Expanding "The Rayvn List"

[5-Cents]

So I've been a fan of Mastershake's Ravn list for a while now, I admit I haven't had a chance to play it properly, but the article is great and the list synergy is great. I've been brainstorming the most effective way to expand to 50 pts. My theory is

- Min Dawnguard Destors 7
Destors work because they have pretty good shooting with gunfighter, dual shot, and ride-by-attacks (not at the same time of course) and they have reach, but only only the charge, after the charge their melee goes back to .5, allowing the ranged units to pour fire onto the target if necessary. Also worth noting is that with there armor they are basically immune to the SFA blasts, so carpet bombing while they're engaged is no problem.

-Narn 3
Narn has sprint which is another disengage method to make way for shooting, and 2 weapon master swords to get the kills with.

-Fane Knight 5
A tremendous beatstick who can hold objectives, kill stuff and disengage or take blast damage when needed.

I didn't see this proposed in the old thread, so I thought I'd put it forward for consideration.

[Murkhadh]

NYSS HUNTERS!!!!

Mastershake gave me the idea, and man am I glad I bought them to try it, I love them with Ravyn, they don't need much support from ravyn and having two units that ignore a lot of stuff makes opponents crazy.

They are also good at laying down the hurt in melee.

Destors aren't so great with her, I tried to make them work since I spent the 100 bucks on them but it just doesn't, you wont' get to use dual shot with range 10 and unyeilding on a model that doesn't have permanent reach is dumb.

[Rampaging Elk]

I think I may be the only person who does this, but I regularly bring my AFG with Ravyn and love it with her nearly every time. For me, it basically turns into a self-sustained Momentum, AOE or Rapid Fire shot every turn (nearly always hitting) that my opponent can't really do anything to stop. I even have it in some 35 or 25 point lists with her. Others will say there are better things to take, but it has consistently served me well.

[Murkhadh]

I think I may be the only person who does this, but I regularly bring my AFG with Ravyn and love it with her nearly every time. For me, it basically turns into a self-sustained Momentum, AOE or Rapid Fire shot every turn (nearly always hitting) that my opponent can't really do anything to stop. I even have it in some 35 or 25 point lists with her. Others will say there are better things to take, but it has consistently served me well.

I did this for a long time before I tried the Nyss

Some games it did really really well for me. Some games it did nothing. I really wanted to like the AFG but the Nyss outperform it every time for me now. the games you need it to help kill infantry swams and it rolls a 1 for rapid fire hurt, other games you don't have infantry swams and everything is low defense and has a way to get pathfinder, it doesn't do much.

The Nyss have been money every game for me way more consistent then the AFG.

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the battle engines that are truly good have some way to boost. So for us thats only with Ossyan and only one one turn. So for me its pretty much the ones that have some way to boost, then our's then whatever other ones there are, then lastly the wraith engine, that thing is just bad.

[Rampaging Elk]

I did this for a long time before I tried the Nyss

Some games it did really really well for me. Some games it did nothing. I really wanted to like the AFG but the Nyss outperform it every time for me now. the games you need it to help kill infantry swams and it rolls a 1 for rapid fire hurt, other games you don't have infantry swams and everything is low defense and has a way to get pathfinder, it doesn't do much.

The Nyss have been money every game for me way more consistent then the AFG.

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the battle engines that are truly good have some way to boost. So for us thats only with Ossyan and only one one turn. So for me its pretty much the ones that have some way to boost, then our's then whatever other ones there are, then lastly the wraith engine, that thing is just bad.

I'll have to try the Nyss out, but I still love the AFG. No boosting on damage and getting 2 shots on Rapid Fire as opposed to 4 is pretty lame, but I still find that it does quite a lot. Knocking down a jack so you can have line of sight to a naturally high armor caster or just shooting a caster itself are both two things it has done phenomenally well. Just last night it killed Krueger under the feat turn with 2 Rapid Fire shots after Ravyn boosted a shot into him. Even without her feat turn, shooting at RAT 9 gives you a decent chance to hit most casters, and POW 14 is enough to do some damage most of the time.

[Murkhadh]

I'll have to try the Nyss out, but I still love the AFG. No boosting on damage and getting 2 shots on Rapid Fire as opposed to 4 is pretty lame, but I still find that it does quite a lot. Knocking down a jack so you can have line of sight to a naturally high armor caster or just shooting a caster itself are both two things it has done phenomenally well. Just last night it killed Krueger under the feat turn with 2 Rapid Fire shots after Ravyn boosted a shot into him. Even without her feat turn, shooting at RAT 9 gives you a decent chance to hit most casters, and POW 14 is enough to do some damage most of the time.

