Apotheosis-level Retribution Warjack?

[GunSeraph06]

I wonder what the chances of Retribution getting an Apotheosis-level warjack? I mean, don't get me wrong, we have great heavy warjacks like Banshee, Phoenix, Discordia, and Hypnos, but I was a little disappointed with Hyperion for our Colossal.

I mean, Disco and Hypnos are great, but they are nowhere near the capabilities of DJ, Avatar, Behemoth, or even Thunderhead.

No, this isn't a whining thread that us pointy ears aren't getting as much as other Factions, theres too much of that these days.

I'd like to see a 12 point warjack that synergises well with eVyros, Kaelyssa, or Garryth, I think that would allow PP to flex their creative muscles some and come up with some truly unique abilities/combinations. Granted, it probably wouldn't be a jack for a specific caster, but I could see some neat ideas with the above casters.

Granted, the Phoenix is probably the closest thing we have to an Apotheosis-level jack, I wonder what else something like that could get with 2 more points. Even if it were a character Phoenix with True Sight or a character Manticore with Arcane Assassin, I'd be happy.

I'd like to see an Apotheosis-level jack in the next book, if possible...

What does everyone else think?

[Lord Sessadore]

I think it would be nice, but I think it is unlikely.

The Apotheosis jacks and their power are Mk1 holdovers. Nothing we've seen come out in Mk2 is similar in power level to the Mk1 power pieces, and I think we'll see that trend continue.

In other words, I think it's about as likely as us getting a Denny, Asphyxious, or Haley.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Alas...His Excellency Sessadore is probably correct.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

I dunno. A faction defining warjack seems likely once we have a little more character as a faction. It won't be the Deathjack or Avatar, but those suckers are outliers, not a standard to look for.

[Rampaging Elk]

If you want a faction-defining warjack, ours is probably the Pheonix. It is still one of the best non-character jacks in the game. I doubt we'll get a character warjack that's at the level you want, though I expect we'll eventually get something worth 11 or 12 points.

[jandrese]

The thing is, what would you want in a faction jack? Insane shooting power like the Thunderhead (at the expense of melee power)? Total melee mastery like the Avatar?

What would you expect to see on it? A RNG 14 POW 14 gun with RoF 3, Arcane Assassin, and Phantom Hunter?

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

What would you expect to see on it? A RNG 14 POW 14 gun with RoF 3, Arcane Assassin, and Phantom Hunter?

Uhhh... Yes, please?

[Gho5t]

I think it would be nice, but I think it is unlikely.

The Apotheosis jacks and their power are Mk1 holdovers. Nothing we've seen come out in Mk2 is similar in power level to the Mk1 power pieces, and I think we'll see that trend continue.

In other words, I think it's about as likely as us getting a Denny, Asphyxious, or Haley.

Yeah. PP is super-fixated on keeping it balanced now. It's almost like USA policing WMDs in other countries. "No, you can't have them, even though other countries do." (I live in America; no offense meant.)

Are we going to get one? Probably not?
Should we get one? Maybe-yes?

[Baffler]

The thing is, what would you want in a faction jack? Insane shooting power like the Thunderhead (at the expense of melee power)? Total melee mastery like the Avatar?

What would you expect to see on it? A RNG 14 POW 14 gun with RoF 3, Arcane Assassin, and Phantom Hunter?

I've been thinking about this since the rumored Imperatus.

A Vyros character heavy.

M 6
S 11
MAT 7
RAT 6
DEF 12
ARM 18

L ARM: Shield, +2 Armor, pow 1
R ARM: Some Sort of awesome Reach Sword for POW 7
Some sort of nerdy Gun, idk

Special Rules: Fleet (can spend a focus to move faster.. like Griffon), Pathfinder (if generator is up.. like Griffon), Focus Battery (like Hydra)

That's it. It's my dream jack. I always wanted a heavy with a shield, or a heavy version of a griffon... but eVyros loves some Focus Battery. This is def more like a melee monster, maybe I've jealous of some of Menoth's heavies.

