Jake writes a new article about Proteus

[PG_phatasian]

Check it out at Muse.

http://museonminis.com/proteus-conundrum-part-1/

I'm sure he would love to hear your thoughts.

[Episkopos]

I've been thinking Proteus with the Thagroshes just to have herding.

[Neutralyze]

What's herein going I do for ethags or pthags that you want it?

[PG_BloodRath]

Im glad your putting him through the grinder. Right now proteus makes it into my 50 pt absylonia list for lolz. Im thinking absylonia 2 may be his saving grace. (100% speculation)

[Crate123]

I can definately see him with pLylyth. She can help his pillowfistedness somewhat with Parasite and he can help her with herding .

[Warcaster Feiss]

I'm expecting Proteus to shine with Vayl1, since he can drag things into Incite range meaning Vayl1 can stay a little farther out of harm's range, hopefully keeping her safer.

I'm intending to try it at least, who doesn't want to own and paint up a gribbly Cthulu inspired beasty!

[Kalaris]

"I can go to Bed Bath and Beyond and get a better bargain on 2 Pillows than Proteus. "

LOL!!!

LIES they charge so much for pillows.

I knew how Neutralyze felt about Zoidberb before clicking the link, I hate to say I agree, but I've pretty much put a blank piece of paper over that page in my book so I don't have to look at it and think "maybe"....

[Roktop]

"I can go to Bed Bath and Beyond and get a better bargain on 2 Pillows than Proteus. "

LOL!!!

LIES they charge so much for pillows.

I knew how Neutralyze felt about Zoidberb before clicking the link, I hate to say I agree, but I've pretty much put a blank piece of paper over that page in my book so I don't have to look at it and think "maybe"....

Reach for Proteus Brand Pillows... Now with the pillowiest fists available!

[R.J.]

What's herein going I do for ethags or pthags that you want it?

Neutralyze, can you please double-check posts you make on your smartphone before you submit them? Your phone's autocorrect spits out unreadable gibberish on a pretty frequent basis.

[Linkdead]

Jake, you should write an article looking back on the competitive lists you have played through the history of the game. I think it would be a very interesting topic to examine how the game has changed through MK1 and MK2 using list construction as the vehicle of discussion. Playing the same faction on the convention circuit for so long gives you some unique perspectives on how the game meta has changed around a single faction.

[SteakAndSpirits]

I'll be honest, for all cool things that Legion got in Domination compared to other factions, character heavies was not among them -- I've looked over that page time and time again, hoping for something to jump out and grab me. So far...

...well. Yeah. Not so much. Proteus is definitely not a model that stands on its own two feet.

Hoping maybe Neutralyze can 'crack the code' and unlock Proteus' inner usefulness.

-s&s

[Defenstrator]

I saw him mention how it was going. Do not be hopeful.

[Neutralyze]

Neutralyze, can you please double-check posts you make on your smartphone before you submit them? Your phone's autocorrect spits out unreadable gibberish on a pretty frequent basis.

Thats half the fun

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

Yeah, can't wait to see what Neutralyze digs ups.

Just off the top of my head I see the following applications for Proteus.

-Extracting enemy casters from their hidey holes. With SS this lets Proteus grab a caster from 14" away. Thats a respectable distance. Under ELyls feat this goes to a more respectable 18". Rat 6 means there's not much getting away from him.

- Herding on such a hearty model (compared to the shepard) means that even a low fury caster (Lyls) can have a harrier or Raek floating around on a flank.

- Fury 5 means your forsaken gets full on turn 1.

Thoughts?

[Lich_Lord_X]

I still think he's decent enough for Abby T4 in a casual game. He's really cool looking, that's enough for me.

[Seferon]

I'm expecting Proteus to shine with Vayl1, since he can drag things into Incite range meaning Vayl1 can stay a little farther out of harm's range, hopefully keeping her safer.

I'm intending to try it at least, who doesn't want to own and paint up a gribbly Cthulu inspired beasty!

