently molding. I don't see plastic counterfeit jacks or even bitz on the interwebz cheap. You can do a serach on youtube and see countless DIY teaching videos yet I have not seen nor heard of anyone building armies after purchasing/borrowing a master.

I know some semi-local people who don't do tournies who have molded and played with more then one "extra jack". It's a much larger pain then it's worth in most cases. Print on demand is a bit different.

Mav - Do you think that 5ish years down the road we will see them become affordable? I know the one we have used for some prototyping at work couldn't make a mini to save it's life

[newbis]

This is an example of a fairly reasonably priced 3D printer that can produce objects without huge strata bands. http://www.solidoodle.com/

I cover emerging tech as my job and it's only been in the last year or so that this cheap of a product has become available. I'd expect the price point to drop even further once a big box store decides its worth putting on the shelves.

[jandrese]

From what I understand, 3D printing was wildly expensive for so long because one company held the patents on the liquid plastic and charged extortionate sums for it, but the patents are expiring soon and there should be much cheaper plastic finding its way to the market. So, while 3D printing has been a niche novelty for the most part for over a decade now, it could be poised to explode into the market with affordable 3D printers finding their way into people's homes.

Anyway, as we have seen with books, movie, tv, software, etc... as long as people have a legal means to buy the product without ridiculous limitations at reasonable prices, they will do so. There will be some pirates too of course, but most of them wouldn't have bought the product in the first place (many can't because they live in countries where it isn't sold for instance). The Music industry is a good case study for this, where they tried horrible online music shops one after another with high prices, highly restrictive DRM, still married to the album format, and very poor selection. Piracy was insanely high. Then Apple came along and showed that if you just give people what they want, they'll give you money for it. As a result, music piracy in countries where iTunes is available and has decent selection are the lowest they've been in a decade, and are continuing to drop. Piracy is a market problem.

A bigger problem might be a completely open source gaming system, where people design and upload their own models to be 3D printed and played. There is already a game that uses Lego in a similar way that looks really interesting. If 3D printing gets cheap enough, such a system could really take off. The biggest hurdle would be finding someone, or maybe a committee, with a good sense of balance who is willing to be the final word on everything about the system to prevent it from getting broken by the munchkin crowd.

[eliassmith27]

I am exited by this tech as a gamer. I like the idea of making minis for my d&d campaign that closely resemble the players using them (or just perfectly fit the character they are supposed to depict).

[Dan from Chicago]

I don't think that 3d printing will be the death of a company like PP. PP is in the fiction and games rules business. Their prime property is their setting. The minis are only one way to monetize that.

[Unknown_Lifeform]

I've looked into 3d printing extensively in preparation for starting my own business (and used it too).

I don't see it as a major threat in terms of piracy - its already possible to pirate models by simply making a mould from a master. I don't see 3d printing making this any easier/cheaper/widespread.

What it does do is make it a lot easier for individuals and small companies to manufacture their own models - someone with decent computer skills (which, lets face it, are widespread in a geeky hobby like wargaming) can 3d sculpt models on a computer and have them printed by a commercial printing company with high quality printers and then make a mould of it. These printing companies can now print directly in steel, making it possible to print moulds for injection moulding machines.

Miniature companies already make use of 3d printing as part of their design process and as it becomes cheaper and more widely available it just becomes even more easier for small start ups to get in on the action.

[Tyr852]

There is a few thresholds to cross before it's it's a viable option but once they are crossed I can see it becoming much more widespread and something I'm sure the miniature companies are trying to figure out how deal with (since almost every other industry is dealing with similar issues).

[Lachlan the Mad]

I think that, 5-10 years down the track or so, when 3D printing becomes semi-standard and there are 2 or 3 accepted formats for 3D printing data, PP should start selling 3D-printable miniatures. It would work kind of like buying an e-version of a rulebook, except that you're buying a 3D model.

[infamousd]

I am 3D printing a custom kraken, that I am modeling in zbrush, for a friend t Gonna cost me 300-400 dollars.

[praxedes]

Making 3d designs for print is my job right now. I can tell you, the economics of the process make it unlikely for a hobbyist.

Consider-

Scanning a model as some have suggested produces millions of points of data. Specialist software is required and a quite complex skill set needed to turn that into a printable model. The process is NOT analogous to scanning a book and printing the scan!

Sculpting for 3d print, which is what I do, again requires specialist software and essentially the same skill set as sculpting a real model. In other words, if you can do this you a probably making your own greens any way!

Printing in 3d to achieve the same quality of finish as a naturally sculpted model requires a high deinfinion printer such as a solidscape. Otherwise visible print lines ruin the detail. Solidscape prints at one sixteenth of the thickness of a human hair, or better, but the results are a brittle wax designed for being destroyed in casting a mould. Mainly used for jewellery. You can print in acrylics but the detail isn't as fine.

Even if you are happy with the detail, and are prepared for the several hours of hand finishing and sanding to get the model looking tabletop perfect, one 30mm infantryman probably cost you up to $60 with no cost scaling for bulk buying.

