Is it possible to win with lots of warjacks?

[Telluric]

Can you give me an example of a tournament winning army build, any point total, that includes at least 3 heavy warjacks?

I know this is an old question that's been hashed over a million times, but I just want to ask it again to see if anything's changed in the last 4 years that I'm not picking up in my research. The most common type of event winning list seems to basically be power units and solos with one warjack so as not to waste the bonus points from the warcaster. I'm wondering, essentially, has anything strategically changed to make anything else viable?

[Mercykiller]

Colossals are going to change the meta quite a bit when they become more widespread. Things like the Stormwall tend to decimate our high DEF weaponmasters/WGI. Your question is actually in flux a bit right now as a result. I fully expect to see more heavy jack armies taking to the field as a result of the Colossals.

[DeathInFrance]

Heck yeah you can win with all jack armies! It'll be a lot harder to pull of at a tournament, but it's still a ton of fun.

When I started playing a few years back all I had were heavy jacks. A lot of my early games were built around those types of armies, & when I got Karchev FORGET IT I was all about heavies. As people in my LGS caught on I toned it down, but anyway that was a few years ago.

From time to time I'll still put an army like this together just to see my friends' expressions.

[x3tsniper]

It has always been possible to win with a jack heavy army. I have even won a couple of mangled metal tournaments, but it is pretty much never optimal for us.

[Mercykiller]

I will put out there that Conquest gives a heavy-armor army a hell of a lot more ranged infantry-killing power than we've ever had in a jack before. In many ways he plugs the anti-infantry hole in a mostly-jack list, although as pointed out in another thread high ARM stealthed infantry and blast-immune high-DEF remain a problem. Those will be your worst matchups (aka Cryxian banes and Satyxis with the UA).

[MathPasta]

Its VERY tough. But again, subjectively its possible to win with an army of assault commando's and Kossites.

But objectively jacks are a sub-par choice.

[rivenwyrm]

Satyxis with the UA.

Who, I might add, will possibly straight up kill your caster with Backlash if they can get to Conquest, because he'll stick around for the full unit to hit him

[Telluric]

Heck yeah you can win with all jack armies! It'll be a lot harder to pull of at a tournament, but it's still a ton of fun.

Perhaps you could provide an example of what you have in mind? I'd invite anyone else to show their work as well. I'm very curious and it would mean a lot to me to learn about it.

Warjacks seem to suffer from very poor core stats - RAT/MAT/DEF as well as having very few attacks. This means that they seem only good against other single large targets with poor defense. Even with power attacks like Trample, it seems hard to imagine a warjack being successful without lots of help. This was true in MKI, but even with the massive discount in points they get in MKII, it still seems like 9 points of troops will do vastly more damage and manuever better... and tournament lists I've been reading seem to bear that out, filled as they are with lots of power solos.

[PG_Draxos]

I ran the following at a local con and took second.

Prime butcher
Kodiak x2
Beast 09
Dog

MoW DC
Winter guard deathstar
Yuri
drakhun + dismount

The mix of high arm.and def created a great deal of trouble for many people since they could only deal with one at a time in most lists.

[rivenwyrm]

Perhaps you could provide an example of what you have in mind? I'd invite anyone else to show their work as well. I'm very curious and it would mean a lot to me to learn about it.

The fact is that Khador (outside the Karchev hardcore win last year, forget what tourney), has as far as these forums know, never taken a 64-128 player tournament with more than 2 jacks in any of that players' lists. I come to this conclusion since almost all of Khador's large tourney wins derive from Jamie Perkins, perhaps the most diehard infantry-machiner with big wins on record.

Let it be noted though, that I believe his most recent Old Witch list was Spriggan + Behemoth, which is near as much as 3 PoM warjacks.

[Telluric]

The fact is that Khador (outside the Karchev hardcore win last year, forget what tourney), has as far as these forums know, never taken a 64-128 player tournament with more than 2 jacks in any of that players' lists.

This is my impression from my research, but I always feel like it is best to come and ask about it.

