Playing against Kormac (Circle)

[Jaradakar]

Hi all,

I don't have very many regular Circle players in my group and have only played against them 3-4 times and 3 of those games were against a more casual player.

So played in a tournament against Kormac, I took Hexeris 2 which honestly I think is a bad match up.

This is my list:

Lord Arbiter Hexeris (*6pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Cyclops Shaman (5pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Titan Sentry (9pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Void Spirit (2pts)
Siege Animantarax (9pts)

This I believe was his list:

Kromac the Ravenous (*4pts)
* Gorax (4pts)
* Feral Warpwolf (9pts)
* Ghetorix (11pts)
* Warpwolf Stalker (10pts)
Shifting Stones (2pts)
* Stone keeper (1pts)
Shifting Stones (2pts)
Stoneward and 5 Woldstalkers (5pts)
Stoneward and 5 Woldstalkers (5pts)
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (Leader and 1 Grunt) (1pts)
Druid Wilder (2pts)
Gallows Grove (1pts)
Gallows Grove (1pts)

Now he had all sorts of teleport in tricks and then would trigger sprint to get back out. He also had the Woldstalkers flank me and start attacking/killing my support (BGBH, Agonizer, etc)

Now I was trying to use locker to the best of my ability and it helped quite a bit (prevented a charge against he Bronzeback). Now after the fact I realize I should try to take out the Warpwolf Stalker (His source of Sprint), but he killed my Siege Animantarax early (my ranged attacks). In retrospect I think my x12 Revers + UA would have been better than my Siege Animantarax and a 2nd Extoler -- but I just got the Siege Animantarax and was wanting to try to speed up the list's playtime.

But overall my question to the community is, how does Skorne best deal with Circles movement tricks? What is the best Skorne Warlock counter to Kormac, is it just a bad match up for Hexeris 2 (I'm thinking it is).

My alt list was:

Tyrant Xerxis (*5pts)
* Basilisk Krea (4pts)
* Cyclops Shaman (5pts)
* Titan Sentry (9pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Cataphract Cetrati (Leader and 5 Grunts) (11pts)
Cataphract Cetrati (Leader and 5 Grunts) (11pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)

Which I think would have done better overall, but still not great due to the lack of range...

[Jaradakar]

If I had to take a guess -- I'd say Makeda 1, Makeda 2), or Zaal w/heavy infantry might all do better against him...

[Jaradakar]

No advice? Personal experiences? Anyone?

[esbad77]

How did the game go. Like where did u lose fights/big turning points. In my experence against circle do what skorne does best and just go all out at ur targets which is really hard cause we are alot slower. Also i almost always try and take out a shifting stone or the ua. Makes them almost useless. And how did the sentery do i feel like its not that good especially for e.hex.

[esbad77]

Also positioning is key vs tele stuff. And i would make thier beasts a high priority cause circle hits really hard but r glass.

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

No advice? Personal experiences? Anyone?

Yes, you went up against a fairly common 'net deck', and there are a few tried and true ways of dealing with it.

Slingers
Extollers
Raider
Rasheth
Sentry

The key is to stop his movement shenanigans dead in his tracks. Both stone units will become useless once you take out a member. The one with the stonekeeper will probably fall out of CMD when you kill the stonekeeper. Slingers are damn good at knocking out rocks. You'll need eyeless sight to knock out the one with stonekeeper. Between press forward and snipe, you should be able to get the majority of your slingers to in range to knock out his teleport tricks. After this, kiss your slingers good bye. Won't serve you anymore in this particular matchup, and you can probably use the souls anyway.

Rasheth kills the Stonekeeper 9/10. Extoller gives Fatty eyeless sight, then Fatty dark rituals a sunder spirit into the stonekeeper, popping him fairly easy. Rasheth also allows you to sunder spirit the stalker. Getting rid of the annoying animi for a turn. Again, I really dig Rasheth. Its really hard to stop him from affecting most parts of the battlefield. Especially with an extoller at his side.

The Sentry is a passive answer to sprint shenanigans but I felt it was worth mentioning anyway. I'd rather be proactive about it and break rocks, kill animi.

Another thing to consider is dealing with warpath. Either 100% ignore it, or get your infantry way out of the "kill box".

[Theripontigonus]

Kromac has Beztial, so channeling sunder spirit shouldnt be getting much of anything done. As far as how to combat it, my main advice would be to screen your beasts with your infantry, and remember the scenario zones. If he has to kill a handfull of nihilators to get to your heavies, you should be able to advance pretty quickly into the control zones without loosing heavies. Another thing to keep in mind, Kromac is usually very vulnerable to shooting since hes on a medium base without any medium infantry to hide him.

[Jaradakar]

The map had a bunch of trenches in the middle which he was able to take.

I did not realize this threat range or that the could double teleport so he was able to kill my siege anim, I did not have it shielded/bubble wrapped as I should have. The fact that I lost it so early really hurt as it was my major range component of the list, plus Extroller + SA would have meant bad things for his stones.

Locker did end up really helping -- it prevented a charge against my Bronzeback from Getorix. It the stopped the warp wolf from getting more that reach distance from the Sentry. But a feral to his back arc, ended up killing him.

I needed to break down some of this trick/kill some beasts sooner and range attacks is what I really needed.

But no arcing, no spells was hurting Hexeris 2 -- I did manage to stay out side his control area early and black spot + savage + train wreak killed a whole unit of Woldstalkers.

Honestly now that I've had time to think about it, just protecting my SA so that it could have got some ranged attacks off would have really helped. Along with killing some stones.

I think if I faced it again I could do much better.

[skillt]

It's late, and I'm about to go to bed, but I'll be back to this thread to help you out! (The Kromac list is mine after all :P)

Will

[PG_lord tyrant watt]

Ive played against this list and watched this list be played numerous times. I feel that its safe to say that the strength of the list lies in the triggering of warpath and the shifting stones.

The Wold Stalkers typically will flank both sides, shooting at infantry and triggering Warpath. You have to be extremely careful with model placement, as a double teleport/Warpath move can come from across the field.

This list also likes to hit and run. Meaning, the Stalkers and Ghetorix like to come in, hit and kill, sprint, Warpath away, and then even teleport to safety.

Now, to make the Circle player play on your terms, you need to kill the shrimp and one stone in each unit. If you can manage to destroy one stone in each unit, you can now play the threat range and beast trade game.

Also, removing the Gorax and Stalker early will help you win the battle. It will also help if you can eliminate their animi.

[Jaradakar]

Yes, that's exactly what he was doing Watt -- tel in kill and the sprint out of range of retaliation.

After the battle I was pretty shocked at how it all went down. The best advice I got after the fact was to kill at least one stone to stop teleporting. Also killing the Stalker if possible as he I the source of sprint -- killing the Druid Wilder as well could help.

[skillt]

Whew! Back :-)

Killing the wilder is super important. It make order of activations a night,are, and pretty much takes lightning strike out of the picture for multiple things per turn. Watt is correct in that removing a stones paramountly important, so if you can do that with either reavers or the siege ana youare on your way to winning the game. