Tournament advice vs Minions

[DrFish]

I've got a tourney coming up and one of, IMO, the best players that is attending will be running Minions and specifically Carver and the good Doctor. Looking over their spells/abilities, it seems like they will be hard to deal with as a troll player. As it is a multi list event, I will have either Borka or eDoomie to use (I don't think I would want to run my Jarl infantry spam list vs either of those two warlocks). With no KD vs Carver, and the treat of Mind Control vs Doc, I am worried about getting destroyed in this match up. Any advice?

[sourclams]

If he's playing pure pigs then he's got basically a Skorne army without access to the Rush animus. He'll be able to kill anything, but be slow and resilient getting there with medium-good infantry.

Trolls largely out-threat them with Fenns, so you can rush up and jam and then simply apply Beasts until the list cracks. Carver's battlegroup is going to be camping high-ARM and has a feat effect not-unlike pButcher. Arkadius has slightly different/longer threat vectors and will probably be camping the gun-pig's animus to mind control any non-reach beasts that try to assassinate him.

Borka should be a pretty good pick against either.

[HellecticMojo]

I wouldn't worry too much. The farrow can't really boost accuracy with Ironflesh running, besides combined ranged from the farrow.

also the no knockdown is his battlegroup only, and since Carver's more infantry heavy than Arkadius, So it really shouldn't make too much of a difference.

Also if Arkadius is resorting to using the syringe, it means that he's desperate to meek out a a victory. He's really squishy.
also it's a full advance. Trolls are really too slow where stuff like mindcontrol really can't harm your lines too badly.

If anything watchout for the hogs. The hogs are the truest threat to the troll lines, and the farrow can get some scary efficiency out of them.

[DrFish]

Ah, ok. I guess I thought Ark's ammo things were a ranged attack. Good ol nebulous Battle College.

I played this guy with Carver before and on his feat turn he decimated my beasts with zero problem so I'm a bit gun shy!

[JamesDiGriz]

As someone who has played a fair amount of piggies, and have just started trolls, I will say look out for the slaugherhousers... Take down can be suprizingly effective (also a lot of fun to hit people using boomy as well). They also love to eat multi wound things a lot... 4D6 damage against a wounded model on the charge can be ridiculous (5D6 on Carvers feat turn more so).

[Beckman]

I've got a tourney coming up and one of, IMO, the best players that is attending will be running Minions and specifically Carver and the good Doctor. Looking over their spells/abilities, it seems like they will be hard to deal with as a troll player. As it is a multi list event, I will have either Borka or eDoomie to use (I don't think I would want to run my Jarl infantry spam list vs either of those two warlocks). With no KD vs Carver, and the treat of Mind Control vs Doc, I am worried about getting destroyed in this match up. Any advice?

I'll be honest... Pigs have no good answer to a beast brick. Bring:

Pretty much any caster with EBDT, Mauler/Rok/Pyre, Mulg, KSB+SSE, Janissa, and Axer it's not a very beatable combination for Piggies.

War Hogs and Road Hogs have no reach to get over Janissa's wall. They have no way to kill ARM22-23 beasts, or strip animi. Watch out for units trying to shoot your KSBs/Janissa... Keep at least one trash unit to keep that from happening and jamming up a flank maneuver. You eat their LIVING infantry to heal and keep alive... and camp on absurdly high ARM next to a wall that they cannot stop on. If Mulg attacks a War Hog... it's exploding no matter the defensive buffs that are on it.

Pyre is helpful if you're scared of road hogs and their boostable fire attacks that cause continuous fire... but you have KSB+SSE, so you should be immune to the continuous effect... pHoarluk is a good choice because he could Banishing Ward himself against Sturm and Drang.. AND he could strip Crippling Grasp from Dr. A. and his pHoarluk's feat is relevant against Farrow. eHoarluk would also work, but would be harder to pull off in certain matchups. Any other caster that works with a beast brick is also a good plan. Like pMadrak. Good luck trying to get through a Surefooted Beast Brick with Minions...

