Most and Least playable Colossal

[Ivellis]

The Galleon is the best simply because it was the most needed, a lot of merc armies lacked heavy hitting, they can have it now. Obviously Stormwall is good, after that I'd say Judicator is next, then all the rest are about even.

[The Happy Anarchist]

The least played will be Kraken sense it clears infantry in a faction that can do this all ready for 10 pnts (Harrower) and is in a infantry heavy faction

I don't get this. Yes it is nominally capable of clearing infantry - but it is actually worse than almost all of them at clearing infantry. It is much better at dealing with hard targets, taking advantage of 4" reach and chain strike, and most importantly for the faction is a survivable model in a faction that has pretty much one other option for survivable non-caster models, and it is a character.

[StefDa]

I'd probably say

1. Stormwall
2. Galleon
3. Hyperion
4. Kraken
5. Judicator
6. Conquest

Being a Khador player I'm sad about Conquest's bottom placement, but he simply brings nothing we can't already replicate with smaller models and less points. I couldn't care less about 4 POW (*FREAKING*) 6 Creeping Barrages. It won't do anything worthwhile. Even if your opponnent charges a full unit+UA of something with ARM 13-14 into the Conquest, there will still be far too many that actually reach Conquest's enormous base for the POW 6 (grumble grumble) AOEs to have mattered. They're far too unreliable. However, if my opponnent tries to charge Conquest with Kayazy Assassins/Nyss Hunters/something ARM 12< they might make a difference, but really - who'd do that? And when Conquest gets bogged down he only has MAT 6 for his Sweep. Sigh.

I'd much rather have fewer AOEs with higher POW than what it has now... I don't care about the POW of the original weapon, but POW 9-10 would have been proper for a 19 points Colossal. Oh well, too late. Oh, and he's the Colossal with the least armour (20 natural, a whopping one way of buffing this - Harkevich's feat). Way to go.

That said, he's still a Colossal, and he will still be incredible on the table. I'm getting him as soon as possible, I'll play him and I'll love it, no doubt about it. He's the "least playable" (wrong expression here I think) and simply by this virtue he will be worth his points I think. I know I'm contradicting the beginning of my own post here, but that part was a comparison between the Colossals.

It'll really take a miracle to bring down a Colossal since any even remotely savvy player will screen him with something. I'm feeling Man-O-War Shocktroopers If properly supported any Colossal is fantastic, Conquest just so happens to require a bit more of it than the others.

I'm glad I play Protectorate as well - pSeverius will love the Judicator! +3 to attack/damage rolls, an extra attack, +2 ARM/DEF and he's golden.

[scout's honor]

It'll really take a miracle to bring down a Colossal since any even remotely savvy player will screen him with something. I'm feeling Man-O-War Shocktroopers

It takes quite a bit of points to really screen a model on a colossal base. Cheap models will be too easy to take out, and with too few models you can't block of charge lanes sufficiently. That means you're down 19 points for a Konquest, and another 10 or so to keep it more or less safe. What do you have left to go for the assassination or scenario victory after that, since I doubt these models will further your tactic to win very much unless you bring them up, where they'll be more vulnerable again?

I'm presenting this a bit more negatively than strictly necessary, but I do feel that if you want to get good use out of a Konquest you'll often have little choice but to put it in a position where an opponent who wants to can have a decent go at cracking it - Harkevich notwithstanding, perhaps.

[StefDa]

Five Man-O-War Shocktroopers are 200 mm wide, Conquest is roughly 125 mm wide (at the CENTRE LINE). Having the Shocktroopers some 2" in front of Conquest should adequately screen him. This way you'll often have to eat a free strike from a Shocktrooper if you want to go around them. A Shocktrooper's Reach is approximately 50 mm, so they actually "occupy" 300 mm of horizontal space if you add their bases and their free strike range. Even then, if you feel this is not enough, you could spread them out (losing shield wall but getting much more coverage). Again, with their Reach they could be 2" apart - if you try to run between two of them you'll eat two MAT 7+2 P+S 13+3D6 hits.

The MoW ST screen won't last forever, but I wager it can last long enough for you to get the big guy into a position where it can either punch something or shoot the hell out of it.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's not shabby. I love me some MoW ST at any rate, and they're always on screening duty anyway. I'll only be happy they get something big and really valuable to screen

And if my opponnent flanks me to such a degree he can get something completely around my MoW ST line and hit Conquest (and actually do any worthwhile damage to the big guy) I deserve it anyway.