This should probably be 11 or 12 points, depending on the "nerdy gun"

[Legrasse]

Uhhh... Yes, please?

Might as well throw in eyeless sight too.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Might as well throw in eyeless sight too.

Sure, why not? :P

Wasn't my idea in the first place. But, let's face it: It'd take something akin to that to have the power that the Apotheosis-jacks wield. That they retained even a measure of it from Mk. I is unfortunate. That an equivalent is denied to those without is sorrowful.

[GunSeraph06]

I sense sarcasm from jandrese, you forgot True Sight in combination with Arcane Assassin and Phantom Hunter

It wouldn't have to be that powerful as that, and I could see it being a good balanced melee/ranged jack like the manticore...

[PG_Dino-Czar]

I'd accept a warjack with a melee ability like decapitation and a gun with something wacky like... remove upkeeps and animi from models hit. Mat 7/Rat 6. P&S 12/POW 16

Phenix field would be good, Repel is far more likely (actually I'm kind of surprised Ret doesn't have that as a field linked ability).

[Gho5t]

Arcane Assassin.
Phantom Seeker.
True Sight.
RAT 8.
When the model sacrifices its movement for the aiming bonus, the ranged weapon becomes RNG 40 POW 30.
And the gun has Grievous Wounds.

[RetributionBomb]

Its very obvious if you look at all of the Mk2 releases while they can be good or ok, they pale in comparison to things that come from Mk1. We aren't getting a jack on the level of the Deathjack, Thunderhead, Behemoth, or Avatar and it is getting quite annoying to see posts and threads every day asking for one, or speculating on one, or wishing on one.

I want a Mat 7 Jack with Reach. If we get that Id be content.

[Dark Lord of Puppies]

as said before, we'll never have a MKI power level jack. I don't want that, what I do want is a unique character jack. (isn't that what a character jack is, unique?) I want a jack with its own chassis like the character jacks from apotheosis, give me that wih the MkII power curve and I'm happy.

[Rogue Sun]

I don't want anything crazy.

I want a character Gorgon, with reach, Void Lock and Technological Interference.

That's it.

I'll laugh maniacally at the T-head, Behemoth, and Death Jack if we get that. The Avatar I'll just have to kill.

[joelker41]

A 12 point Mega myrmidon just isn't very 'Ret-ish'. Our Myrmidons support. Having a 12 point support piece means we'd somehow get AFG'd again. Give me a myrmidon support caster or a version of junior for Ret first.

[Murkhadh]

The thing is, what would you want in a faction jack? Insane shooting power like the Thunderhead (at the expense of melee power)? Total melee mastery like the Avatar?

What would you expect to see on it? A RNG 14 POW 14 gun with RoF 3, Arcane Assassin, and Phantom Hunter?

Both, like the behemoth?

[Mastershake]

How bout a jack with a POW 18 AoE 5 and Crit Consume....

[GunSeraph06]

I'd kind like to see a 12 point jack that combines technology from Shyeel and Vyre jacks together, I think that would be kind of neat. Not sure if thats what they did for Hyperion or not...

Maybe a better balance between more hull boxes and a smaller shield with regeneration? Two shoulder guns with blade melee weapons on the forearms? I think they could definitely have fun with that...

[pritch64]

Well I could see use getting a good jack because Skorne and Circle got some really good beasts in their last release. So that shows me that MII can put out some good stuff.

[FifthColumn]

How bout a jack with a POW 18 AoE 5 and Crit Consume....

Oh my gosh, if they did that, they could make it like 18 points. My guess is it would only have range 10, though and people would whine.

[ForceFields!!!]

I think i would want a character light more then a big stompy 12 point jack. Nothing nuts like Thorn, but maybe a griffon with affintiy Garryth Grievous wounds on his halberd. I would do that

One of the thing that bugs me about the very nice balance of Mk. II is that the new guys don't get the amazing power of Mk. I stuff left over. I know they don't wanna make a power creep, but guess what? Hordes and Ret still have to deal with that stuff like Avatar and Kovnik Joe.