This list will also beat Gators, since they can't penetrate ARM very well.

Bring your second list against the rest of the non-minions field.

[Benejeseret]

As a pure Farrow player, let me throw in what I can

He'll be able to kill anything, but be slow and resilient getting there with medium-good infantry.

Umm...no. I suppose maybe if his playstyle is very atypical...but generally no to the slow. With Thornfall all units get AD and can be 16" up the first turn. Carver's battlegroup get Mobility for +2 SPD and that gets all the beasts between 12-18" the first run. Arkadius can be much slower if spamming warhogs...but on feat turn they basically get 2x turns each so can be very speedy for that one time. I often win scenario games simply by overtaking and boxing in. Not to mention overtake, hyperaggression, Lightning Strike, Rorsh and Brine and hog wild. Farrow have many, many, many movement shenanigans options and you need to be aware of them.

Farrow =/= slow

HellecticMojo has a lot of it right (except that first sentence). The others are mostly right as well.

War Hogs and Road Hogs have no reach to get over Janissa's wall.

True, they have no reach. But Carver's mobility gives them PF to hop it if you give them room.

They have no way to kill ARM22-23 beasts

Ummmm.....Arkadius can get warhogs hitting at POW20. 6x POW20, and a POW18 and one of those it auto-boosted frenzy. And if Targ is around that is one more. That first attack should always come from the gore attack and you might be facing KD for auto-hits of all those cleavers.
Then there is the SH at 4-5d6+11 per charge with Carver, or Carver generally making everything weaponmasters for a feat turn.

Other thoughts:
-His SH, or Brine, will ignore tough and so you might be facing a tough army while denied it in return.
-Gunboars and Brine have a special rule Bacon that your opponent might "forget" that heals adjacent warbeasts for 1d3 HP. This should stack with any snacking abilities.
-Carver lists can decimate infantry while Arky lists can pound through anything but is very squishy

Borka
Farrow RAT is terrible overall so indeed DEF buffs are brutal to overcome. Our DEF tends to be low (except dig-in) so hitting us is often not an issue. Wind Wall will also really hurt a classic Carver Brigand spam. But overall borka does less directly against a classic Arky list.

Doomie
Farrow have no Fury control. We manage Frenzies, not Furry, so we are always running hot and Agitation could really mess with us. Likely better against classic Arky list

[Beckman]

Ummmm.....Arkadius can get warhogs hitting at POW20. 6x POW20, and a POW18 and one of those it auto-boosted frenzy. And if Targ is around that is one more. That first attack should always come from the gore attack and you might be facing KD for auto-hits of all those cleavers.

I assume you're talking about forced evolution there. Right? I don't understand how you're actually reaching around the wall. Or getting the first strike, for that matter. Assuming that the troll player brought Fennblades, or a reasonable tie-up unit.

Then there is the SH at 4-5d6+11 per charge with Carver, or Carver generally making everything weaponmasters for a feat turn.

Literally any heavy in Trollbloods outthreats a War Hog with mobility.. if we have an Axer. Caster specifically, we don't need the Axer. Sure, Quagmire can give issues... but remember that the wall is going to be in a position to stop reasonable charges.

-Carver lists can decimate infantry while Arky lists can pound through anything but is very squishy

No. Carver lists are weak against a lot of infantry. If I was running an typical eMaddy list, I would have no fear of Carver's infantry. Burrowers, Go? Fennblades + minifeat, go? Pop feat, thresher?

Farrow RAT is terrible overall so indeed DEF buffs are brutal to overcome. Our DEF tends to be low (except dig-in) so hitting us is often not an issue. Wind Wall will also really hurt a classic Carver Brigand spam. But overall borka does less directly against a classic Arky list.

No arguement there... Although DEF18 Nyss taken to DEF16 with Crippling Grasp (provided that you can land it) is still really troublesome for an Arky list.

