Galleon, Who Runs it Best? A Friendly Debate/Bar room brawl

[Ger]

To get this rough housing debate going...

I believe the order the Merc casters want a Galleon is as follows: Bart, PMagnus, EMagnus, Fiona/Shae, and then the rest of the human mercs..

I feel Bart's Hotshot, Batten Down the Hatches, and Feat combine to be the most optimal combo for a Galleon. Offering absurd protection and damage output. Broadsides becomes an expensive option for a second drag which may be situationally worthwhile but not a go to spell. Notably Batten Down the Hatches is an upkeep on Bart. Therefore E Eyriss shooting the Galleon is worthless for the opponent.

P Magnus brings Renegade, Snipe, Temper Metal and Iron Aggression. The feat's a loss however Magnus does have backstab and this could lead to some shenanigans.

E Magnus brings Renegade, Kill Box, Backstab (and bond), and Mobility. Calamity is also notable but awkward to use. Still it could allow a Galleon to tear apart another Collosalal in one turn.

For both Fiona and Shae it's less what they do for the Galleon and more what it does for them. They'll both enjoy having a 120 mm base to hide behind and an effecient heavy beater. Fiona can notably hide a unit of Long Gunners with Nonokrion Brand behind a Galleon. Shae can Phantasm the Galleon/Veil of Mists next to it to leading to a large area to hide behind.

Ashlynn I feel does not want to spend that many points on a single model. Quicken is also only going to be a slight speed boost if applied to a Galleon as the Def boost brings the base 9 to an 11 which isn't really great. Roulette while useful is again not as good as other options. Overall I'd rather have those 18 points as x2 heavies with some infantry.

Damiano I feel is much better off having two heavies for less then the cost of a Galleon. He'll be supurb against them due to his kit and has some synergy with the Galleon. But nothing really amazing and thus competitively not worth it.

Drake MacBain I feel the same about. Against a Collosal Drake can deliver a Nomad and rely on jackhammer to do a ton of damage. The Collosal then kills the Nomad and gets hit by a second Nomad. Then there's Kayazy Assassins.

In contrast Drake doesn't do a whole lot for a Collosal itself in comparison to dual heavies. Sure there's jackhammer but Collosals already hit really hard and can you rely on getting Galleon in melee with two heavy targets to make jackhammer worth it? Without Energizer? Upkeepable Arm boosts will be unreliable on Collosals and Drakes costs 3 focus to apply! Fortune may be the best spell he has for the Collosal but it has plenty of solid targets to go on so I don't see much of a loss there. Counter Measure's becomes awkward to use when you want to shove it down an enemies throat and have a Collosal that relies on bombarding an area with AoEs.
Furthermore Drake really wants a decent infantry combo to pair with his feat! A cheaper but just as good option in the battlegroup frees up more space for infantry.

So while I feel Drake can use it and quite well. I don't feel he particularly wants to use it and has stronger options in a combination of heavies and infantry.


So that's my perspective on matters right now. With a focus on Drake.

[nicholas_342]

Gorten! Oh wait, we're screwed there

[jonconcarne]

You underestimate Macbain! Between Jackhammer, Failsafe, and his feat which can be used to prevent charge lanes from opening up to Galleon, you've got a lot going on. Plus all the new power attacks are boss when you can jackhammer at P+S 23 afterwards. Really though, Galleon is just a great target for Failsafe. Beyond that, Galleon is way better than running Nomads in a lot of cases because of all the utility that he brings.

[Ger]

I actually don't think Galleon is a great target for Fail Safe. It's half your focus to apply and when are you applying it? After systems are out? I'd rather repair Galleon at that point. So is it the arm buff? Well I think upkeep hate is going to hit that hard. I'd rather have Temper Metal and a mechanic.

I don't see a dragable target that I'd expect to survive Galleon beating on it. So for Galleon I feel jackhammer is just a way to output against secondary targets that are in melee with it and that's too situational for me to bank on. In contrast a Heavy has less application zone and raising it's output is going to matter more. Especially fighting against a Collosal.

And I don't just mean x2 Nomads. Rociante and a Mangler is 17 points. 1 cheaper and has a lot of beats. There's a lot of mixes of jacks you could apply with Drake and by having Heavies you can utilize Energizer.