[scout's honor]

Five Man-O-War Shocktroopers are 200 mm wide, Conquest is roughly 125 mm wide (at the CENTRE LINE). Having the Shocktroopers some 2" in front of Conquest should adequately screen him. This way you'll often have to eat a free strike from a Shocktrooper if you want to go around them. A Shocktrooper's Reach is approximately 50 mm, so they actually "occupy" 300 mm of horizontal space if you add their bases and their free strike range. Even then, if you feel this is not enough, you could spread them out (losing shield wall but getting much more coverage). Again, with their Reach they could be 2" apart - if you try to run between two of them you'll eat two MAT 7+2 P+S 13+3D6 hits.

Sure, but then you're looking at close to 30 points like I said, and they're not contributing much to contesting the scenario or even threatening the enemy caster at least for the first few rounds (certain casters can mitigate this somewhat, admittedly). I think I'd rather restrict the potential attacks against the Konquest somewhat and then count on it's ARM and boxes in combination with 2-3 points of battle mechaniks to keep that thing running. You definitely want to protect it, I completely agree on that account: it's arguably the easiest Colossal to take out unless the player assigns models to protecting it, considering the spell options the various factions have. I just don't think positioning and screening it to the point that you're effectively trying to avoid anything charging it whatsoever is not effective for the points you sink into that.

[PG_LunarSol]

Conquest is probably the worst Colossal, but he's probably not the least playable. Khador has a pretty shallow list viable non-character jacks and Conquest does a pretty adequate job of replacing two jacks in our lists. Behemoth may arguably do what he does better (and sadly, not just "for his points") but you can't take Behemoth in every list. I'm just as frustrated that he couldn't have had something more, bucklers that made him ARM 21 in the arc they were active, POW 7 on the secondary guns, anything, but at the same time, I'm also aware that with Khador's iffy jack lineup, he's still a pretty attractive option. I don't think Khador has enough to fall into the cheaper, better options quite as quickly as some of the other factions.

[Defenstrator]

I don't think any of the Colossals are bad. Already a big difference has been noted in scenario play. The old tricks like slams, pushes, throws, Repulsion, Force Hammer, etc, just don't work on them. Even the Conquest, which many people feel is bringing more of the same, brings them in a unique package.

And if there are people who aren't thrilled by the Judicator they should remember that they have the Choir, and that not all jacks are the Reckoner whoch would be a great jack in any faction. Hyperion also looks pretty decent having the most damage boxes, some great shooting, and a lot od solid in faction support.

As for the Kraken, there is a guy talking about his experiences here. http://www.focusandfury.com/forum/in...5.msg78878#new He's taking two of them and seems to be tearing it up. So Doom from Cryx players seems unfounded.

I tend to think of them more in terms in which ones are bringing extra to the faction. So the top tier would be the Galleon, Stormwall, and maybe Hyperion. The Mercs don't have a jack that hits harder than POW 17, and while our jacks are cheap it's still pretty weaksauce for a dedicated melee jack. The only reason Menoth gets away with it is the Choir. Cygnar also depends on jacks to be their heavy hitters, which is often tough becuase heavies that are good at shooting tend to also be weaker in melee. This lays down fire and can follow up with POW 20 fists. And Ret players don't like to field too many jacks, and the Hyperion fits the bill and seems to synergise well with a lot of their warcasters and support.

After that come the Kraken, Conquest, and Judicator, which both look decent but less universal. Not that the others are completely universal, but these three seem to need to have a more focused army and the right warcaster support to shine.

[x3tsniper]

Conquest is probably the worst Colossal, but he's probably not the least playable. Khador has a pretty shallow list viable non-character jacks and Conquest does a pretty adequate job of replacing two jacks in our lists. Behemoth may arguably do what he does better (and sadly, not just "for his points") but you can't take Behemoth in every list. I'm just as frustrated that he couldn't have had something more, bucklers that made him ARM 21 in the arc they were active, POW 7 on the secondary guns, anything, but at the same time, I'm also aware that with Khador's iffy jack lineup, he's still a pretty attractive option. I don't think Khador has enough to fall into the cheaper, better options quite as quickly as some of the other factions.