Doomie
Farrow have no Fury control. We manage Frenzies, not Furry, so we are always running hot and Agitation could really mess with us. Likely better against classic Arky list

I can't see how you win against eDoomy or pDoomy beast brick. Either seems like a death sentence. There will be no charging from the front because of super-happy Janissa fun wall. EBDT has a lot of boxes. Even in your scenario with 5x POW20, 1xPOW18 and a possible extra POW20, you're not guaranteed to kill it. IF you got all 6 POW20s AND a POW18, that's 33 damage on average against the EBDT. Assuming all hits, which would be unlikely outside of a critical scenario. Even a single miss would throw the numbers down the tube. If you multiply the damage by the chance to hit, you're certainly unlikely to kill the EBDT. If you're talking about Mulg, you're short by 8 boxes even with all hits.

Certainly, we can agree that with Dr. A. without the feat and careful setup, you won't get the charge off on the wall, the wall will charge you. With the feat, in order to get the attacks, the frenzy will need to go towards movement and not on either the EBDT or Mulg. Because their base threat is higher than the War Hog's, and because the wall would require the War Hogs to approach at an awkward angle.

In Carver's case, getting the charge off on the wall would require canny Quagmire usage which while possible (due to Tough Rolls) isn't terribly likely, due to Primal Shock with eHoarluk, or Purification with pHoarluk. Other casters would be a case-by-case.

Play your cards right, and it's very, very, hard for the other player to get past the wall in the first place.

[Benejeseret]

Maybe one day we can settle our difference on the field

All I'm trying is to offer some theoretical counter or a "what I would do." And I'll continue to do that in a sec.

I assume by a wall you mean a physical wall/structure, yes? So long as you fill the gaps and know the setup I fully agree that it can shut down charges. What I was saying that with pathfinder from Mobility we can charge over a wall if we can land beside. I have gotten caster kills by having Carver hop a wall (charge) with Mobility when not expected. Carver also has Reach, thus a personal threat range of 13", 15" with Massacre, 16"+ with overtake etc.

Also not quite sure what you mean regarding quagmire, but here is how I use quagmire. I set quagmire on a unit. Then I have the various members Run, so that one member is B2B each with different members of the opponent "Brick." The idea is to tie down as many different enemy models as possible. Then...I expect them to die. But in the meantime my 0.5 point Bonegrinder is preventing movement until dealt with and I have some room to setup, flank, or whatever is needed. Since they have started AD, they will be locking things down between turn 1-2 depending on how fast the opponent is, who goes first etc.
- How to counter = something like primal surge works great.

DrFish, you listed what 2 warlock you wanted so I will stick to them or general stuff. I agree with you (and totally disagree with Beckman) that infantry spam is not a great idea. Especially so against Carver. Against Arkadius infantry spam might work if you can tie up the beasts and get around to assassinate the Dr. I really wish the Dr has ranged mind control needles but sadly his weapon is 90% useless unless you have a lone solo or beast running far ahead.

Other suggestions:
- Out range us. The farrow range is only 10" or less on everything other than the Razorbacks (14") and bonegrinders (12") so you can out distance us with an Impaler without issue.
- The impaler in general with ranged crit slams can help keep those warhogs back
- We have no way to deal with LOS issues. We have lots of Pathfinder granting effects, but nothing to let us charge/see through clouds or such things.
- We have no heavy infantry. So anything that auto-damages or threaten to damage even 1 point is an issue. Cover fire, ongoing effects etc suck for us.
- We have very limited options so you know what to expect. Have sprays to use against dug-in brigands, deal with Slaughterhousers with AoE or infantry ranged shooting ideally, be cautious that bonegrinders can fire their lazer with up to an effective RAT 11 to pick off solos/UA/WA but are otherwise rubbish.
-Do trolls have any way to get a Lamentation type spellcasting denial effects? I find that Lamentation especially completely shuts down Carver pretty effectively. Most of his spells are not upkeeps and need to be cast every turn. Paying double means his Batten Down takes ALL of his Fury.