So I basically see Drake being fairly indifferent toward Galleon because he has other very solid options. What does Galleon do for Drake he can't do other wise? Or are we going to be taking Galleon simply because it has Drag with any of our casters?

[absent]

Failsafe is +2 arm all day on a 58 health model, yeah i think you should probably do that turn 1...

[mikethefish]

I'll reply to what I very much disagree with you about Drake later on. You are seriously underestimating his potential IMO.

Instead I will address what i believe is an OVERestimation of pMagnus' potential with Galleon. He would, in fact, be one of the LAST people I would give a Colossal to and for two simple reasons - his Feat and his Upkeeps. Let me expound...

FEAT
Galleon literally cannot use pMagnus' Feat since it involves out-of-turn movement. Now i totally get that Magnus isn't really setting the world on fire with his Feat. But hey - it IS there and taking ssomething in his battlegroup that is so massively costly, and that can't use his feat ability seems a huge waste - especially since with Galleon in the game, pMagnus won't be running a very large battlegroup. This I will deal with below...

UPKEEPS
In short, Magnus has a lot of them. Further, he has resourceful for his jacks and himself. Those two facts mean that Magnus wants a minimum of about 3 jacks in his battlegroup as its not like Galleon can use all those upkeeps himself! The problem Galleon brings is that he is so darn expensive that by the time you add all those points together, you are looking at about 30 pts in just jacks alone. This will really cut into the rest of the points that Magnus needs for his favorite troops and support solos (and I do mean NEEDS). I suppose at 50 pts you might be alright, but even then i have my doubts. Magnus is one of the very few casters we have who needs a largish group of jacks to play with and Galleons cost is a big problem for something like that.

I'm not saying that you are wrong, Ger, but i really don't think you have thought of the fine details and logistics of pMagnus and Galleon. A big BG with free upkeeps is Magnus' "thing". His forte is NOT taking one jack and making it awesome (that's more Drake's deal, but i digress for now lol)

[cannonball]

Jackhammer post Drag allows you not to over invest focus in the Galleon. It's almost like your playing Hordes with Jackhammer! Also out of turn actions allow you to melee annoying jammers and then still advance and shoot/melee again. So in effect perhaps getting more melee attacks out of the Galleon than you could usually. Ala 5 Jackhammers and then 2initals. Handy vs. low DEF heavies that fall into you. Also POW 21 and 19 melee attacks are a new boon for mercs. Nots what to love about that? And no reason not to run a Mangler with Fortune as well. Always nice to have a flanking heavy with the Galleon who can one two an opponent. And yes the rest of the points go into support/melee troops.

And Cpt Damiano isn't such a bad option either. Sure Foot for the massive def/KD bonus as well as another vector to close the gap and flex that extra STR bonus onto their heavy.

[mikethefish]

Jackhammer post Drag allows you not to over invest focus in the Galleon. It's almost like your playing Hordes with Jackhammer! Also out of turn actions allow you to melee annoying jammers and then still advance and shoot/melee again. So in effect perhaps getting more melee attacks out of the Galleon than you could usually. Ala 5 Jackhammers and then 2initals

Another hidden benefit to jackhammer is Galleon's base size. Obviously it's huge! And since Galleon isn't going to be closer to the ENEMY than a normal heavy jack would be, that means that the base's excess bulk will be closer to your side. IE- closer to Drake himself. Its as if Jackhammer gains at least 2 inches of range. Combine that with Sylas and you can JH from a very safe distance indeed

[Ger]

I can see what your getting at Mike. However I feel the Renegade synergy is pretty outrageous. Renegade + Galleon is and pop a drop wet dream. I also think Snipe is the big upkeep there giving an amazing 18" guns and 14" Drag! I agree the Feat is a total waste.

Still I'm pretty much ready to give both Magnus a huge boost simply because they can run the Renegade alongside the Galleon.

As far as Arm boosting spells. Battens the only one I really love for the Galleon and that's because it is immune to hate and a +3.

Cannonballs point on Jackhammer to psuedo-fury is an excellent one and I'm going to just concede that. Really cool interaction.