I don't see how he is really going to be good with Vayl1. Ok, you have drag. Thats cool but if your playing hordes, then she has the ability pull that model in by herself. So, is he worth the 11 points when your warlock has the ability to do it by herself against half of the game? Personally, i don't feel it. Also, in those games, you now have a heavy that is still pillow fisted compaired to something like a scythean. In most cases you are either dropping a Ravagore or Typhon from her list. Is it really worth dropping one of those two models for him to only do what he was really put in there against half of the game? I mean sure, he can still drag a model into incite range when Vayl pulls a model in through Rampager. So yeah, you can get 2 models into incite range that way, but unless you have 2 scytheans or a scythean and a Typhon with her on top of Proteus.....then what good is it that you are pulling 2 heavies in?

I dunno, i just don't see him being worth his points if he is only going to be useful half of the time.

[PG_BloodRath]

We have many warlocks with CMD range abilities. in 75+ pt games he could be useful but I dont think his nitch is 50 or less. Who knows? I have this strange suspicion in the back of my head that something I'm " Gargantuan's" is going to crack him wide open. *shrugs*

[Obeisance]

I'm interested to see the results. I kinda want to convert up an Extreme Proteus.

[Kalaris]

Prediction: They'll discontinue him , and re-release as our second Gargantuan, cause really, that might make him better, AND more hilarious.

[jhon]

Perhaps or he's just misundestood. if it wasn't for the tenticles I would field him as a support beast (like the seraph), He is a hardy shepard-ish guy that can open a brick with a pull-and-throw maneuver to allow a scythean-carni to charge the squishy models behind. or open up the command range for a raek to make an assassination run while letting your 'lock be twice as far back as usual. Haven't tried it myself but that's only cause I can't find it in myself to by an octopus with legs, in a dragons army.

[Defenstrator]

If you want a solid support beast for 11 points take a Scythean and two Shepherds.

[Seferon]

Perhaps or he's just misundestood. if it wasn't for the tenticles I would field him as a support beast (like the seraph), He is a hardy shepard-ish guy that can open a brick with a pull-and-throw maneuver to allow a scythean-carni to charge the squishy models behind. or open up the command range for a raek to make an assassination run while letting your 'lock be twice as far back as usual. Haven't tried it myself but that's only cause I can't find it in myself to by an octopus with legs, in a dragons army.

Why spend 11 points on a support beast so that a Raek can assassinate from further away when you could spend 1 point on a Shepherd and run it into position and get the same effect for 10 points less. I mean sure, you can take furry off the raek the next turn later with Proteus, but if your going for a assignation, you don't need that.

I just see there being to many flaws in his design. Partly because we have so much other things that do almost the same thing that he does for less points.

[Neutralyze]

Pretty much the best warlock to use proteus with is Pvayl.

[Roktop]

Pretty much the best warlock to use proteus with is Pvayl.

I still don't like Proteus much but I agree.

Incite and Dark Sentinel are good with him and the extra threat range out of rampager and tentacle drag could get 2 legion beasts onto a heavy if needed to finish it off.

I'm thinking he could be also alright with pThag as well for Draconic Blessing to bring his Pow up and pThog's feat doesn't say you can't bring a character beast back...

[Episkopos]

What's herein going I do for ethags or pthags that you want it?

I'm not quite sure what you said, but I have trouble keeping pThagrosh's Spd 5 non pathfinding *** in the fight with speed 6 to 8 beasts since all of them have pathfinder or flight.
I just want to see if the combat effectiveness of my Shredders goes up if I can actually control them rather than just wind them up and let them frenzy.

[Maerik]

I've only played one game with Proteus so far (With Absylonia), but he was a damned superstar.

If you break yourself of the assumption that Forced Evo should only be on an Angelius, the +2 Str makes Proteus a credible threat. The 5 fury's value cannot be understated. In that game he pulled a Khador 'jack out of the front line, dirt napped it, and did the same thing the second turn.

