Is white metal ever going to be completely phased out one day?

[PG_Viper114]

It's hard to say with PP's current products. In some cases it looks like it, when we see full plastic/resin kits of warjacks and warbeasts and a few units. But then there are ones who say the opposite, like new warcasters/warlocks and the new huge-based models using a combination of resin and metal.

Metal is a pain. It's harder to get to stay together without accelerant, and even using accelerant makes the glue joining a lot more brittle in the inevitable moment where the model will fall and shatter into its component pieces (it's never a question of if, but when they'll get dropped or fall). The only time I don't have an issue with metal is when the whole model is a single piece and just needs to be put on the base.

I don't get that problem with resin, be it the plastic/resin kits PP puts out or the Citadel Finecast models from GW. The models seem to glue together a lot easier without the need for accelerant, and are a lot stronger because of it. I've seen someone drop one of their plastic warjacks and it simply bounced yet remained completely intact (he just needed a quick retouch of the paint, of course). Hell, I can huck one of my Fennblades across the room and it will bounce unharmed.

So is it PP's plan to ever drop metal entirely, much like what GW's plan is with their Finecast line? It would be nice to be rid of metal completely when you can get the same results with plastic or resin these days, yet be more durable on top. And I wold have no problem paying a little bit more for new models in plastic rather than metal.

[Cakewst]

I really, REALLY, hope white metal is never completely phased out. Plastic just doesn't have the same solid feel and weight to it which seriously bugs me. I don't mind the Resin and White Metal kits for the larger models as those do have more issues with how heavy they get if they were completely metal. For all its issues I just really prefer the metal over plastic and would be extremely disappointed if it disappeared completely. (Also I have had no issues with my metal models falling apart when using epoxy glue, even when dropped). I have the complete opposite view in that I would gladly pay more for the metal models over plastic and will go out of my way to find some of the metal models that have been replaced by plastic and constantly wish that some of the kits with no older metal version (like the Retribution heavy myrmidons) had the option to buy a metal kit.

[jandrese]

I would take issue with the "same results" line. I'm simultaneously painting an old school Crusader (it came with a black and white card in the blister!) and one of the new plastic multipart kits, and when they are side by side it is really obvious that the metal kit holds detail much better. The plastic kit is uneven and bulgy and the tiny detail parts are all rounded out unlike the sharp detail bits on the metal model. This isn't a huge problem on a big basic warjack like a Crusader chassis heavy, but would make casting a model like Vindictus in plastic pretty much impossible.

Resin has the disadvantage of being somewhat poisonous and the casting process is definitely not as refined as the metal process yet. Pretty much every resin model I've seen so far has mild miscast bits and/or bubbles somewhere, where miscasts of metal bits is rare.

I'm also not sure why you are having so much trouble gluing metal. Typically that's an easy case for CA glue, with plastics being more difficult. The only real advantage there is that the plastic and resin models are lighter, and if dropped they will have less energy built up when they hit the ground.

[PG_Viper114]

They've come a LONG way with details on resins than they did in the past. Like with GW's Finecast selection, a Finecast model holds as much detail as its older metal counterpart. We've pretty much hit the point where any detail differences between the two materials are minimal. And I'm certain if GW can do it with their Finecast selection, PP could do it with their smaller models, too.

Sitting there and holding two metal pieces with superglue between them takes forever without accelerant. I have no such issues with plastic or resin, the superglue seems to set quickly. And I just prefer the lightweight of plastic and resin, makes carrying around the models a lot easier. I would love it if they just dropped metal.

[Lich_Lord_X]

And I'm certain if GW can do it with their Finecast selection, PP could do it with their smaller models, too.

I certainly hope PP can do it better than GW because the first run of Finecast were some of the worst miscasts I have ever seen. Didn't help either that GW did want to admit that they were.

[jandrese]

I never use accelerant when I glue for what it's worth, and assembly is always the quickest step for me--but I don't do a whole lot of pinning.

Seriously though, grab a Vindictus model and the Vessel of Judgement and compare the level of detail in the scrollwork along Vindictus's chestplate and the detail around the Vessel. They're not even in the same league.

[BryanC]

You never know, given time they may produce a material that can hold detail in the same way as white metal. If that ever happens i could see phasing out of metal altogether. Right now however the plasic, while really good, just doesnt hold the same level of fine detail as metal.

[PG_Vynde]

I dont use accelerant for anything.. Krazy glue from walmart holds my models together.. couple seconds.

I am in the same boat of prefering the feel of metal over plastic.

