Ranged or Melee Armies

[GunSeraph06]

I used to play almost exclusively ranged armies (I am former Cygnar MK I player, sue me), and I've always been a huge fan of Retribution's Stormfall Archers, Dawnguard Invictors, Mage Hunter Strike Forces, and our other ranged assets. I was ecstatic when I saw the Arcantrik Force Generator was a ranged power house that, as a bonus, helped our ranged warjacks out as well.

However, with me forcing myself to try eVyro's theme force, I'm starting to see how powerful melee-only options are. I used to avoid Sentinels, Halbadiers, and Griffons like the plague because I felt they were inferior to ranged-only or ranged-and-melee balanced units, solos, and warjacks.

I can honestly say I've never used pVyros in a game because he didn't have a ranged weapon. I initially decided to try eVyros out because they put a ROF 2 gun on him, which in my mind at the time, made him a viable option.

I'd wonder why, with my shooty armies, I'd get crushed by stealthy/melee forces, and I'd always come up with the same answer: when in doubt, add more guns.

After playing eVyros's theme force, and being constrained to take Sentinels to advance the tier, I see now how narrow-minded I was. I used to hate being out-shot by Legion's eLylyth because shooting was what I was good at. Now, I see that a good army has a balance of good melee, ranged, and a sprinking of magic attacks to be successful.

Anyone else had this realization and suddenly facepalmed themselves once seeing how freakin' devestating Sentinels on the charge are?

[Syfer22]

I'm the opposite. Playing Cryx, I was consigned mostly to melee-heavy armies, and now I'm getting used to having guns.

Playing a mixed arms army, however, sometimes I find my melee portion of my army getting whittled down super fast. When playing Cryx I'd run multiple melee units to avoid just that, so it's a different experience for me trying to work in guns.

[GunSeraph06]

Ah, we should compare notes then...are you a Ret player now?

Additionally, Cryx Bane Spam was another problem for my ranged forces...I'm hoping to be able to have a chance against them now...

[Syfer22]

Ah, we should compare notes then...are you a Ret player now?

Additionally, Cryx Bane Spam was another problem for my ranged forces...I'm hoping to be able to have a chance against them now...

I've been on a Ret playing spree for a while; slowly but surely getting my forces painted and assembled, but borrowing heavily from Demeritus in the meantime (thanks, buddy!).

Cryx Bane Spam can definitely be problematic due to Tartarus. Against them, however, attrition is the name of the game. Sentinels are a decent choice, but not the first choice I'd run against them. Why? Because Banes are still infantry, and hitting them with most conventional weaponry will dispatch them -- Sentinels are overkill, and getting into a slugfest with Banes feels like a poor trade for me. Not that they aren't comparable in points, they are, but odds are they will be much more numerous than your (most likely) single unit of Sentinels. Halberdiers I'd probably run against them in a vacuum.

However, there are things you can do to mitigate them, but it's highly dependent on the engagement and positioning. If you bait them into a swirling melee and then walk up a Phoenix and Combust, that can deal with a lot of them. Rahn with Polarity Shield and Kaelyssa with her feat will do the trick as well.

One other thing to keep in mind -- Demeritus Force Hammered Tartarus over some Bane Knights, killing them with the collateral damage. Vengeance was denied because it was collateral that killed them instead of an enemy attack. Little things like that will give you an edge over them.

Honestly, though, I mostly got bored of playing Cryx. Not that it isn't fun and all, but I've been playing them straight for years now, and TBH, I sort of feel like the army is a bit one-dimensional. Picking up Ret as a second faction, I find that there are many ways to play the army because I have access to so many different things that are, quite frankly, excellent. I can look at almost any infantry unit in the faction (almost) and not feel bad for wanting to take them/play them. I'm also playing much more 'jack heavy than I did with my Cryx; playing Cryx I'd usually take MAYBE one heavy, and some bone chickens.

Vyre 'jacks rock. Period.

[MMMMK]

Sentinels don't counter banes very well, especially if the Thrall's UA and Tartarus are present... don't forget that the banes are Tough with the UA. If you can remove Tartarus before charging with your Sentinels then you should be able to outgrind them. Tartarus is also difficult to kill, of course, but 2 MHAs can kill him semi-reliably or (the Fane Knight or Narn or something). Kaelyssa is also pretty great in this match-up because she ignores stealth with her gun and with her spells, making the killing of Tart. much easier.