Here's a hypothetical list at 50pts;

Karchev
9 Berserkers

How will this list do against a variety of opponents? Presumably, this list plays with Karchev in the middle of a ring or at the back of a mass of Berserkers, casting Unearthly Rage every turn to improve their chances to hit and damage. Now, if this is a valid direction for thinking, then there's probably a way to cut back on a few Berserker to add in a few things that might help, like a Mech squad or some such. The point isn't whether this example is directly useful, but whether this line of thinking is valid.

Here's a Karchev Tier 4 list at 50pts;

Karchev
* Behemoth
* Destroyer
* Destroyer
5 man MoW Demo Corps
5 man MoW Shocktroopers
6 man Mechaniks w/ attached MoW Mech
Greylord Ternion

Presumably, Karchev is upkeeping Tow, allocating a focus or so to each warjack, dragging the warjacks around so that they don't move - that's 4 shots per round with effectively RAT 6, POW 14, in a 3" AoE, boosted to hit. The force is screened by the MoW and the basic battle plan is grinding the opponent down through attrition... and this list employs 3 heavies. Is this a competitive interpretation of the concept of "jack heavy"? Does this have lots of crippling matchups that cost you any chance of doing well at a competitive tournament? It's harder for me to see the answer to this ... especially as you vary this more reasonable list to make a power slide more viable or work in a Drakhun or something.

[MathPasta]

Well 4 boosted pow 14 shots for 31 points (Sorry 29) isn't that impressive to be honest. It also leaves Kharchev in an iffy position.

In my opinion. The MOWs defenses shatter like a stack of pancakes. Especially the Demolition Cores.

[Telluric]

Well 4 boosted pow 14 shots for 31 points isn't that impressive to be honest. It also leaves Kharchev in an iffy position.

In my opinion. The MOWs defenses shatter like a stack of pancakes. Especially the Demolition Cores.

Well obviously, you're buying more than that. That's something to do while you are working up to something else, like say a power slide attack... I'm implying that when I suggest that you could replace a Destroyer with say a Spriggan. I've seen lists for Karchev (presumably the most warjack oriented Khador caster?) that are little more than variants on this idea - if you replace the jacks in the example with power slide jacks, does that change much? If you replace the MoWs with Devastators, does that change much? It's not a tier list then, but dropping the Greylords would cover the point spread.

It seems to me the answer is probably no. Many opponents in a competitive environment will be able to outmanuever most variations on this - jacks don't provide enough screening ability. They're too easily disrupted. Their offensive output is too low for what they cost.

I wish it were another way, but it seems to be the way things are coming out.

[philipcryx]

i like pVlad because S&P help them hit and his feat help them get into combat faster...

[wargolem]

Khador
Standard Army
PCs: 50 / 50
14 models

[00] Karchev the Terrible (0 / 5 WJ remaining)
[02] >> Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker
[13] >> Behemoth
[08] >> Kodiak
[08] >> Kodiak
[02] Battle Mechaniks (3 grunts)
[04] Greylord Ternion
[09] Gun Carriage
[09] Gun Carriage

Has a lot of pathfinder, a lot of AOE, a lot of heavy armor and a min unit of mechaniks to repair. Also has access to magic weapons with unearthly rage + has magic shotguns. Best to run sidearms and screen with the Kodiaks though. Remember the gun carriage knocks down on hit not on crit so even if you do not dent something it will be knocked down and pretty much auto hit by ranged since mount does not count as a melee weapon so you will not be engaging the model knocked down so no model in melee penalty.


I hope to try it in a big tournament soon and will let you know the outcome.

[HeroZero]

I run 3 jacks with hark @ 50 and do very very well.
in case your wondering
harkevich
Sylys Wysnalyrr
behemoth
Spriggan
Black Ivan
max winter guard rifle corps
Kovnik Joe
doom reavers
widowmakers

general plan is shoot the crap out of dangerous units with a fortune + Joe boosted winter guard and widow makers. Drop enough hot AoE action that high def stealth units cringe and apply jack liberally to face when it matters.