[GreenJello]

I'd say it's a definite possibility, for all but the smallest single instance models. (I'd expect the 30 mm base solos and casters to remain metal)

Personally I like metal a lot better than plastic for a variety of reasons. GW switched to Finecast purely as a money saving move, and upped the price. Luckily PP has passed some of the savings on, which I can respect. I seldom have problems with models of either sort breaking, but when I do, I'd rather it be the metal than plastic. The plastics are uniformly too brittle, which means that when something breaks, it's pretty much gone. With metal it will usually bend a few times, and then break. At that point it's usually possible to glue it back together.

[mortal]

I am also on the side of metal over plastic. I like the feel of it in my hand and feel like I've bought a solid model and not a toy.

I appreciate the cheaper models with options and all, but if its the choice of a plastic dire troll or paying more for a dire troll extreme, i'll order the extreme metal model.

[Tyr852]

I waffle down the middle , for conversions plastic is nice but I also like the weight to a model (even goes back to playing chess where I always prefer the heavy pieces to the plastic ones). Behemoth being obviously one of my favorite units ^_^ and some day extremeoth.

[Harvester]

I want more metal.. Plastic/resin really bugs me.. It feels wrong, it has the wrong weight and looks different when painted.. Besides the resin mini's have mold lines and leftovers the weirdest places

[Jamora]

The other day I dropped my metal models about 6 feet from the ground by accident. Not a single one came apart. Just scrub your models with water, soap and a toothbrush before assembling them.

[HeadHunter]

White metal and PP "plastic" require the same sort of adhesive, generally - so I don't see why anyone would think that plastic assembles more easily. We've been putting together metalmodels this way for decades.

The plastic is harder to clean up or cut than white metal, and far more difficult to work with than styrene. As others have mentioned, it holds detail worse than either styrene or white metal, and its only real saving grace is its durability.

[Domoto]

I am fine with Resin taking over...but at least the new type resin used in certain kits. I am sorry to say this, but most of the plastic kits I have used by PP have TERRIBLE mold line issues as well parts not fitting. Not all of them are bad mind you, it seems like any start kit is the worst of the bunch though. The new Skorne kit was a nightmare with the mold lines and flash, and from what I have seen of the Warmachine two player battle box that my group used, the Man-o-war were just bad, along with most of the jacks having awfully placed mold lines over bolts and such and huge pieces of flash. I absolutely adore the models PP makes...but they really need to get on their casting game because as it stands most of their models (not all again) need WAY more work than miniatures I have used from other games.

On a side note, the best part of the metal besides being easier to clean is the fact that since every single weapon I have ever gotten whether plastic or metal from a PP model is bent...the metal is no issue at all, where as the plastic...that's another story. Metal does allow more mold lines to sneak past being cleaned though...

[TsavongLah]

Eh, Gorilla super glue and the occasional pinning solves everything.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I am also on the side of metal over plastic. I like the feel of it in my hand and feel like I've bought a solid model and not a toy.

I appreciate the cheaper models with options and all, but if its the choice of a plastic dire troll or paying more for a dire troll extreme, i'll order the extreme metal model.

Ah, you like to pretend your toy soldiers aren't toy soldiers?

[Bronze Knight]

I really, REALLY, hope white metal is never completely phased out. Plastic just doesn't have the same solid feel and weight to it which seriously bugs me. I don't mind the Resin and White Metal kits for the larger models as those do have more issues with how heavy they get if they were completely metal. For all its issues I just really prefer the metal over plastic and would be extremely disappointed if it disappeared completely. (Also I have had no issues with my metal models falling apart when using epoxy glue, even when dropped). I have the complete opposite view in that I would gladly pay more for the metal models over plastic and will go out of my way to find some of the metal models that have been replaced by plastic and constantly wish that some of the kits with no older metal version (like the Retribution heavy myrmidons) had the option to buy a metal kit.

THIS.

I remember the advertising for Warmachine back when I was getting into it(05/06) and how the fact that all the models were all metal was a big thing that attracted me to it. I was very disappointed when I heard about the switch to/inclusion of plastic in WM. That said Battle Engines and Colossals are only possible because of plastic so I'm less mad about it now.

Ah, you like to pretend your toy soldiers aren't toy soldiers?

Don't we all?

[Seventhprophet]

After just finishing a unit of metal man-o-wars, I'm assembling a new second unit in plastic and it's horrible. The detail is really poor. Sanding tends to bend and warp the plastic instead of shaping cleanly like the metal did. I can't wait for the return to metal. A part of me wants plastic 3d printers to catch on so PP will go back to metal as a means of verifying authenticy. (no idea if that works, for all I know there are metal 3d printers)

[Not So Feral]

Isn't it a rite of passage when you accidentaly drop your figure case full of metal models on your toe?