This pretty accurately describes my feelings for conquest. I am still thinking about ignoring him in favor of a destroyer or 2 destroyers in certain lists.

[Frozen Yakman]

Sure, but then you're looking at close to 30 points like I said, and they're not contributing much to contesting the scenario or even threatening the enemy caster at least for the first few rounds (certain casters can mitigate this somewhat, admittedly).

The over-importance of the SPD stat is a factor of scenario play that needs to be fixed before I can seriously consider it a valid variation from standard play. (Sort of like timed-variants are invalid because they discourage massed AOE or massed cheap troops).

[DemonCalibre]

Conquest is probably the worst Colossal, but he's probably not the least playable. Khador has a pretty shallow list viable non-character jacks and Conquest does a pretty adequate job of replacing two jacks in our lists. Behemoth may arguably do what he does better (and sadly, not just "for his points") but you can't take Behemoth in every list. I'm just as frustrated that he couldn't have had something more, bucklers that made him ARM 21 in the arc they were active, POW 7 on the secondary guns, anything, but at the same time, I'm also aware that with Khador's iffy jack lineup, he's still a pretty attractive option. I don't think Khador has enough to fall into the cheaper, better options quite as quickly as some of the other factions.

While I think Conquest is the least interesting colossal in line with it's respective faction. I actually think people are vastly underestimating how hard Conquest is to kill.

I have only had him one turned once, and that was because He shanked a bunch of rolls and didn't kill a Sycthean, and a Carnivean with Draconic blessing rolled beast mode and shelled him.

Other then that, he has taken a massive beating every game and walked away from it. He is insanely hard to kill, and it's non-contingent durability. Storm Wall looks stronger till you remember Eyriss2 exists, Purification exists, and Hex Blast exists. Which means his arc shield is going to be swept off frequently. Same for Kraken, Galleon, etc.

Remember durability that requires no synergy is a benefit, not a weakness, the extra boxes are also brutal on Conquest with our mechanics. One Squad of mechanics means you can't soften Conquest. Also these mechanics mean once your opponent commits to conquest he is on the clock to put him down before the mechanics make him impossible to kill. (one the mechanics heal him over 40hp again, he basically stop being one turnable, which means you lose another heavy trying to take him down.)

[Driver]

I think the Judicator may be the most anti-infantry of all of them, with 8 pow 9 Aoe 3s flying around murdering things.

[x3tsniper]

I think the Judicator may be the most anti-infantry of all of them, with 8 pow 9 Aoe 3s flying around murdering things.

I think he tops out at 6 AoEs with the vassal.

[Deo85]

Wait how many shooting weapons does the Judicator have O.o to dish out 6 AoE's a turn is insane talk about carpet bombing

[hausdorff space]

I think he tops out at 6 AoEs with the vassal.

Anastasia can give it another two AoEs ... though I don't imagine many opponents being keen to let that happen.

[Driver]

I think he tops out at 6 AoEs with the vassal.

Can you not use 2 Vassals?

[jonconcarne]

As for the Kraken, there is a guy talking about his experiences here. http://www.focusandfury.com/forum/in...5.msg78878#new He's taking two of them and seems to be tearing it up. So Doom from Cryx players seems unfounded.

I've proxied 2 games with it so far. While I haven't had as much success as Hollywood has, I really like the thing with Gaspy3 and theorymachine like it with several others if only because of it being so much more survivable than anything else in-faction. Add in the BFG and 4" reach ignoring shields... mmmmm, I like it a lot.

Can you not use 2 Vassals?

Ancilliary Attack is only once per turn on a model I think.

[jandrese]

Yeah, you can only Ancillary Attack a model once per turn. That's why Vanquishers aren't AoE 4 gatling guns.

[Khador247]

Hmm so I'm getting a jack that has two P&S 22 attacks with reach and pathfinder and a POW 15 RNG 15 gun that has a 4 inch AOE and does crit devastation on a jack that can't be moved, knocked down, made stationary or disrupted. Oh yeah I get a pile of hit boxes and can keep my caster behind it. I've got a whole unit of dudes that can repair it too. That doesn't even touch on all of the casters that can help it hit more reliably and do more damage either. I get two new power attacks too. Sure the nipple guns are weak. I'd rather get two POW 12 AOEs rather than four POW 4 AOEs but I think people are really fixating on that too much. I can't wait to get my Conquest.