[John of Arc]

When you buy our warjacks, you're paying for low MAT, high POW attacks and durability. Lots of Khador warjacks are too much for most lists to chew through, but they also don't need to actually kill them. They're also poor at killing infantry in most cases. If you want to run three Juggernauts, you're in for a tough (but not impossible) time. But a main beatstick, with a Kodiak and a Devastator is pretty doable, especially if you have a Koldun Lord to help you run. I don't have any tournament experience, but I can tell you if you want warjacks to work then you should have a good plan for them, one that doesn't involve feeding them each 3 focus a turn :P

[Frege]

I think at 35 points you really need to build your army around those jacks to be effective. you are easily looking at 20-25 points in jacks. You can either fit some infantry in after that and be very limited on support or visa versa.

At 50 points it becomes a lot more doable. I think most people tend to use 1-2 because our infantry is so good. I also find that after my second jack I am not sure what the third will add that the first two dont already do.

[SuperTheBoss]

Like in any list, you need to make sure you have something to deal with multiple threats well. If you're taking a lot of 'jacks, you need to either make sure your 'jacks can handle all of those things, or make sure your 'jacks are cheap enough to take other stuff to handle what your 'jacks don't. At 35 pts. That can be kind of tough. You need something to kill their 'jacks, you need something to kill their infantry, you need something to kill annoying solos, and you need something that's going to win the game for you. Obviously, games don't usually end as planned, but if you can't come up with some theoretical situations where you win with your list, you're probably in for a tough time. Obviously some models can handle a few of these situations pretty well, and some can handle one better than others. I like a juggernaut, a devestator and a destroyer as 3 jacks because you have something to kill heavies, you have something to kill infantry and you have something that can lob bombards at support pieces and such. The destroyer can be marshaled easily, which helps with focus, and the devestator usually does just fine with 1 or maybe 2 focus, leaving your juggernaut as the only jack that needs a lot. And assuming you do bring a Koldun lord for the destroyer, that's just 21-22 points depending on 'jack points (24 with the old witch) which leaves you with 13-14 (11) points for other stuff in your list to round things out. It's not going to be the absolute strongest list you could take for a tournament, but copy-pasting other people's tournament winning lists is no fun anyway. Other good options if you are bringing 3 jacks include kodiak because it can do some stuff for free and has pathfinder, and marauder because you have other 'jacks to do everything it can't and slamming stuff can be really useful in scenarios. Obviously the big 3 (Spriggan, Beast-09 and Behemoth) are still great 'jacks, but they're expensive and not terribly focus efficient, which means you're probably going to want only one of them if you take them at all with 3 jacks and make the other two cheap and specialized. (berserker, marauder, etc.)

[OMM_Lukav]

Once they come out, I think a Karchev list with 1 Spriggan an 2 Demolishers could be a seriously annoying list to deal with. Instead of towing them, Sidearms them! That could give Karchev Def 15 with ARM 25 and 21 protection. Its slow, but I think it could work. Plus when you are ready to unleash hell, you don't have to worry about Karchev mooning anyone.

[quindraco]

Can you give me an example of a tournament winning army build, any point total, that includes at least 3 heavy warjacks?

I know this is an old question that's been hashed over a million times, but I just want to ask it again to see if anything's changed in the last 4 years that I'm not picking up in my research. The most common type of event winning list seems to basically be power units and solos with one warjack so as not to waste the bonus points from the warcaster. I'm wondering, essentially, has anything strategically changed to make anything else viable?

In theory, this is 50:
pVlad
Conquest
Conquest
Valachev&Aiyana&Holt
Max Mechaniks x3
Saxon Orrick

I did that really quickly; it's entirely plausible you ought to drop a unit of mechaniks for eEiryss or Gorman and a War Dog, I dunno. Conquest is the only thing that's come out recently that's potentially relevant to your question, since Harkevich certainly can't cut it as a competitive jack caster, and the list above is about as good as he's ever going to get, so it might be worth trying. I don't think Conquest is good enough, but I could easily be wrong. The real benefit to the above is that he can't be kicked out of a zone or off of an objective; once pVlad gets the pair of them there (and they can run 16" turn 1 with pathfinder, so I guarantee it won't be impossible) they'll stay there until they die, and that many mechaniks will keep them alive (Saxon is to ensure they can keep up if the colossals need to enter rough terrain). V&A&H let you swing at Menoth jacks and incorporeal, and help Conquest box an enemy Colossal in one turn if he has to. If that's not good enough - and I personally doubt very much that it is - then we haven't got anything else new to offer.

