Who are our A+ Warlocks?

[rahal777]

From what I've heard and read it seems like eMadrak's a pretty good bet, but who are generally considered to be Trolls other go to Warlocks?

[PG_somnicide]

the greatest hits is typically something like:

pgrissel, borka, emadrak, grim, calandra, edoomy if you like beasts, pdoom if you have enough money for tier

still competitive and situationally brilliant:
egrissel, pmadrak, calandra (she is right between), jarl, pdoomy standard

not the best, but still fun and can win on occasion:
gunnbjorn, egrissel (some people hate her)

edit: that being said, we have pretty solid casters all around - none of the truly ZOMG top tier casters, but none of the bottom of the barrel ones either so you can pretty well be safe just picking one you like the model/fluff of and learning how to play it well and how it best supports its force.

[Beckman]

From what I've heard and read it seems like eMadrak's a pretty good bet, but who are generally considered to be Trolls other go to Warlocks?

I think eMadrak is most consistently mentioned as our top warlock. Then people generally mention a 2-3 other warlocks that they think are good. eMaddy is hard to shut down, and really good at attrition based proactive play. He struggles with high DEF, but you can listbuild for that.

Other than that, it's meta-dependant. Grim is very good with certain lists. Calandra can bring a world of pain also.. But I have a special place in my heart for both versions of Hoarluk. Goad isn't nice at all. Especially once Colossals catch on, I think pDoomy is going to be a go-to caster because of the need to strip buffs.

Personally, I'd say:

Tier 1: eMaddy
Tier 1.5: eHoarluk, Grim, pHoarluk*, Calandra
Tier 2: pGrissel, Gunny, eGrissel, pMadrak, Borka

*This is meta-dependant. Only if you need buffs and debuffs stripped.

There are some wicked lists that you can make, even with our tier 2 casters. There's a good guided fire Gunny list running around that won Masters, and a pMadrak beast brick that isn't nice either.. But conceptually I think there's not too much difference between our tier 1.5 and 2 casters.. I don't think we have bad casters, really.. Although I think eMaddy is a bit stronger than the rest. Warpath, Killing Ground, AND Blood Fury with a useful survival mechanism and good melee ability is insane. He can do whatever you need him to...

[Impostor]

Grissel higher than Calandra?
I'd put her on top of II tier at most, if you asked me. But nobody ever asks me, i am always left in my dark corner, painting those blue people... I am digressing, though.
Reasons: her tier list sucks, little warbeast love.


Edit:

Goad isn't nice at all.

Please elaborate.

[Mountain King]

T1: eMadrak and Grim. Grim helps Trolls get around so many of their weaknesses, and his denial feat makes him good vs. everyone.
T2:Borka, pGrissel, Jarl, eDoomie. I'm not convinced Calandra is as good as everyone wants me to believe she is.
T3: All the rest. All the other casters are solid and can be built around. They all can win games some easier than others, but the casters that fall into this category tend to not be seen as Trolls "most" competative casters.

[skurkious]

In my mind our best warlock is Borka. Something about being able to make him def 17 armor 21 in combat just makes me feel all fuzzy in side. And stumbling drunk with the pyg carrier is so much fun.

That said I think our top 3 casters are Grim and the Two Madraks. Grim gives us something no one else in faction does and both Madraks are just solid with great rules.

[Dr. Ewww]

You going to get as many different answers as there are combinations of casters. Imho, it's the draw of Trollbloods. Any caster can be competitive in the right hands, with the right list. I hear what you are saying to that though. You want to know the best! The only thing I can say for certain is that it is NOT Gunnbjorn. But, that's just like my opinion, man.

Edit. That said, Grim is the BEST!

[Beckman]

Goad isn't nice at all.

Please elaborate.

Goad functions a lot like side-step from Molik Karn. Only on all your beasts. Mulg's innate beat-stickiness + STR buff combined with either Fortune, or Wild Aggression and eHoarluk's affinity turns models being near the enemy caster or Jacks into a liability instead of a help for the opposing player.

Passively, it functions to make your opponent have to space his infantry models such as to not allow you to either: Get +3 SPD and trample over small based models, then goad your way over to his caster and kill it. OR trample over his dudes and kill his important jacks on a goad. OR charge his tarpit, goad through it and kill his jacks anyways. Since Mulg and the Dire Trolls have so much excess firepower, these options are a reality.