On def boosting spells? I think it's a waste. You get to what? An 11? That's nothing. We start at 9 and can't gain cover or concealment. Def boosts are just not useful. Sure Foot specifically isn't great. The KD immunity is also a waste on a Galleon. Further, you have a now Def 11 target to hit with upkeep hate to remove the area of Sure foot boosting...and I feel like trying to surround a Galleon to take advantage of Sure foot's +2 is going to lead to positioning / activation issues.



OH I just realized I forgot Constance. She's the warcaster that can run a Galleon I'd be least likely to want to run one with.

BTW happy to see ya here Mike. Figured we shouldn't derail the poor gentlemans thread.

::EDIT::
I'm already convinced to alter my personal ranking to put Drake ahead of Shae and Fiona on my own list.

[PG_DaveZee]

I'm firmly in the MacBain camp. I am looking forward to trying it out.

[cannonball]

Conceeded point on Surefoot but eMageHunter isn't in every list.

Also good point on the massive base making it easier to keep in range for jackHammer. And Fail Safe to ignore systems is a such a boon with 56 damage boxes. Admittantly I've only seen one game with Stormwall but ignoring if a side gets totaled is a pretty good boost. And the Galleon may only need to weather the storm for one turn before Drake pops feat and sends in the Assassin storm. Either they'll be dead from the assassins or they'll have spent the turn trying to clear them out. If the latter you could charge a unmolested Galleon into them and JackHammer away until done.

(Edit) Also with the extra space from a massive base plus Whishnailer the elf you could conceivably run the Galleon 10" + 2" reach and then cast Jackhammer five times onto the hapless foe. If you can get them KD beforehand, all the better. Add feared Bokurs to get the slam off beforehand.

[mikethefish]

Oh no worries Ger, looked like a fun topic

And i do get what you are saying with Magnus ...I don't know though really. The pop and drop maneuver you describe just really seems like a gimmick to me. I get that Snipe is pretty neat and all, but I really feel that the crux of your argument stems from the fact that Magnus can bring Renegades and nobody else can. You don't really seem that thrilled with the actual abilities that Magnus himself brings. Renegades are great and all but this sort of playstyle really seems to go against Magnus' strengths.

I think you are making him play second fiddle to his own army, when it should be more of a symbiotic relationship. The fact that you include EPIC Magnus so highly in this list only reinforces my view. I mean what is he bringing to Galleon's party? Mobility? Cool and all but not compared to other casters. I suppose you could bond it too, but that just seems silly. The extra focus is nice, but if your opponent ever lets Galleon's lard-assed gigantic base spend an entire action in his rear arc to take advantage of Backstab, then he might as well turn in his gamer card at that point because he truly is doing it wrong lol

I guess where we differ is just on how much we value the Galleon/Renegade team. That's cool though - opinions vary and such!

[Ger]

Pop and Drop is always a Gimmick...but it's one that works! If an enemies list doesn't hard counter it (KD immunity) they are forced to play a specific way to avoid death...or they don't play that way and you get an easy if cheesy win. Mind I'd just go with one Renegade.

As for what pMagnus's Strengths are...he's flexible. There's a number of ways to play him. I also listed backstab in my original post for a reason! Galleon can force Backstabs from either Magnus!

With P Magnus imagine backing up a Galleon shooting something 16" away (double powder ration) and pulling it PAST Magnus. If it survived Magnus get's his backstab off on it. Then his feat let's him retreat behind the Galleon!

E Magnus brings his feat which is going to zone out the enemy like Bart's feat. Giving a Galleon two turns to crump things.
Calamity is listed with E Magnus because it makes him + Galleon really good against other Colossal. Calamity is not going to need a boost to hit against Def 10. So then you are RaT 7/9 Pow 15 bombs, Pow 17 harpoon ETC ETC. And more importantly effective MaT 8!

Still I agree I'm valuing the Renegade Galleon synergy very highly. If it turns out to be a dud I'd go Bart P Magnus Drake as my top 3.


Hmmm maybe I can offer up a bit more explanation.

When I look for stuff to run with the Galleon I'm looking for
-Boosts to it's ranged output.
-Ability to hamper an incoming army. (give Galleon an additional turn to smash stuff at range)
-Reliable Armor boosts

I'm not sure I really need anything else with the model...