I don't disagree with anything you just said, but like the Nyss get to make 10 attacks and can CRA for similar accuracy. For every game the AFG was awesome for me, I have another that it was either only okay or did nothing.

[magi]

You can always find something for the AFG to do with such a long range, though. Not necessarily the Nyss. That, and they're a character unit which makes steamroller list building somewhat difficult, especially when you are considering them as part of your reinforcements.

[Murkhadh]

You can always find something for the AFG to do with such a long range, though. Not necessarily the Nyss. That, and they're a character unit which makes steamroller list building somewhat difficult, especially when you are considering them as part of your reinforcements.

You can always find something for the nyss to do as well. They threat. 19 inches. Things will be in range every turn after the first. And the Nyss are so cool that id rather have them every time I play a list rather than only on rf scenarios. My current fav rfs with ravyn are halbs with a souless. They wreck things and do a good job holding points

[Mastershake]

You can always find something for the AFG to do with such a long range, though. Not necessarily the Nyss. That, and they're a character unit which makes steamroller list building somewhat difficult, especially when you are considering them as part of your reinforcements.

Nyss threat 19", AFG threats 18"...am I missing something there? Also there really aren't many Ret casters who have anything for the Nyss (Snipe), so giving them to a caster who has a buff in the primary and who they work well with really should be taking priority over one of your casters having some useful reinforcements or a unit wandering around that they have little for.

[magi]

Nyss threat 19", AFG threats 18"...am I missing something there? Also there really aren't many Ret casters who have anything for the Nyss (Snipe), so giving them to a caster who has a buff in the primary and who they work well with really should be taking priority over one of your casters having some useful reinforcements or a unit wandering around that they have little for.

I was referring to range, not total threat; it's more likely that you will be able to get the aiming bonus with the AFG. In addition, it's easier to maneuver a single model into a position to make an attack against another model than it is to maneuver 6/10 (especially if you're trying to prevent them from becoming AOE targets); the base size of the AFG does reduce this advantage, however. Also, the AFG has a way to deal with stealth models at range, which the Nyss do not (other than sword to mouth :P ).

It's true that our other casters do not have much in the way of spells that can help the Nyss (Ossyan is a good exception, however), but the great thing about the Nyss is that they are generally self sufficient and don't require support (which makes them good reinforcements). Besides, how often are you going to be using Snipe on the Nyss versus your faction units? As often as you'd use it on the AFG?

It's true that the Nyss are more versatile than the AFG, but that doesn't mean that the AFG should not be considered.

[joelker41]

I had success with double manticore for covering fire spam. Part of me would really like a dedicated melee unit like Halbs.

I run my Nyss religiously with Rahn so Ravyn normally doesn't get them.

[Mastershake]

I was referring to range, not total threat; it's more likely that you will be able to get the aiming bonus with the AFG. In addition, it's easier to maneuver a single model into a position to make an attack against another model than it is to maneuver 6/10 (especially if you're trying to prevent them from becoming AOE targets); the base size of the AFG does reduce this advantage, however. Also, the AFG has a way to deal with stealth models at range, which the Nyss do not (other than sword to mouth :P ).

It's true that our other casters do not have much in the way of spells that can help the Nyss (Ossyan is a good exception, however), but the great thing about the Nyss is that they are generally self sufficient and don't require support (which makes them good reinforcements). Besides, how often are you going to be using Snipe on the Nyss versus your faction units? As often as you'd use it on the AFG?

It's true that the Nyss are more versatile than the AFG, but that doesn't mean that the AFG should not be considered.

The way the AFG can deal with Stealth is something the list already posesses in quantity (carpet bombing) and huge bases have been fairly unwieldly in practice. Also the Nyss usually get Snipe first turn, they're naturally good targets since a 23" threat range gets them to the point where if you're going second they can generally make attacks alongside the MHSF and Stormfalls if the enemey is running models. If you get first turn, they're a perfect target since you usually want to feat turn 2, so having it on a faction unit usually means not hot-swapping because they'll lose the feat benefit if they activate first and the Nyss don't care about the feat.

Again reinforcements is nice, but your average tournament you'll see them used once in one list, maybe twice, so why would you field something as reinforcements if you can get real mileage in a main list? As much as I like Nyss as a reinforcing unit, if I've got a real purpose for them, they're going main list.

[Gremlingsp]

I've been wanting to give Dahlia a try as well. That would give you 2 pretty decent sprays.

[5-Cents]

I hadn't thought of the Nyss Hunters, but they seem like they would be great in the list. Another combined arms unit, of course it's another unit that's paper to AOEs. But they seem better than Destors, so now my working list would probably be

Min Nyss Hunters
Narn
Fane Knight

If Narn proves unreliable I would probably switch home for the full unit of Nyss, that may be the better option anyway...