I also look forward to the day when I get my Widowmaker warcaster that can give it Snipe and or Deadeye. Make it happen PP. Make it happen.

[MathPasta]

And its all attached to a wonderful Mat 6 Rat 4 speed 4 Defence 7, huge based, hard to move around, even harder to shield from ranged attacks and costs a minuscule 19 points.

[Khador247]

And its all attached to a wonderful Mat 6 Rat 4 speed 4 Defence 7, huge based, hard to move around, even harder to shield from ranged attacks and costs a minuscule 19 points.

MAT 6. Not great certainly but not terrible. Signs and Portents, Hand of Fate, Superiority, Unearthly Rage, Full Throttle and Fortune all help with hitting in melee off the top of my head. We also have casters that can lower DEF or make them stationary and a unit that does that as well.

RAT 4. Obviously you want crit devastation here. Even if you miss though you're still getting POW 8 blast damage with a 4 inch AOE. If you want to directly hit then obviously you probably don't want to be shooting at DEF 15 Gun Mages. Shoot at a target with lower DEF. Do I wish it was more than RAT 4? Hell yeah but it isn't. Behemoth is also RAT 4 so I'm used to it I guess. I'm looking at him primarily as a melee jack with a big gun and a couple of very situational secondary guns.

DEF 7. Meh. Our jacks are DEF 10. How often to opponents miss your jacks? Not very often. Not a big deal in my book.

Hard to move around? Sure. I'll give you that. He is also going to be hard for your opponent to move around though. All Colossals are in the same boat here.

Hard to shield from ranged attacks? Absolutely. Thankfully he's ARM 20 and has a lot of hit boxes and if you're smart you'll have Mechaniks on stand by to fix it.

Is 19 pts a lot? Heck yeah. In a faction that struggles to support more than two jacks though I think we're getting quite a bit for those points.

I haven't used it yet like some of you have. Time will tell I guess.

[MathPasta]

Anyway, Il be posting me experiences with him on the Khador page

[x3tsniper]

Anyway, Il be posting me experiences with him on the Khador page

I have done 2 battle reports with conquest specifically so far. Both games were meh for him. The second one was with Harkevich, and he did a lot of things, but nothing that I felt he had to be around for. He probably will make it in there regularly, because he is great for scenario, and Harkevich is probably one of the best casters for him, but that is a spriggan and a Demolisher right there.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I'd probably say
Being a Khador player I'm sad about Conquest's bottom placement, but he simply brings nothing we can't already replicate with smaller models and less points. I couldn't care less about 4 POW (*FREAKING*) 6 Creeping Barrages. It won't do anything worthwhile. Even if your opponnent charges a full unit+UA of something with ARM 13-14 into the Conquest, there will still be far too many that actually reach Conquest's enormous base for the POW 6 (grumble grumble) AOEs to have mattered. They're far too unreliable. However, if my opponnent tries to charge Conquest with Kayazy Assassins/Nyss Hunters/something ARM 12< they might make a difference, but really - who'd do that? And when Conquest gets bogged down he only has MAT 6 for his Sweep. Sigh.

I'd much rather have fewer AOEs with higher POW than what it has now... I don't care about the POW of the original weapon, but POW 9-10 would have been proper for a 19 points Colossal. Oh well, too late. Oh, and he's the Colossal with the least armour (20 natural, a whopping one way of buffing this - Harkevich's feat). Way to go.

Your thinking about the AOEs wrong. You don't keep the Kayazy, McThralls, Bloodwitches, etc etc from charging the Conquest. You keep them from charging pretty much anything in your list. You can put them way out there, and even against ARM 13 they will kill 40% of them, which isn't insignificant at all. Sure ARM 14 and higher gets pretty crazy, but you can kill a couple, and that can make a difference in the long game.

[MathPasta]

A difference worth 19 points? At least I don't think so.

[Kuwanger23]

If you stop a unit of Satyxis from charging you even once those guns paid off in full. And they certainly cannot go through those covering fires. If you stop blood trackers from walking up tossing weapon master sticks in your face then retreating you are doing well. A little board control is a good thing. However the down side is it won't come into play every game. But it is nice to have.