[Dakkaface]

I suppose you could bond it too, but that just seems silly. The extra focus is nice, but if your opponent ever lets Galleon's lard-assed gigantic base spend an entire action in his rear arc to take advantage of Backstab, then he might as well turn in his gamer card at that point because he truly is doing it wrong lol

Actually, I viewed the Galleon as a way to reliably TRIGGER Backstab - if you position your bonded jack forward of the Galleon, then use Drag to pull an enemy jack out of formation, now when the jack activates, it will start it's activation in rear arc of the dragged model and qualify for Backstab.

[moddball]

Two casters stand out for me Bart clearly and for me MacBain. Bart IMO give the Galleon a huge boost at range. His feat and spell list is made for he Galleon and I am glad that Bart will get some more game time, this is a much need boost for this caster.

MacBain for me is a great caster for keeping the solo support alive. Galleon becomes beastly because of the support of other models outside of the caster, Wrong Eye and a bull snapper, MacNaile, Ragman. MacBain helps to keep this solo support and mechanics alive for the turns that matter. His feat can also keep a couple of key blockers alive to stop charges. His spell list is a useful toolbox fail-safe is a great spell I agree upkeep removal will mean you burn focus but if you have a Galleon hanging on with one box left you will be happy you picked MacBain. Also Jackhammer is just the best spell you could hope for.

[lastspartacus]

I know some stand in a die hard way next to Macbain, and he has real merits. I prefer Bart for the following reasons:

Batten the hatches is higher arm and, more importantly, cannot be dispelled, which I find huge in a tourny scene.

Hotshot stacked with that many shots seems much more versatile than jackhammer. You can wipe out infantry much more reliably, destroy or cripple a heavy from 14" away, and it even stacks with your melee if you drag a target or walk into range and successfully trigger drag on the target. On averages, all focus going into jackhammer isn't too much more than hotshot+3 focus.

Hotshot is a much more focus efficient mechanic for high offense than Jackhammer. Also its safer, for obvious reasons.
Broadsides can be situationally useful for an extra boosted pow15+pow21.

Finally, I enjoy bart because his feat benefits Galleon greatly, usually giving him an extra turn of clear skies to shoot and run around.
The damage and kill count I have wracked up on him in casters, colossals, infantry, and heavies has surprised and impressed me.

[Defenstrator]

I'm another MacBain fan. Fortify is gold on this model. Typical turn will be two focus on Galleon, clear out blocking stuff with army and Galleons small cannons, boost to hit and damage, drag and punch, then Jackhammer untill it dies. MacBain normally only likes to run one or two jacks, so this one is great and I'd maybe take a Nomad as well to act as a cheap Energizer missilie.

The Galleon was made for Bart and you can tell. Hot Shot is brutal and once they get close you can Batten Down the Hatches

I am also a fan of it with pMagnus. Sure his feat doesn't work, but his spells all support it really well. Great range on guns, a buff for melee, can make it tougher. I'll have my Renegades and/ or heavy dance around with the feat while the Galleon just lays down the firepower.

The girls I'm less thrilled with. Ashlynn buffs its threat range a bit with Quicken, while Fiona can let you shoot through it or have it shoot through other things. And that's about all.

Damiano feels a step up but just a small one since his spell list feels better at infnatry support, while I'm just not an eMags fan.

[Kite66]

While not the best caster for Galleon but the best warjack for Fiona. She runs jacks less than poorly. What is more scary than a Marnier shooting your caster though a wall of models? The Galleon shooting your caster 2 - 6 times through a wall of models. Also with Roth's Mercy you should easily be able to gum charge lanes to the giant jack. I feel being able to stop charges is better than adding armor to the thing.

[CareyBear]

I just like the fact that this thread has mentioned every human caster for Mercs with good reasons why they can rock Galleon. We have a lot of good casters and they got a great tool to work with.

[TheNoob]

Personally, i kno Ashlynn does very little for Galleon, but i think the Galleon does so much for her. Her feat is really good on the Colossal, so much easier to hit all those ranged attacks/drag.

But i think Galleon does something for her that has always been her weakness, and that is a) high ARM cracking b) protecting her from ranged/getting knockdown (the last by blocking LOS)

I think this is really gonna improve her overall gameplay, though its gonna take some list cutting to get the points.