[Jestor]

For every game the AFG was awesome for me, I have another that it was either only okay or did nothing.

For every game the Nyss Hunters are awesome for me I have another where my opponent knew they were a huge threat and wandered an AOE in to them a half dozen times

Both selections are good and I think the Nyss generally out rank the AFG. The problem becomes the character restricted format. Since you can only take the Nyss in one list I generally take them in a non-Rayven list. I think a lot depends on play style but I usually take MHSF with her as well as Stormfall and find another squishy shooting unit to be overkill.

[Murkhadh]

For every game the Nyss Hunters are awesome for me I have another where my opponent knew they were a huge threat and wandered an AOE in to them a half dozen times

Both selections are good and I think the Nyss generally out rank the AFG. The problem becomes the character restricted format. Since you can only take the Nyss in one list I generally take them in a non-Rayven list. I think a lot depends on play style but I usually take MHSF with her as well as Stormfall and find another squishy shooting unit to be overkill.

Your either supposed to have them spaced so aoes only kill 1 or 2 or protect them with Discordia, you shouldn't be losing much of anything in a Ravyn list to Blast damage.

[Jestor]

Your either supposed to have them spaced so aoes only kill 1 or 2 or protect them with Discordia, you shouldn't be losing much of anything in a Ravyn list to Blast damage.

How does a Rayvn list differ from any other list when it comes to blast damage?

I play in a "Kayazy Heavy" meta so most good players take appropriate actions to take out high def low arm troops.

[Murkhadh]

How does a Rayvn list differ from any other list when it comes to blast damage?

I play in a "Kayazy Heavy" meta so most good players take appropriate actions to take out high def low arm troops.

Because you should have Discordia with Ravyn.

[Lord Sessadore]

Because you should have Discordia with Ravyn.

Even then, though, you can't keep your 11 mage hunters, 10 nyss hunters, and 8 stormfall archers all safe from blast damage if your opponent has significant AOE presence. Even if you spread the unprotected ones around, some are going to get caught by scatters.

[Murkhadh]

Even then, though, you can't keep your 11 mage hunters, 10 nyss hunters, and 8 stormfall archers all safe from blast damage if your opponent has significant AOE presence. Even if you spread the unprotected ones around, some are going to get caught by scatters.

I can keep 10 mhsf and 8 stormfalls protected easily, I could probably fit some nyss, my point was, between all of that and proper spacing you shouldn't be taking significant losses to blast dmg.

[Murkhadh]

double post

[rwould]

Surely all of that limited to surrounding Discordia leaves you tactically very restricted to wherever Discordia is? I assume you mean that you space out some (probably MHSF) and then cover Stormfalls with Discordia, although even then that would be quite limiting positioning wise.

[Murkhadh]

Surely all of that limited to surrounding Discordia leaves you tactically very restricted to wherever Discordia is? I assume you mean that you space out some (probably MHSF) and then cover Stormfalls with Discordia, although even then that would be quite limiting positioning wise.

Its within 3, not completely within 3 you can fit all of the mhsf in front of disco quite easily with room to spare. to the sides and behind

[rwould]

No, I have recently registered. But if your strategy is all about surrounding Discordia with those then you are limiting yourself positioning wise meaning you may struggle somewhat on scenario. It's all situational based upon what forces you are up against, what scenario you are playing, and where your opponents forces are located but a blanket statement as you imply that 'all you need is Discordia and camp around him' is blatantly misleading as to how effective it is.

[Murkhadh]

No, I have recently registered. But if your strategy is all about surrounding Discordia with those then you are limiting yourself positioning wise meaning you may struggle somewhat on scenario. It's all situational based upon what forces you are up against, what scenario you are playing, and where your opponents forces are located but a blanket statement as you imply that 'all you need is Discordia and camp around him' is blatantly misleading as to how effective it is.

This has been discussed to death on this forum, its a common strategy. It works, very effectively.

If you really want to make it difficult for them, slap a veil of mists in front of the disco and now they can't get LOS to him so the entire cluster is immune to most ranged attacks.

[Jestor]

This has been discussed to death on this forum, its a common strategy. It works, very effectively.

If you really want to make it difficult for them, slap a veil of mists in front of the disco and now they can't get LOS to him so the entire cluster is immune to most ranged attacks.

Are you really advocating putting 35 points on the board in this formation and leaving them that way?

[Murkhadh]

Are you really advocating putting 35 points on the board in this formation and leaving them that way?