[GunSeraph06]

yeah I hate Tarter Sauce, he is an evil, evil UA

[Mogu]

After being forced to drop my MHSF +UA due to popular demand (casterkill cries), I found myself playing pVyros a lot.
At first it was difficult to figure out how to play without a "reliable" feat. Because his feat is fairly conditional as opposed to say Ravyn's.
I found that I needed hard hitters to really get the best out of Vyros's feat, it was here that the sentinels came in.
They can kill anything, given the sentinels aren't dead. Infantry, warjacks, casters. My UA officer has nearly killed warcasters and warlocks by himself. At mat 8 you're looking at a fairly accurate sword to the skull.
Our Halberdiers are amazing on minifeat charge turns. Becoming a ludicrous mat 8 with Pow 14+3d6 ~ averaging around Pow 24-25 and on top of that, total threat of 11".

A little more on pVyros, I find that his feat turn allows you to use Vyros very agressively because he has so much free focus floating around on the board. Having a mat 10 (flank) PS 14 pseudo weapon master (flank) running at a warjack is pretty scary..
With extreme confidence, I can say Vyros has more warjack and warbeast kills than any single model in my army and a far greater late game presence than most casters I face.
(Hard to run away from a spd 7 def 15 arm 24 elf)
Vyros IMO has a very strong spell list. With the ability to shut down shooting with proper placement, arm buff and a incredible battlegroup spd buff, Vyros can easily attrition players to death.
With extreme confidence, I can say Vyros has more warjack and warbeast kills than any single model in my army and a far greater late game presence than most casters I face.
(Hard to run away from a spd 7 def 15 arm 24 elf)
Love the bugger to death. Even more excited for eVyros.

[MMMMK]

yeah I hate Tarter Sauce, he is an evil, evil UA

He's a solo, actually, which is pretty important for a few of his abilities.

[GunSeraph06]

you know what I meant

[Syfer22]

you know what I meant

He's more like Bane tax than anything else.

But hey, you know the old saying -- There are only two constants in life: Death and taxes.

Tartarus is both.

[Barakiel]

I've had good success countering Banes in my Rahn list. Sentinels alone aren't a great counter, but if you can use Rahn's Feat turn chain blast and Phoenix Combution to help clear out the tighter bane concentrations, then Sentinels do a great job cleaning up the remainder (especially with Polarity Shield to help make sure the Sentinels fight on their own terms.) This can also clear a nice charge lane to Tartarus if you have an Assassin or two waiting on the sidelines.

On the broader topic of Retribution ranged versus melee, I can certainly empathize with the original poster. Starting with Ravyn and Ossyan, and seeing all the shooting tricks they had to offer, I found myself very surprised at the potency of my melee heavy Rahn and eVyros lists (I've got three games under my belt now with eVyros, and I love how different he is from any other Ret caster.) I think the quick, aggressive melee options of an eVyros list have really filled a gap in the Ret warcaster pantheon.

[joelker41]

Sentinels are actually good vs Banes from my experience. Just only let them kill a few (without tartarus getting an attack) and vengeance lets you swing once to clear the front row, then if they rolled tough they are knocked down, then charge second row on their activation.

That's how I usually handle it.

[Murkhadh]

Sentinels are actually a fantastic counter to banes rahn or not as Joelker said, setup the typical vengeance fan formation, let the banes have the front few and vengeance and counter charge.

[Syfer22]

Sentinels are actually a fantastic counter to banes rahn or not as Joelker said, setup the typical vengeance fan formation, let the banes have the front few and vengeance and counter charge.

I suppose that tactic mostly doesn't work as well around my area -- I've been using Bane Knights and using that trick for years now. I guess it works out if the Cryxian players only use Bane Thralls, though.

[Murkhadh]

I suppose that tactic mostly doesn't work as well around my area -- I've been using Bane Knights and using that trick for years now. I guess it works out if the Cryxian players only use Bane Thralls, though.

So if it works for your vengeance unit, why wouldn't it work for rets.

[Murkhadh]

@ The OP

Ret has amazing units in general, even the riflemen don't totally suck, its just that the rest of our stuff is so much better.

I really only go mostly ranged with Ravyn, with the rest of our casters a good mix is usually best.

Evyros wants fast melee, jacks and sentinels and halbs, he could care less about shooting.