I treated him like a Carnivean that had a pull instead of assault. You can definitely argue that a Carnivean at 20/18/18 P+S might be more valuable, but I'd argue that a carny with +2 Str is overkill.

I'm not sure that I'd take him with any warlocks other than Abby and Vayl1 though. As has already been mentioned, with 3 initials, 5 fury, and incite how could you ever go wrong?

[Neutralyze]

Plylyth is the 2nd warlock to get the most with him followed by elylyth.

[Roadhouse]

I treated him like a Carnivean that had a pull instead of assault. You can definitely argue that a Carnivean at 20/18/18 P+S might be more valuable, but I'd argue that a carny with +2 Str is overkill.

You're right, +2 str on a Carnivean is overkill, he will wreck face without caster support. Proteus needs the help. The most commonly used support peices are considered cheap (pts wise) and extremely effective. What Proteus brings (Drag, Herding, Snacking) are not only of dubious utility in the faction, but were stuck on one of the most expensive beast frames across the system (Carni), so you end up with a beast that has neither melee output or utility to justify its cost... and he is terrible if your opponent brought colossal :P

[Snarkie]

Hah, for whatever reason I read the title as "Jake writes a new article about Prometheus" and for a split second was confused as to why he'd write a movie review.

[PG_Pszito]

Pretty much the best warlock to use proteus with is Pvayl.

i have echo this double fold. i think people have not been doing their maths.

i'm playtesting this match more this weekend. i'll chime in after.

[DrakkenBlut]

Main value of Proteus was the fact it could pull things. With BE, Collossals and some other unmoveable stuff (Tiberion), that is not something you can rely on anymore.

What's left? It can fill out a Forsaken in a turn, but I don't see the utility in that, perhaps if a successive recharge/blight bomb tactic emerges. Its animus is not all that useful, it relies on the opponent having living things in the army and your beasts getting damaged but not killed to have real value. So an Absy list or Saeryn , (would go great with Respawn). Oh, and there is Herding, but I don't see it as useful unless in bigger point games.

So not really worth it anymore.

[PG_Saturated Phat]

I saw the herding ability and wished that Proteus had an affinity with abby that gave him long leash. but alas... maybe mk3

[Bambamdan]

Whilst I can see that pVayl may get the best out of Proteus, that's not the same as saying Proteus gives a lot to pVayl...

[thewisp]

eThag would be good with Manifest Destiny since Proteus can produce 8 attacks. Personally hes on my to get list.

[Chad]

I've always been a bit confused about how people view this beast. First, they always compare it's damage output the heavy hitters - Carni, Scythean, Typhon. To me this is a bit senseless, since we wouldn't want another beast that's just like the any of them, since we already have them.

In terms of straight damage output, Typhon generally wins, followed by the carni, then by the scythean (with some fluctuations based on that third attack). Then you've got the Angelius which has mobility, defense and very fury efficient damage vs. med+ bases - it gives up straight damage output for the other things it can do. Next you've got the Ravagore, which has a very good animus and a decent range weapon, but is even more of a 'pillow fist' than Proteus, yet no one sane complains because that's not why you bring him. The seraph, similarly can't really match the damage output of out beatstick beasts, but it's very utilitarian - a decent (enough) ranged attack, and very good animus for a bargain at 8 pts.

Proteus isn't a beatstick. He's a utility beast with some interesting abilities. Herding gives a 'leashing' ability that we get with fragile shepherds. The reaper in the Cryx arsenal isn't valuable because it's a beatstick, it's valuable because of its ability to drag. Proteus has a smaller range, but also has the ability while in melee. It also has 5 fury, which means (potentially) 8 attacks. While it's chain weapon isn't of benefit every time, it does actually make the weapon better than P&S 17s against shieldwall troops, and almost as good against shields. Still it isn't intended to be as good at damaging as a carnivean, but what it does is it creates opportunities you may not have with a carni. Even a 2" drag is a game changer for an assassination run.