Rok with Goad lets you take beserk attacks after goading, which is absurd for clearing out infantry combined with Primal and/or Wild Aggression.

In the end, the player is forced to distance his casters and jacks from supporting infantry. Which is a win, really. Even doing so, that makes it hard to counterattack when you have Refuge and can walk backwards after beating his infantry up.. Or when you take out all of his infantry then look at his jacks and beasts and go, "Come here. You know you want to."

[Impostor]

So there has been a misunderstanding, it seems you meant that goad isn't nice to the enemy ;P

[Davian2K5]

So there has been a misunderstanding, it seems you meant that goad isn't nice to the enemy ;P

Goad is one of the most disgustingly awesome abilities, as you can select when to use it, and 2" movement (especially on a reach model) is forever.

If you want to try the true power of Goad, try 2 situations:

1) Rok + Clumped infantry. I've seen a guy who put his infantry (ironfang pikeman wall) too close together, and in one turn with 3 goads Rok munched about 8-9 guys. It cost 3 fury, he Refuged Rok back out so he was in no danger, and the guy also failed his command check for good measure. This is why Rok doesn't have reach; if Rok had reach, he would've done it for one fury. They will never, ever, ever give a beast we have Berserk + Reach because it will quite literally break Doomy. But god I wish they would.

2) Mulg (or heavy of choice) + eDoomy. Friend of mine did the math, lined things up wonderfully; Mulg had a max charge of 12" (axer + feat) + reach for 14" threat, he stayed about 15" back, not realizing Goad, with a few guys scattered in a loose line in front of him... Enough room between guys for Mulg to slip through if the front guy died. Wild Aggression Mulg, charge the front guy for free, slapped him with my fist for the first shot, Goad 2", he was millimeters within Reach. I bought my initial, and then had a subsequent 5 shots to kill... It didn't take that many.

Goad allows threat angles that couldn't otherwise exist; kill a guy or two, and one or two goads can put you on top of a guy that you shouldn't be on. Caster, or jack, or a big solo... Anything like that works.

Your opponents will get smart after a while, but there's only so much you can account for it, quite frankly.

[whitekong]

Goad and rok are stupid good. With primal up he managed to kill 8 swordknights including the officer and a lancer, in one activation. It's so sick I don't even want to play him without one of the doomies.

[cryptomancer]

Grim and Calandra are amazing. I almost never lose when running either of them. Seriously, they're brilliant. STEEP learning curve if you're just starting out with either of them but man, they are so damn tactical!

-crypto

[Phatheadaf]

@ OP...

A complete outside perspective, from somebody who plays against Trolls on the competitive table often, Trolls has the best collection of Warlocks top to bottom in all of Hordes. They can all win at the highest levels, as evidenced by the most recent Masters at Lock n Load. That being said, the Warlocks that I want to see the LEAST across the table in the hands of a good Troll player are: Calandra, eMadrak, and Borka; in that order.

Calandra, to me, is the most underrated Warlock in the game, and has Star-Crossed, which IMHO is the most underrated spell in the game. It can really shut down many mechanics that help remove infantry which, in the case of Trolls, is already hard to remove. The math on Transference, Dark Guidance, and the like doesn't seem to balance this out to the same degree as one would think, and most don't have access to spells, feats, or abilities of that caliber anyway. Her spell list is really top notch and gives her a lot of answers to a lot of things. People who think she's not survivable are likely not taking advantage of all the proper buffs at her disposal. DEF 20 ARM 18 is very attainable, with the ability to move on a missed attack rolls and the obligatory faction buff *Tough*. Truly a brilliant Warlock.

eMadrak and Borka are among the most survivable Warlocks in the game, and really dictate opponent actions in a short space, force you to converge, and require opponents to have a deep understanding of what their passive defenses are to even have a chance to win the game. They both have very solid spell lists that can get a lot done, not to mention both are a blast to play, and have the added bonus of watching your opponent squirm as they walk into right into what you do best, w/o a real idea of how to handle it or get out of it.

That's just my two cents, having only ever sat across the table from them... to much chagrin.

A.