Not letting use have something like that but still having use deal with it almost seems cruel.

[Bartacus]

I've been thinking about this since the rumored Imperatus.

A Vyros character heavy.

M 6
S 11
MAT 7
RAT 6
DEF 12
ARM 18

L ARM: Shield, +2 Armor, pow 1
R ARM: Some Sort of awesome Reach Sword for POW 7
Some sort of nerdy Gun, idk

Special Rules: Fleet (can spend a focus to move faster.. like Griffon), Pathfinder (if generator is up.. like Griffon), Focus Battery (like Hydra)

That's it. It's my dream jack. I always wanted a heavy with a shield, or a heavy version of a griffon... but eVyros loves some Focus Battery. This is def more like a melee monster, maybe I've jealous of some of Menoth's heavies.

This should probably be 11 or 12 points, depending on the "nerdy gun"

Oooo me likey! Just make it a character Phoenix. Add shield, +1 MAT & RAT, might have to lose combustion to gain Fleet and Focus Battery, but I would go for that at 11/12pts.

[FifthColumn]

I think i would want a character light more then a big stompy 12 point jack. Nothing nuts like Thorn, but maybe a griffon with affintiy Garryth Grievous wounds on his halberd. I would do that

I'll keep dreaming this til it comes true:
Character Light
Stealth
Arc Node
Chain Weapon with Chain Strike
Affinity: Garryth grants Parry.

[joelker41]

I think garryth and Kaelyssa both could use a character light.

[Murkhadh]

While I would love a jack like this I don't think it will ever happen.

[Billingsly]

How bout a jack with a POW 18 AoE 5 and Crit Consume....

for 12 pts? Hell yeah!

18pts is pretty good too.

[Finnigan2004]

As a relative newcomer to Retribution from Circle, I think that this is where the faction falls down competitively against other factions. The old stuff, not the new stuff, causes us the most problems. We have threads that complain about not getting catch up new stuff, but what I really resent is that other factions have broken stuff that we will never get because we are the latecomers. Our casters are not quite at the level of other casters, our character jacks are not quite at the level of other factions earlier character jacks, we won't ever get a Tarterus level solo (not sure Eiryss counts because she's a merc that lots of factions can get too), etc.. I actually saw Cryx players on their forum complaining about Gaspy three because he did not reach the level of his previous incarnations, meaning that he would not get played. I looked at Gaspy 3 and thought he actually looked pretty decent.

I think that Privateer needs to look honestly at the balance between the factions and perhaps give Retribution some more A level, Rahn like casters-- I'm not asking for eHaley or pDenegraha, but the fact that casters like this exist means that we need something that approaches them in power level. If we don't get something approaching par with these older casters, we will always have an uphill fight against factions that have them because why would they use the weaker casters that we're all getting now? That said, I'm not sure if it's absolutely true that Privateer will never allow stuff like the early character jacks through playtesting because I recently got Ghettorix for my Circle forces, and I'm not saying he's equivalent to a Deathjack yet, but early results are indicating that he at least comes close enough. There is still hope.

[joelker41]

As a relative newcomer to Retribution from Circle, I think that this is where the faction falls down competitively against other factions. The old stuff, not the new stuff, causes us the most problems. We have threads that complain about not getting catch up new stuff, but what I really resent is that other factions have broken stuff that we will never get because we are the latecomers. Our casters are not quite at the level of other casters, our character jacks are not quite at the level of other factions earlier character jacks, we won't ever get a Tarterus level solo (not sure Eiryss counts because she's a merc that lots of factions can get too), etc.. I actually saw Cryx players on their forum complaining about Gaspy three because he did not reach the level of his previous incarnations, meaning that he would not get played. I looked at Gaspy 3 and thought he actually looked pretty decent.