[sourclams]

I think this is at least slightly better:

pButcher
Conquestx2
Kayazy+UA
Dog
min. Mechanics+UA
Eiryss

Alternatively
pButcher or pVlad
Conquest
Spriggan
Kayazy+UA
Dog
Eirys
mechanics+UA
Valachev+A&H
Mortar

At least here you have a viable infantry screen to keep swarms or tarpits away for min. 1 turn and Kayazy are potent in their own right with either Vlad or Butch.

[Havock]

Who, I might add, will possibly straight up kill your caster with Backlash if they can get to Conquest, because he'll stick around for the full unit to hit him

To be fair though, that is one of the units who will die to the suppressive fire templates

[Mercykiller]

Nope. Not with their UA. In fact they're a great "Conquest predator".

[rivenwyrm]

To be fair though, that is one of the units who will die to the suppressive fire templates

In fact, they are quite unlikely to die to Conquest at all unless he crits them, because with their UA they're immune to blast damage and they're DEF 16 against ranged attacks, so he needs a 12 to even hit them at all (assuming no aim bonus).

[Havock]

Nope. Not with their UA. In fact they're a great "Conquest predator".

Conquests's suppressive fire templates are blast?

[Mercykiller]

Yup

10chars

[Havock]

Yup

10chars

Well, rifle corps it is then. Good thing they can hide behind the Colossal

[TarlSS]

Is three jacks the most optimal at any time? Probably not. Let's ask a more relevant system question- is it possible to spend the majority of your points on jacks in your army and win?
Yes.
You can buy 3 juggernauts for 21 pts, or 3 kodiaks for 24. A Spriggan+ Behemoth, a standard combo, is 23. With Conquest + Behemoth, things might get even more crazy. So.

[John of Arc]

Yah, if you love warjacks then Conquest is probably right up your alley. Two warjacks taped together with reach and pathfinder built in, and only requires the focus load of a single jack. You can easily run a second jack next to him unless you're super tight for focus.

[Grizwald]

Yes you can do it. I run as many as 5-8 Warjacks in a 50 point jack heavy list. It's not easy but it can be done.

[Madhiggins]

karchev all jack lists are so strong that i actually feel bad using them. his spell unearthly rage is more powerful than some casters' feats. a khador jack under the spell takes about 3 attacks to kill most other heavies in the game, and one Rain of Death is enough to wipe out the bulk of most infantry squads. i've never had trouble winning with khador jack armies, and heck i even take a good quarter points of something else so at least my opponent can kill some stuff.

[ScottEBJJ]

In theory, this is 50:
pVlad
Conquest
Conquest
Valachev&Aiyana&Holt
Max Mechaniks x3
Saxon Orrick

I did that really quickly; it's entirely plausible you ought to drop a unit of mechaniks for eEiryss or Gorman and a War Dog, I dunno. Conquest is the only thing that's come out recently that's potentially relevant to your question, since Harkevich certainly can't cut it as a competitive jack caster, and the list above is about as good as he's ever going to get, so it might be worth trying. I don't think Conquest is good enough, but I could easily be wrong. The real benefit to the above is that he can't be kicked out of a zone or off of an objective; once pVlad gets the pair of them there (and they can run 16" turn 1 with pathfinder, so I guarantee it won't be impossible) they'll stay there until they die, and that many mechaniks will keep them alive (Saxon is to ensure they can keep up if the colossals need to enter rough terrain). V&A&H let you swing at Menoth jacks and incorporeal, and help Conquest box an enemy Colossal in one turn if he has to. If that's not good enough - and I personally doubt very much that it is - then we haven't got anything else new to offer.

Why is Hark being casually written off? I firmly believe that he us a very valid 3rd list caster, and is certainly going to have his success running three or more jacks. He grants the mobility you need, has a feat that both help his focus burden and allows him to force engagement, and he has just enough focus to handle his stable.

[quindraco]

Why is Hark being casually written off? I firmly believe that he us a very valid 3rd list caster, and is certainly going to have his success running three or more jacks. He grants the mobility you need, has a feat that both help his focus burden and allows him to force engagement, and he has just enough focus to handle his stable.