[PG_jamano]

If you stop a unit of Satyxis from charging you even once those guns paid off in full. And they certainly cannot go through those covering fires. If you stop blood trackers from walking up tossing weapon master sticks in your face then retreating you are doing well. A little board control is a good thing. However the down side is it won't come into play every game. But it is nice to have.

I think the most annoying part is that it will never stop the Satyxis you really want to stop, raiders.

[MathPasta]

Actualy since the nipple gun templates are blast damage the Raiders will actually ignore them due to UA.

And against blood witches it will only work on 8s.

[OrsusSmash]

Your thinking about the AOEs wrong. You don't keep the Kayazy, McThralls, Bloodwitches, etc etc from charging the Conquest. You keep them from charging pretty much anything in your list. You can put them way out there, and even against ARM 13 they will kill 40% of them, which isn't insignificant at all. Sure ARM 14 and higher gets pretty crazy, but you can kill a couple, and that can make a difference in the long game.

This.

With Conquest, the way you keep him from getting charged is the same way you keep all the other Khador warjacks from being charged: place them as carefully as you can, and screen them with stuff that will be a pain for your opponent to weed out. Conquest has the added benefit that your opponent can't just pull it into charge range, or push/slam it out to be irrelevant. With the Main Guns, Conquest can comfortably sit back and shell the enemy, and with Reach it doesn't need to be as aggressive as our other 'jacks to be in a good counter-charge position.

Creeping Barrages are an irritation tool more so than an outright denial tool. They're weak enough that your opponent is rarely going to completely balk at moving through them if they have to, but they're also just barely dangerous enough against most infantry that enough rolls will pick off a few guys. You can either blanket a swathe of the table with them, or layer the templates up to get multiple rolls against models going through a high priority area (i.e. right in front of models that will be charging or charged.) Its an interesting and versatile tool, albeit a conditional one due to the low POW (probably for the sake of overall balance.)

As for Raiders: I've hated them since the end of the Field Test. Khador keeps getting more and more sources of blast damage, which is all well and good except for things like Raiders that flat out ignore it, but are also otherwise prime targets for it. It forces you to build your list with diversity in mind, which is good, but I feel like Khador has relatively few good solutions to Raiders at range, which is rough.

[jandrese]

As for Raiders: I've hated them since the end of the Field Test. Khador keeps getting more and more sources of blast damage, which is all well and good except for things like Raiders that flat out ignore it, but are also otherwise prime targets for it. It forces you to build your list with diversity in mind, which is good, but I feel like Khador has relatively few good solutions to Raiders at range, which is rough.

The good news is that if you crit, Force Barrier won't do anything to save them from being thrown. The bad news is that you have to hit DEF 16 Raiders with a RAT 4 warjack. Also, you have to crit, which never happens when you really need it to.

[x3tsniper]

The good news is that if you crit, Force Barrier won't do anything to save them from being thrown. The bad news is that you have to hit DEF 16 Raiders with a RAT 4 warjack. Also, you have to crit, which never happens when you really need it to.

The critical hits never happen, but what sucks, is that you need that 3rd focus just to hit most of the time. It is so very aggravating. I found myself broadsiding needlessly last night just trying to get a critical devastate on my opponent.

Out of maybe 25-30 shots boosted with maybe 3-4 unboosted, I have had one critical devastate.

Also yes the raiders are immune to the templates as they are not covering fire for some reason, but blast damage. Don't see those witches often, and they probably wouldn't want to go after Conquest at all, since all they would do is scrape his armor. Also that they do their stuff against living models.

[jandrese]

Welcome to the hell that is the Mule. When it works, it is a thing of beauty. When it's not working you just get more and more frustrated at the stupid thing for not doing its job.

IMHO, the Conquest was not balanced well. I would have done something like:
Arkantricklly Enhanced Ammunition: When firing this weapon, this model may spend 1 focus to cause Devastation. When an attack with Devastation hits, instead of suffering a normal damage roll, each model in the AOE is thrown d6˝ directly away from the attacker regardless of its base size. Move models farthest from the attacker first. The model directly hit by the attack suffers a POW 15 damage roll. Other models hit by the attack suffer a POW 8 damage roll. The POW of collateral damage is equal to the POW of the damage roll suffered by the thrown modes.

Always-on Devastate would have been a little nutty with Broadside I think, and there are times when you might not want to Devastate with the gun (when you don't want to throw the target out of charge range for something else), and I think a focus to activate such a powerful effect is a fair trade. It would have reduced the problem with the RAT too, since you wouldn't be required to directly hit anymore.