I think that Privateer needs to look honestly at the balance between the factions and perhaps give Retribution some more A level, Rahn like casters-- I'm not asking for eHaley or pDenegraha, but the fact that casters like this exist means that we need something that approaches them in power level. If we don't get something approaching par with these older casters, we will always have an uphill fight against factions that have them because why would they use the weaker casters that we're all getting now? That said, I'm not sure if it's absolutely true that Privateer will never allow stuff like the early character jacks through playtesting because I recently got Ghettorix for my Circle forces, and I'm not saying he's equivalent to a Deathjack yet, but early results are indicating that he at least comes close enough. There is still hope.

Ret isn't like every other faction. We need more high level players to play Ret at cons.

Our models are not and cannot be a reason for us to settle for mediocrity. Experience + skill > faction in the long run.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Joel,

I like you, man. But I think that is a fallacious argument that is terribly insulting to the player base.

We've hashed this out in dozens of threads across almost every forum on this site, so I hate to get on to it again: But I don't think it's coincidence that "high level players" ignore some factions and favor others. Some factions are more forgiving with better tools and fewer bad matches. Admitting this is not the sin some people make it out to be.

It's a pure statement of fact.

What it is NOT is an excuse to play poorly or dismiss your opponent's ability based solely on his faction (or yours). It is NOT an excuse to fall into Orthodoxy or Forum-think. But it's also not an indictment of your skill to look through the book and say "How come I can't spend 10 pts that does all that??"

I refuse to accept that Retribution or Cygnar or Mercs or whomever simply attracts players who aren't any good. Maybe that's a little biased since I play both Cygnar and Ret. *shrug* But I don't think it's true because I know too many players, local and otherwise, who have all said "Yeah, I started on elves and it was doing ok for a long while, but then I wanted to take a break so I started up Faction X... I won my first tournament last weekend." Player skill is not the problem. A solid faction with a largely zero margin of error style is far more likely to be the culprit.

EDIT: I also don't want to take away the skill of those "high level players." I am certain many of them could do quite well in other factions (or specific ones) if they wanted. But they don't. Hmmmmmmm....*scratches chin*

[Finnigan2004]

Ret isn't like every other faction. We need more high level players to play Ret at cons.

Our models are not and cannot be a reason for us to settle for mediocrity. Experience + skill > faction in the long run.

Hey Joelker:

You're partially right I think. Player skill is the most important factor. That said, I think that the complete equation probably reads a little closer to this though: Experience+skill+faction > experience+skill >faction. I'm not sure that it's entirely about a lack of high level players. Ret seems to be a popular second faction, but a lack of depth-- particularly at caster-- make it less attractive when looking at tournaments because it's tough to go into certain match ups knowing that your faction simply lacks the models to compete at par, while others do.

[Finnigan2004]

Curse you for beating me to the punch, Dawnlord Ed.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Heh. Sorry, man.

But it's not a new argument. I'm reasonably certain the same faces with the same points of view will likely chime in shortly. I just led the charge on this one.

[joelker41]

Joel,

I like you, man. But I think that is a fallacious argument that is terribly insulting to the player base.

We've hashed this out in dozens of threads across almost every forum on this site, so I hate to get on to it again: But I don't think it's coincidence that "high level players" ignore some factions and favor others. Some factions are more forgiving with better tools and fewer bad matches. Admitting this is not the sin some people make it out to be.

It's a pure statement of fact.

What it is NOT is an excuse to play poorly or dismiss your opponent's ability based solely on his faction (or yours). It is NOT an excuse to fall into Orthodoxy or Forum-think. But it's also not an indictment of your skill to look through the book and say "How come I can't spend 10 pts that does all that??"

I refuse to accept that Retribution or Cygnar or Mercs or whomever simply attracts players who aren't any good. Maybe that's a little biased since I play both Cygnar and Ret. *shrug* But I don't think it's true because I know too many players, local and otherwise, who have all said "Yeah, I started on elves and it was doing ok for a long while, but then I wanted to take a break so I started up Faction X... I won my first tournament last weekend." Player skill is not the problem. A solid faction with a largely zero margin of error style is far more likely to be the culprit.

Whoa whoa whoa. Never said the players who play Ret are bad. Not once.