6 focus isn't nearly enough for 3 jacks, especially since he has so much other stuff to pay for, and the stuff he does have to offer is so underwhelming that it's quite difficult for him to cut it. A jack heavy list under pVlad will outperform one under Harkevich, and even pVlad can't really handle running 3 jacks.

[MathPasta]

His spell list is essentially puny:

Escort and Fortune. Everything else is a trap spell.

[Esper]

One of the keys to running three jacks is to pick jacks that don't need 3 focus every turn. Under Vlad1, I usually use a Spriggan, Drago, and a Devastator. Drago almost never needs focus. The Devastator needs only 1 to run on most turns. On Vlad's feat turn, the Devastator charges for free, and doesn't really need more than one to boost damage on the ROD attack, if you're basing a heavy. The Spriggan is usually the only jack that needs a load of focus to be effective.

I use a similar list when I run three jacks with Irusk2, but replace Drago with a Destroyer as an FFE target. Energizer gets abused as much as possible to both get an aim bonus for the Destroyer, and to set up the perfect bulldoze-charge lanes for the Devastator and Spriggan.

[ScottEBJJ]

6 focus isn't nearly enough for 3 jacks, especially since he has so much other stuff to pay for, and the stuff he does have to offer is so underwhelming that it's quite difficult for him to cut it. A jack heavy list under pVlad will outperform one under Harkevich, and even pVlad can't really handle running 3 jacks.

I really disagree.

For starters I don't find Focus 6 that strict of a limitation. There are few turns where you need to fuel up more then two jacks. Vlad my have more focus, but his non-feat SPD buff/Pathfinder granter is a 2 cost spell. The second he has to cast that he now has less or equal to the amount of focus to allocate, though it does give a free charge. He can not have every afford to, both due to Focus cost and positioning, spread that spell around.

I have played and tested both casters with larger battle-groups. I even played pVlad with 3 jacks at Gencon's Masters, winning the game I used them in. Of the two I've found Hark to be the more consistent on a turn by turn basis. pVlad can have a game winning feat turn, but better players are savvy enough to deny you that and will force you to play small ball. Then the limitations of Boundless Charge start to come into play as opponents can really start to use rough terrain to frustrate you. Hark does not have a game ending turn in him, but turn by turn the universal SPD buff and Pathfinder allow him to assert himself more ably, particularly against the more savvy of opponents.

Despite that neither of the two have ever given what I'd call an unacceptable performance, And given that I only play tournament prep or tournament games, and generally only play against experience players, that should give some indication as to what I see as acceptable.

His spell list is essentially puny:

Escort and Fortune. Everything else is a trap spell.

Since all he is being used for is to allocate focus, I don't find that to be a problem. No one ever said he was inspired, but a smaller real spell list isn't damning to essentially a focus battery with a few good passives or near passives.

[x3tsniper]

+1 to scott here. Harkevich has been one of my casters at tournaments since around his release. The demolisher and conquest just made his standard of living that much higher. I won't say he is amazing, but he offers consistency throughout the game, with a very strong feat. I tend to ignore the shot it gives you, as something important. It is more of the free charge and +3 armor. Behemoth and Conquest leading the front line at arm 24/23 respectively, or a Demolisher and Behemoth gives Harkevich better options in scenarios than he had prior.

Sometimes you can afford to cast Broadsides, and sometimes you trick yourself into thinking it's a good idea. It is one thing I need more practice with. The whole trying to get critical devastates, hasn't helped me at all in this regard. >.>

[Kurb]

6 focus isn't nearly enough for 3 jacks, especially since he has so much other stuff to pay for, and the stuff he does have to offer is so underwhelming that it's quite difficult for him to cut it. A jack heavy list under pVlad will outperform one under Harkevich, and even pVlad can't really handle running 3 jacks.

Sure he can.
It just takes some out of the box thinking.
You might not win GenCon but you can win in tourneys with such.
I understand out of the box thinking is frowned upon lately around these parts.
So please be gentle as everyone tells me I am a newb and dont know what I am talking about.

[MathPasta]

Sure he can.
It just takes some out of the box thinking.

What does that mean? This isn't freaking D&D where the players come up with some ludacrist plan to deliver a hundred tons of alchemist fire into the base of the big bad.