Are you really seeing some sort of problem with it?

If my opponent has a ton of blast damage, yes why not, better than having things die.

And thats not exactly how I would arrange them but its not too terribly far off, The gist of its there, get things under the aura.

And you don't leave them that way all game, you do until you destroy whatever has the blast damage.

[Jestor]

I will admit I have not tried this tactic yet. We always play steamroller scenario and I hate to see that much stuff not jamming a zone. It just seems like a waste to me really. You have a 10 point model sitting there doing nothing but protecting other models. I will have to give it a try and see how it works out. I assume you snipe the MHSF, hand out two focus to Disco every turn and run him imprinted around the field while stuff shoots?

The heavy AOE stuff I see a lot is usually Behemoth backed up by a mortar or the rocket guys. Some days I will see Menoth and their burning pie plates. How do you counter long ranged bombards on Disco himself while Sheildwalled troops march up the feild in front of what ever is bombarding?

[Rampaging Elk]

I will admit I have not tried this tactic yet. We always play steamroller scenario and I hate to see that much stuff not jamming a zone. It just seems like a waste to me really. You have a 10 point model sitting there doing nothing but protecting other models. I will have to give it a try and see how it works out. I assume you snipe the MHSF, hand out two focus to Disco every turn and run him imprinted around the field while stuff shoots?

The heavy AOE stuff I see a lot is usually Behemoth backed up by a mortar or the rocket guys. Some days I will see Menoth and their burning pie plates. How do you counter long ranged bombards on Disco himself while Sheildwalled troops march up the feild in front of what ever is bombarding?

Sheildwall troops vs. SFA autofire + Snipe. Pick your winner. My money is on the SFA's.

I recently had a game vs. Khador where I had my MHSF surround Discordia in practically the exact formation in that picture. It WORKS. It's not going to be perfect against everything, but there are some situations where rolling up into a Iosan/Nyss ball with a chocolaty Discordia center is legitimately a great strategy for a turn or two.

Edit: also, most jacks that aren't designed like a Defender or Ravagore don't really do much for those first few turns. Yes, you have 10 points sitting there doing nothing but protecting other units for 2 turns. Then it gets in melee with an Arcanist boost and wrecks face. Or two-handed throws. Or sprays. Or does normal jack things. It's better that your 10 points JUST protects half your army for two turns until it can get in range than do something like a Manticore or Pheonix would. That is to say, little to nothing productive. Also, you don't need to run every turn. Give it an Arcanist Power Boost so it can just move and imprint while you pass Snipe around.

[Murkhadh]

I will admit I have not tried this tactic yet. We always play steamroller scenario and I hate to see that much stuff not jamming a zone. It just seems like a waste to me really. You have a 10 point model sitting there doing nothing but protecting other models. I will have to give it a try and see how it works out. I assume you snipe the MHSF, hand out two focus to Disco every turn and run him imprinted around the field while stuff shoots?

The heavy AOE stuff I see a lot is usually Behemoth backed up by a mortar or the rocket guys. Some days I will see Menoth and their burning pie plates. How do you counter long ranged bombards on Disco himself while Sheildwalled troops march up the feild in front of what ever is bombarding?

In one sentence your complaining you lose things to blast damage, in the next your saying you haven't tried an easy solution.

We play always play a scenario too. A general rule with most gun lines is your not necessarily going to win by scenario, you just make sure you don't lose to the scenario, setup shop in the zone they have to control to score and blast them from that spot.

the long range bombards hitting the diso early in the game, I have the disco itself in this setup out of his range on turn 1, you out threat them with ret, in later turns slap a veil of mists in front of disco so if they want to shoot him, they have to move or maybe you put him in the veil for the defense, or even better get disco some cover. It all depends on what the opponent is shooting him with. Even in the worst case, the disco will be arm 20 with a force field, it can take a few hits.

the khador stuff is rat 1 -4 and the menoth stuff is also low rat

I don't always hand out two focus to the disco, it depends on what im doing, I use swift hunter from the feat to shuffle everyone around the only thing I do for certain every game is give disco 2 focus first turn to imprint and run. After that I'm often somewhere I can sit and shoot for a turn or two.

What my opponent does, dictates what happens next. An 18 arm jack just stepped into charge range of the mhsf? they are charging next turn etc.

[rwould]

Opponent spreads out with infantry opposing that, or gets something in with a spray (although admittedly not that many sprays will have the effective range to get in on it) and they are laughing. With one spaced infantry unit they could be tying up 3 times the opposing value.

If the opponent just moves masses up into range tightly packed you'll beat him. but frankly you'll probably beat him anyway if he does that.