[zor]

EVERY troll caster is strong, its all about who's behind the driver's wheel and the list they are using. Gunnbjorn is pretty underrated as a caster considering guided fire fixes everything about our ranged beasts and he can get the job done...

In my opinion though:
First Tier: Grim, eMadrak, Calandra, Borka
Second Tier: Jarl, pDoomy (even Tier has some rough counters), pGrissel, pMadrak, eDoomy
Third Tier: eGrissel, Gunnbjorn

Given those ratings, I personally prefer playing the Second Tier casters more than the First Tier as they require more trickiness and skill to pull off than just having mechanics to them that allows them to faceroll over other people. eGrissel and Gunnbjorn are by no way bad, but they require the MOST skill to play well.

[Impostor]

Few weeks ago i >almost< survived full out eGaspy's feat with eMadrak. Just 1 last attack of the last bane knight made a difference.

[PG_petegrrrr]

With Colossals and more and more solid ranged options, Calandra's use becomes less and less.
If you can ignore starcrossed, which ranged armies largely can do, her utility starts to fall apart as she is reduced to short range spells and one turn of a decent buff feat.

So far she is our biggest victim of the changing meta. She was significantly better in a world without stormwalls


eMad is very good, eDoomy is good, Borka is good, and grissel is a steamroller monster.

Just below them I would put Grim (good but very predictable and loses a lot of steam after he feats and the attrition starts), pDoomy theme force (expensive but potent), and Jarl.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Given those ratings, I personally prefer playing the Second Tier casters more than the First Tier as they require more trickiness and skill to pull off than just having mechanics to them that allows them to faceroll over other people. eGrissel and Gunnbjorn are by no way bad, but they require the MOST skill to play well.

My opponents play well enough that I can't faceroll them with any casters, regardless of the strength of their mechanics. As near as I can tell, this is common in most metas.

With Colossals and more and more solid ranged options, Calandra's use becomes less and less.
If you can ignore starcrossed, which ranged armies largely can do, her utility starts to fall apart as she is reduced to short range spells and one turn of a decent buff feat.

So far she is our biggest victim of the changing meta. She was significantly better in a world without stormwalls

eMad is very good, eDoomy is good, Borka is good, and grissel is a steamroller monster.

Just below them I would put Grim (good but very predictable and loses a lot of steam after he feats and the attrition starts), pDoomy theme force (expensive but potent), and Jarl.

I disagree that ranged armies can completely ignore Starcrossed, at least not without consequences in the steamroller format. She does tend to rely on dygmies and Nyss a lot however, and is much less survivable without the wall so character restrictions affect her a lot and dygmies hate covering fire while Nyss hate Triangulation, so Stormwall is definitely big trouble for her.

How do you play Grim - do you go all in for assassination? The way I play him he is actually a very strong attrition caster, so I was a little surprised to see you list attrition as a weak point.

I like Grim for the strongest myself, I never feel like I have a solid chance of winning almost any matchup like I do with my Grim list.
After that, I would reach for eMadrak, and probably Borka as rounding out the top tier.

[PG_machine007]

I think this will depend on the person and how they feel about each caster that they play. Sure EMadrak on paper is an A+ but it will be totally on how you use them. For me:

My tier 1: PGrissel, Grim, EMadrak, Borka
My tier 2: Jarl, Calandra, PMadrak
My tier 3: P/EDoomy, Gunny, EGrissel

This is based on my playstyle, experience, and fun factor with each. On paper PGrissel isn't the best caster in the world but some people in my meta are scared when I play her since it usually means I mean business.

However, there are some casters I just suck with or have little experience with. Calandra is one of those I have only recently begun to explore, and Egrissel is next on that list. P/EDoomy just never work for me and I just don't enjoy them as well as some of the other casters. I Know EDoomys a boss, but not for me.

[ZenDruid]

I <3 eDoomie. I like beasts and he likes beasts, we're a match made in heaven.

[Borkasbrewer]

In my mind our best warlock is Borka. Something about being able to make him def 17 armor 21 in combat just makes me feel all fuzzy in side. And stumbling drunk with the pyg carrier is so much fun.

That said I think our top 3 casters are Grim and the Two Madraks. Grim gives us something no one else in faction does and both Madraks are just solid with great rules.

Why only 21? I prefer to make him ARM 23
Earthborne, Jani FTW