My company is using the process to produce miniatures, but we have a traditional mould making and metal casting facility. We don't sell the prints directly, and it costs around $400 to turn a print into a centrifugal mould.

So, in all, I doubt the traditional process for modelling is threatened for some time to come! The future may be different, but this is a technology in its infancy, so the doom Sayers may be a little premature!

Russ

[HellecticMojo]

Actually, they did. Publishing houses earn less every year, magazine circulations go down every month. Books will soon be a snobby item.

it changed the businessscape, but it did not end it. you mentioned snobby items, snobby items alone are still a market. Remember the Lobster and the Oyster?

How many time have we heard the death of RPG or death of TV, or movie industry because new avenues opened up, but in the end the market for them stabilizes. People are going to have to adapt, but it doesn't mean the end.

[Lord of ???]

The 3D printers required for getting a good quality finish are the powder based systems.

The extrusion systems kinda suck as you get distinct iterations between the layers.


Powder based printers are becoming much cheaper. The cheapest I have seen was $3500 completed calibrated and delivered anywhere in the world with 2kg powder. The detail level was down to at smallest 0.05 of a mm that level of finish is enough for any detail.


Still at this point unless you were after several armies worth of prints it is unreasonably expensive to just play around with.

[DaPreacherMan43]

Golly gee,

Even with silicone and resin, makin copies isn't cheap until you make lots of them. Oe more than three units. I have tried to learn silicone molding with trenchers, and for me, quality, time and cost isn't a way to save money.

So 3-d printing comes along. $1300 plus spools of plastic wow, I could buy a lot more minis than I could use for that cost...

Uless of course, I wanted to make my own...

[cjkeys]

Yeah, We have had a 3 d printer of sorts for years, Resin Casting. Theoretically a person coudl cast an entire sprue from a game system repeatedly with a 2 part mold..... It doesnt happen though because it is easier and cheaper to just get it from the store. The only thing I woudl consider resin casting is the arms for the Devastator anyway for when the Demolisher comes out so thier arms match.

[Deo85]

The industry is still to young and the cost are still to high to make this a viable options for people. I do not see any "death" of the minni market any time soon. With prices of living raising constantly and the cost of common wares I do not see this becoming a wide spread home appliance at all.

[PG_jamano]

The industry is still to young and the cost are still to high to make this a viable options for people. I do not see any "death" of the minni market any time soon. With prices of living raising constantly and the cost of common wares I do not see this becoming a wide spread home appliance at all.

Do you think those same things will drive people to spend less on their expensive hobby? technology prices can decrease dramatically in short amounts of time, blu ray players cost went down 90% in what, 5 years? In the post where I mention the "death"(which most people ignored the "as we know it" part) I'm speaking of years down the road, and such a machine becoming more affordable and more precise is hardly implausible.

[Stuh42l]

Do you think those same things will drive people to spend less on their expensive hobby? technology prices can decrease dramatically in short amounts of time, blu ray players cost went down 90% in what, 5 years? In the post where I mention the "death"(which most people ignored the "as we know it" part) I'm speaking of years down the road, and such a machine becoming more affordable and more precise is hardly implausible.

There are ways to circumvent people using it to pirate though. Either PP embraces the new tech, and sells the 3d Models to people with printers, or fully integrates war room like software at official events. Thus if you want to play your unit x, you have to scan the barcode that came with the unit/3d model to unlock it in your client. It would be just like games are now with DLC and extra packs and such.

Alternatively, PP could sell models like they do now, and just sell the 3d models with the 'card.' Only models with a valid card/code are legal.

I hope they don't take that route, but who knows how big a threat this type of tech might be in 10 years?

[Tyr852]

Sweet we can have Skylander style units in the future ! I actually have little issue with it if keeps things PP in business though.
While the smaller models are issues atm I've seen other medium sized units from other games that are 99% accurate replicas and unless you knew what you were looking for would never notice although I believe they were molds and not printers.

[Mavwick]

I know some semi-local people who don't do tournies who have molded and played with more then one "extra jack". It's a much larger pain then it's worth in most cases. Print on demand is a bit different.

Mav - Do you think that 5ish years down the road we will see them become affordable? I know the one we have used for some prototyping at work couldn't make a mini to save it's life

They're becoming more affordable every year, but the quality of the more affordable scale is still not desirable for our scale of miniatures. I know several major companies are trying to get genuine $1000 dollar 3D Printers on big box shelves within the year but I do not think those will work for most projects. Anything with layers below .1mm is what you would start to want and that's a much higher price. .1mm ABS/PLA prints get especially sloppy on small elements like a spear or sword, as the plastic is being extruded too fast and does not cool properly before the next layer.

Long story short - Don't spend less than 10k if you want a 10 dollar miniature.

The above poster is right about the soon-expiring patent on liquid polymers. They're the real future in home printing but they will need time past that patent expiration to mature in an open market. You're still asking for some very toxic substances in the home, so the "tabletop" printer with high quality may need to be in a closet with a MSDS warning.