[Mastershake]

Opponent spreads out with infantry opposing that, or gets something in with a spray (although admittedly not that many sprays will have the effective range to get in on it) and they are laughing. With one spaced infantry unit they could be tying up 3 times the opposing value.

If the opponent just moves masses up into range tightly packed you'll beat him. but frankly you'll probably beat him anyway if he does that.

I guess the assumption with this post (and a few others previous) is that whoever the player with Disco is, they are incapable of exercising judgement to determine threat ranges (and army with Snipe everywhere falling easy prey to sprays is frakly a joke) or pick out targets and also that the army apparently has a net damage every turn of zero.

I've used the formation a lot and usually when it happens the game ends in my favor. Your RNG on average is about 16" (not threat, RNG), so keeping targets from engaging you is easier than you think. Combine this with the fact that your army will kill things unless your dice were made with a voodoo curse in their creation myth, so you can do crazy things like, I don't know, kill the targets throwing AoEs (off the wall, but hear me out here) means you can actually control the field pretty well. Disco herself doesn't die easily even to dedicated fire since she's sporting ARM 20 and 32 health and you can only get rid of the imprint for the turn by completely killing her. So now you have an army that doesn't suffer blast damage and can't be directly hit outside of true sight or similar, out threats the enemy and lest we not forget ignores LoS along with a multitude of other buffs in addition to having some units with remarkably flexible ways to approach ranged combat.

You can put 35pts within 3" of a large base, and in some situations if you know how to manage threat ranges it can actually witn the game for you.

[FearLord]

Disco herself doesn't die easily even to dedicated fire since she's sporting ARM 20 and 32 health and you can only get rid of the imprint for the turn by completely killing her.

Has there been a ruling on this? The way I read it, you lose the ability as soon as the generator system goes down...

[Houston]

From Disco's card
"Imprint: Kinetic Field - During its activation, this model can use 1 focus point to use Kinetic Field. For one turn this model..."

"Field dependent - While its Field Generator system is crippled, this model loses Imprint:Kinetic Field..."

When damaged, Discordia specifically loses "Imprint: Kinetic Field" and not the kinetic field itself, furthermore, it is an effect that gives a specified duration without further caveats; I'd be very surprised if the loss of the Generator system also lost the Armor bonus. It does not hurt to ask though.

[BrotherOracle]

I firmly believe that shoot-y bricks like that should contain HG Rifles. They were meant to be the hard candy shell to your stormfall and discorda filled center.

[Fathoym]

The only thing HGR have going for them that something like Nyss or MHSF have is that they can CRA into melee. Apart from that they are worse in every way. No stealth, average def/arm means that even with the Imprint they're going down at range. They have slightly longer range, but to be honest that's only going to help in the first turn because after that you're close enough for it not to matter. They're also lower base RAT meaning you're less likely to take down infantry hordes through the game with them.

Now, if you're saying thematically-wise, then yeah, rifleman suit that role better cause it looks cooler on the battlefield.

[Murkhadh]

I firmly believe that shoot-y bricks like that should contain HG Rifles. They were meant to be the hard candy shell to your stormfall and discorda filled center.

huh? did I read that correctly?

[PG_Xardian]

The only thing HGR have going for them that something like Nyss or MHSF have is that they can CRA into melee. Apart from that they are worse in every way. No stealth, average def/arm means that even with the Imprint they're going down at range. They have slightly longer range, but to be honest that's only going to help in the first turn because after that you're close enough for it not to matter. They're also lower base RAT meaning you're less likely to take down infantry hordes through the game with them.

Now, if you're saying thematically-wise, then yeah, rifleman suit that role better cause it looks cooler on the battlefield.

I think it's more to do with HGR having Ranked Attacks. For those times when you bunch up around Disco and they go on the outside layer I'm guessing. Whether that's worth it to ya or not? <shrug>

[Murkhadh]

The only thing HGR have going for them that something like Nyss or MHSF have is that they can CRA into melee. Apart from that they are worse in every way. No stealth, average def/arm means that even with the Imprint they're going down at range. They have slightly longer range, but to be honest that's only going to help in the first turn because after that you're close enough for it not to matter. They're also lower base RAT meaning you're less likely to take down infantry hordes through the game with them.

Now, if you're saying thematically-wise, then yeah, rifleman suit that role better cause it looks cooler on the battlefield.

Thank you, you saved me some typing.

[Mastershake]

I think it's more to do with HGR having Ranked Attacks. For those times when you bunch up around Disco and they go on the outside layer I'm guessing. Whether that's worth it to ya or not? <shrug>

Ranked attacks would be more meaningful if another premier ranged unit in the faction didn't just ignore everything.