[GunSeraph06]

How do you think eVyros's tier list would fare against eLylyth?

[Murkhadh]

How do you think eVyros's tier list would fare against eLylyth?

I started a good conversation on this very topic in another thread but in a nutshell. I think its going to be the best answer we have to her.

Check the list discussion thread for the evyross list I'm tossing around thread.

[GunSeraph06]

Already saw and made several comments, posted my version of the 50 point eVyros theme list...

And I think you're right, with Deflection and SPD 10 running destors, she is definitely going to have to deal with some horsies up in her grill...

[Syfer22]

So if it works for your vengeance unit, why wouldn't it work for rets.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying people in my area are used to it and play accordingly (i.e. They won't get baited by it as easily as you say anymore). =P

Despite that, in a Vengeance fight I would put the edge to the Bane Knights. Why? Because of Ghostly, allowing them to maneuver wherever they want more or less, and Tartarus, who not only allows them to hit more easily than the Sents do, but also can wade in and start creating reinforcements on the spot and allow them to out attrition the Sents. Furthermore, they out threat the Sents (unless the likes of Ossyan is involved), and they can go in deeper and maneuver to kill off the officer, especially since they ignore free strikes.

Mind you, this isn't an argument about which unit is better; I'm just saying why, from my experience, I wouldn't really want to send Sentinels after Banes as a first preference. The point of Banes is that they are an elite unit, and forcing them to trade with a cheaper unit is much more preferable since Banes will still fall to said cheaper unit.

Will Sents do the job? Yes, of course they will. If a Cryx player is used to using Bane Knights, then you will have a harder time luring him in with the Vengeance Bait tactic. It will work better against Thralls, barring tough rolls, though once the Officer is assassinated things become trickier.

[Syfer22]

Already saw and made several comments, posted my version of the 50 point eVyros theme list...

And I think you're right, with Deflection and SPD 10 running destors, she is definitely going to have to deal with some horsies up in her grill...

I can agree that the tier list may actually be a good answer. eLyll lists are great at infantry munching, but Deathstalker solos won't get Snap Fire since they won't auto-kill the Destors. Striders will have a tougher time killing anything, and because of the general toughness of the Destors, the heavies might have to end up directing fire at them instead. Destors may lack for hitting power, but they will chase down Striders, and you can leave the Legion heavies to your own and eVyros.

Of course, jamming Hyperion in their face backed by Discordia might give them some trouble too.

[Murkhadh]

I can agree that the tier list may actually be a good answer. eLyll lists are great at infantry munching, but Deathstalker solos won't get Snap Fire since they won't auto-kill the Destors. Striders will have a tougher time killing anything, and because of the general toughness of the Destors, the heavies might have to end up directing fire at them instead. Destors may lack for hitting power, but they will chase down Striders, and you can leave the Legion heavies to your own and eVyros.

Of course, jamming Hyperion in their face backed by Discordia might give them some trouble too.

The real trick to this is the feat, when they kill one destor, you move another into something that hasn't shot yet, now it has to melee, rinse repeat.

[Syfer22]

The real trick to this is the eat, when they kill one destor, you move another into something that hasn't shot yet, now it has to melee, rinse repeat.

Absolutely. One of the other strengths of the list is the maneuverability of the Striders, being able to run and gun. Destors outrun them, however, and Striders certainly don't ignore free strikes.

I've always loved the look of Destors (coolest looking cav in the game IMO), but between the price tag and their general cost versus efficiency, they ranked a little on the low side. eVyros might be the thing that gives me an excuse to buy some.

[Murkhadh]

Absolutely. One of the other strengths of the list is the maneuverability of the Striders, being able to run and gun. Destors outrun them, however, and Striders certainly don't ignore free strikes.

I've always loved the look of Destors (coolest looking cav in the game IMO), but between the price tag and their general cost versus efficiency, they ranked a little on the low side. eVyros might be the thing that gives me an excuse to buy some.

I'm not worried about striders I don't see them too much in elyl lists unless there is RF's. I think they are kinda dumb with her in the main list. Raptors by far outperform them.

[GunSeraph06]

Yeah I was gonna say, I'm more worried about Anny and her Raptor buddies, and eLyl's feat + Pin Cushion. I will definitely bring a soulless or two for the sentinels to prevent pin cushion on them...