Our level of player representatives in both numbers and skill at major cons is not at the level of the bigger factions. I know tons of recreational Ret players but most Ret players have Ret as a second faction or even 3rd. The players winning large events have great factions, but they also have a lot of experience with their factions. Lock and load had maybe a half dozen Ret players in masters, only one qualified and he was playing what at the time was considered our bottom 2 casters in Garryth and Vyros1. I ran into eLylyth round 1. The Guy next to me platlying Ret ran into something similar later on.

Complaining that Ret has issues isn't helpful. Playing what we have to the absolute best of your ability is. We need more players at cons. We also need more players who are experienced enough to qualify with reasonable matchups.

I am not saying Ret can win everything in the universe at all times ever, I am saying we really aren't THAT far behind. We have great tools in Ret. Especially with Vyre jacks now.

I'm just sick of the 'we have a right to whine' mentality. The best tournament player in my area is one of my friends and he made fun of me calling Ret a non-real faction. I beat him in his first ever tournament loss after 20+ victories playing my favorite caster (Kaelyssa), my favorite list, and against his best caster he had experience with in eVayl. He puts two of our tournament games as top 5 that he has ever played for how close they were. I have also never lost more than 1 game each time in 6-7 tournaments in my area.

Reason? I stopped being down on Ret. Kaelyssa, Ravyn, Rahn, Ossyan, pVyros theme force I would all happily play in a masters because they can and have won consistently.

Ret can win. Believe it. I'm not saying we are on the same level model rise, but we can be on the same level or better mentally.

[Murkhadh]

............

Nahhhhhhhh

This argument has been had too many times before.

[Omnus]

I just feel like hoping in...

I play in Joel's meta. When he switched from Mercs and Khador to Ret...I was annoyed. I complained because I didn't think Ret was up to snuff and I need my regular opponent to challenge me. I feel a player is only as good as thier opponents. I wanted practice against "real" factions to help me grow as a player. Needless to say I am not the largest fan of Ret.

Joel has proven me wrong. And in all fairness this has been in large part due to the new Vyre Jacks. Joel has regularly been taking 2nd or 3rd at local Steamrollers with Ret. He beat me in my first local steamroller loss with his Kaelyssa triple jack list. We have talked about his lists a lot. It eventually ended with us decided we needed to think outside the box, run less solos and stop thinking about the best lists and think about the best line up.

I still think Ret is on the lower end of the list of factions if If I were to put them in order. But it is not as bad as I thought it was. I would love to see the faction get one more unit and a non-char warcaster attachment that they don't have to share. But ret has game and much more than I thought.

Lock and Load pre-lim had a ret player 4-0 with the highest SoS in the event. When we look at most masters events there are the same players showing up in the top 16 with some slight variance. That is what was Joel is getting at. If a top level ret player was flying to all these events like Neutralyze, Flanzer etc we would probably see more top 8 from ret. I think that is the point. Not that Ret has worse players but there just isn;t as many people playing ret and the players that are playing ret have generally been playing the faction much less than the players that are top8ing at masters events have practiced with thier factions.

I know Joel pretty well and I think he is trying to say that as the good ret players get some more experience, and get just a few more options...Ret has some serious potential.

[PMAvers]

Personally, I'd be cool with a Apotheosis-style character jack...

...as long as it wasn't a upgrade kit. I want a big & fancy character 'jack that actually looks the dang part. It doesn't have to be Apotheosis-OP as long as it looks cool.

[Verruckt]

The talk from L&L about ERhan potentially rocking some Field Manipulation abilities got me thinking. I know we'd be reticent to accept a 12 point support piece, but let me suggest the following three abilities in conjunction:
Same field size as Hyperion.
Twice the number of generator boxes present on a normal heavy.
Ofc Phoenix Field
And then the big fat ability that makes it his the table at 12 points: Damage dealt to jacks with functional generator systems in this Warjack's battle group may be redistributed into the field boxes of any other jack in the battle group (Think Bastions).

The kind of tar pit that would create would be monumental. Maybe even let it burn a box of generator to endow another jack with a d6 field heal, some kind of over boost.
That's my pipe dream anyway.