Phasing it out completely would lose that fine tradition

[Not So Feral]

Double post!

[PG_MidwestJedi]

My biggest gripe with the plastics are all of the mold lines and how they can't be filed effectively. It is all knife work to get things cleaned up, then it is easy to gouge or scar the model with a small slip. I also prefer the feel of the metal on the tabletop. Metal models feel substantial and hold their spot on the table.

[Karl Eller]

I'm fine with plastic for bigger models like 'jacks or units that I want 2+ of for cost reasons, but I much prefer metal for the detail. PP really needs to greatly improve on their molding process before I'd be happy swapping to all plastic. Too many of the current plastic models are lacking detail compared to their metal counterpart and suffer from horrendous mold lines and frequent small miscasts (two halves of the mold not quite lining up). Also, I find the plastic much harder to clean up compared to the polystyrene that GW uses.

[Matthaeus]

After reading this thread, I still don't get why anyone would prefer metal over plastic.

Plastic is so much more hobby-friendly it's not even funny. Easier to assemble, keep in place and work with than metal by far.
Anybody who's taken a look at GW's products in the last years knows the argument "plastic is inferior" just doesn't stand. In fact, this forum is the first place where I've heard that metal was synonymous with more details. Plastic can accomplish the same things and then some ; the greatly reduced gravitational constraints allow for more dynamic poses and more degrees of freedom.
In fact, I've just found an old magazine with an article on this topic where they interview professionals. When asked "Why resin ?", they answer that it actually allows for finer details (down to 1/100,000 mm vs 1/10,000 for metal), which is also convenient for the sculptor. They mention less mold lines and less deformations (IFP anyone ?). They show examples, where resin models appear more smooth and less chunky. This was in 2004, mind you, so I think it's safe to assume the technology is only more established nowadays.

Now maybe PP's equipment is not high end in that regard. I hear they're rather inconsistent about sculpts generally speaking, it might well not be a priority for them ; but the blame is not on the material.

The ideal solution would be to have both available to provide people with a variety of choice. In a non-ideal scenario, I sure hope we're moving away from metal. I've just been recently introduced to WMH and the high proportion of metal models would have been a disincentive if not for the plastic releases.

Plastic/resin looks different when painted..

... Look, there's personal preference, and then there's superstition.

[Karl Eller]

After reading this thread, I still don't get why anyone would prefer metal over plastic.

Plastic is so much more hobby-friendly it's not even funny. Easier to assemble, keep in place and work with than metal by far.
Anybody who's taken a look at GW's products in the last years knows the argument "plastic is inferior" just doesn't stand. In fact, this forum is the first place where I've heard that metal was synonymous with more details. Plastic can accomplish the same things and then some ; the greatly reduced gravitational constraints allow for more dynamic poses and more degrees of freedom.
In fact, I've just found an old magazine with an article on this topic where they interview professionals. When asked "Why resin ?", they answer that it actually allows for finer details (down to 1/100,000 mm vs 1/10,000 for metal), which is also convenient for the sculptor. They mention less mold lines and less deformations (IFP anyone ?). They show examples, where resin models appear more smooth and less chunky. This was in 2004, mind you, so I think it's safe to assume the technology is only more established nowadays.

Now maybe PP's equipment is not high end in that regard. I hear they're rather inconsistent about sculpts generally speaking, it might well not be a priority for them ; but the blame is not on the material.

The ideal solution would be to have both available to provide people with a variety of choice. In a non-ideal scenario, I sure hope we're moving away from metal. I've just been recently introduced to WMH and the high proportion of metal models would have been a disincentive if not for the plastic releases.

For starters, we're talking about plastics here, not resin. The resin that PP uses for some of their models (Colossals, Battle Engines) is different to the plastics they use in the warpack/battlegroup boxes (and GW uses a different plastic to PP). If PP's plastics were up to par with GW's, you would have a point, but at the moment PP's plastics are nowhere near that level of quality. Yes, metals take a little longer to assemble (although the difference isn't nearly as big as you might think when you take into account all the cleaning up that PP's plastics need), but the individual models hold much more detail. Compare the plastic pSorscha you get in the battlebox to her metal form or eSorscha or compare the metal Man-O-War to the newer plastics and you see a pretty big difference. Small details like rivets, edging of armour and vents tend to become blurred and rounded

[brilder]

Regarding 25-50mm miniatures, the manufacturing process is more expensive with Resin than with White Metal. Resin uses a more time-consuming process and miscasts cannot be recycled.

I prefer plastic and resin to metal because I don't just paint models; I also play with them. I think my army bag would be about 30lbs lighter if all my minis were plastic.

If they stayed at home on a shelf all the time, then I would probably prefer metal minis.