He's not fantastic with every caster no matter what, but he's a boon for the casters with more limited control range. There's also some potential shenanigans with Rhyas and her feat, being able to drag a model, then place, then drag another model with a follow up melee attack. Or just being able to drag multiple models in closer for AOE spells, etc. I really like him with PVayl for sure. Her cat and mouse feat may well lead to some interesting combinations. The Cryx reaper is limited to a single drag - and while his pulling ability may not be very far, it can, and will, be able to move models out of position. That, in my experience, really has the opportunity to muck with an opponents plan.

[brilder]

11 point models should not be good "sometimes". No one should be making an 11 point investment in a single model unless its definitely going to be a game-changer.

Carnivean....game-changer
Molik Karn....game-changer
Meglith....game-changer

[Chad]

I'm not actually saying he's only good 'sometimes' (unless you weren't responding to me in which case I apologize). I only said that he's not a beatstick.

Here's the thing - a carnivean is always a beatstick. He's pretty tough, and he's got fantastic damage output. You bring him for that purpose. Typhon is similar with a little more flexibility at what he can use to beat you up.

You don't Proteus for that purpose. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a purpose in every game, it just means that he's not the model you bring to crack the ARM of a arc shielded centurion any more than you would with a 10 point Ravagore. You might, instead, use Proteus to drag that cent out of the way while your other models assassinate the caster. Or to pull a model off an objective, etc.

Do every one of your lists have a carni, Typhon and/or Scythean? Mine haven't. When I play Cryx I don't always have the Nightmare or Deathjack either.

I would also argue that there is no guarantee that (with the possible exception of Molik who is still in dire need of tempering) those points are gamechangers. I've downed Megalith without so much as a whimper, I've lost carniveans as well before they've done anything. Affecting your opponents position is an extremely potent ability.

[Neutralyze]

@ Chad

I am spoiled when it comes to beasts. my main issue with Proteus as a character beast is that if you look across the whole game spectrum you will see that typically the character beasts and jacks are better versions of their counter parts. megalith brings more damage output with his utility and a great animus, Molik Karn and tiberion bring higher damage out over their other incarnation. same can be said for Warmachine jacks to an extent too.

Proteus brings utility but did we really need that utility to begin with? MAT 6 is one of hte biggest issue for me with him. i think hes the only character beast that didnt get MAT 7 but instead gained a bunch of minor abilities. Herding is cool with some warlocks but typically all the really good spells and feats require models to be in control area and near the army anyways. Pvayl is by far the best warlock we have that can utilize his drag ability and keep him safe with Cat and Mouse.

Proteus brings a lot more risk with him that other models. hitting a range 6 drag and damaging is key so youll use two of 5 fury there. charging in at reach you will use fury to boost the hit roll to ensure you get the enemy model into b2b for the bigger damage rolls. As for SW troops, while it does do something against SW troops the best example is centrati and other than that you would kill most single wound SW troops with any attacks.

name one character heavy jack or beast that doesnt bring better MAT or something to augment its damage output in some way.

[Seferon]

Behemoth is the closest thing i can think of that doesn't get a mat increase. However, it compensates it with 2 natural armor piercing fists, so.........I dunno, just the closest thing i could think of.

[SteakAndSpirits]

While I appreciate Chad's rays of sunshine on an otherwise cloudy Character Warbeast, I think the real crux of the issue is that Proteus is (at best) a cornercase Warbeast, where as each of the other Character Warbeasts have much clearer, more universal application -- Both in function, and in specific WL pairings. I'm fairly certain that Proteus does have some potent use in there, somewhere. But I suspect that PP was /really/ concerned about balance on this beast, and went a little overboard making sure that they rounded down, so to speak. And to be fair, Proteus did receive an increase: RAT.

Possibly a future release (that was known during the final play testings) will shed a little light on him and why he ended up where he was. As mentioned both Vayl and Lylyth seem to make some use out of him. That's good. Let's not pretend like he's entirely without value.

It's just, I'd like my Character Warbeasts to need an excuse not to play them, not the reverse.

-s&s