[whats82]

There's no effect in the game that guarantees a devastation. I think it's intentional to keep it that way. Just compare that to momentum, which is already an awesome effect, it slams a single medium or smaller and kd a large.

[MathPasta]

Also yes the raiders are immune to the templates as they are not covering fire for some reason, but blast damage. Don't see those witches often, and they probably wouldn't want to go after Conquest at all, since all they would do is scrape his armor. Also that they do their stuff against living models.

Opposite: Hes the only wipping boy who will live long enough for them to transfer enough damage (Through that ability they have) to your warcaster to kill him.

If they see a colossal. they will dart to it.

[jandrese]

The Raiders are going to love the Conquest. Their normal problem is that with Feedback, Power Swell, and a charge they kill the jack before doing enough damage to kill the caster. That's much less of a problem against a Colossal with 60 some boxes.

[Lord Sessadore]

Opposite: Hes the only wipping boy who will live long enough for them to transfer enough damage (Through that ability they have) to your warcaster to kill him.

If they see a colossal. they will dart to it.

The raiders have Feedback, the witches don't. That was his point - the raiders are the ones immune to blasts with the UA, and they are the ones you have to worry about charging Conquest. The witches really don't have any purpose to charge Conquest.

[MathPasta]

Gah. I though they where all raider witches. Whats the difference?

But whatever. You know, the "Light infantry scrapping giant godzilla sized monster" is beginning to get really annoying. It reminds me how this is a backwards universe where giant metal 8 ton robots need protection from guys with axes only good for chopping wood.

[RuneGrey]

I'm not convinced that Raiders charging Conquest is the kiss of death for your caster. Even with Power Swell up, Raiders without some sort of damage buff are still rolling at -12 against it, which means that slightly less than half on average will be doing any damage whatsoever to it. Debuffs are a bigger problem, but the more models you need to pack in there the more effort your opponent is dedicating to killing the Conquest, and you eventually will run out of room.

Now pSkarre is an entirely different matter - POW 14 + POW 13 Satyxis Weapon Masters are no joke to anything that they can get their hooks and horns on, but that's true of everything in the game. Dark Shroud is also an option, but if you're talking actual list building as opposed to magic bullets to kill Conquest, you're probably looking at a 25 point table commitment (Full Bane Thralls + UA, Full Satyxis Raiders + UA, Tartarus) to counter or take down the Conquest in 1 turn. Just use Tartarus and the Satyxis for the Feedback loop and you're still looking at 14 points - not a tremendous investment, but still a hefty chunk of the Conquest's value + a feat and no guarantee that they'll actually scrap it that turn.

And you can argue that if you're allowing 11 feated Satyxis + Tartarus to dogpile a feedbacked Conquest at once that you either deserve what's coming at that point or have a great opportunity to clean up a lot of your opponent's models.

[Lord Sessadore]

The concern with the satyxis raiders is not them scrapping Conquest. As you said, at dice -12 they aren't going to do much damage. Even with a damage buff (it's Cryx, there'll be one) they probably won't scrap it.

The concern is the 10-12 damage they'll pile onto your caster through Feedback. In fact, not scrapping the colossal is arguably better, because now however many satyxis survive have a chance of finishing off your caster next turn if you can get the damage buffs to them. Fielding a colossal against Feedback/Backlash is inviting assassination by proxy.

[PG_jamano]

The concern with the satyxis raiders is not them scrapping Conquest. As you said, at dice -12 they aren't going to do much damage. Even with a damage buff (it's Cryx, there'll be one) they probably won't scrap it.

The concern is the 10-12 damage they'll pile onto your caster through Feedback. In fact, not scrapping the colossal is arguably better, because now however many satyxis survive have a chance of finishing off your caster next turn if you can get the damage buffs to them. Fielding a colossal against Feedback/Backlash is inviting assassination by proxy.

Aren't they dice -11? and with parasite thats 60 boxes on average if the unit gets in there(which isn't hard with spd 7 reach and desperate pace)even just dark shroud is pretty close(or dark shroud and crippling grasp/feat with denny)
edit: and not to mention if theyre close enough they can CMA some horns. Seen those buggers scrap a clamjack too many times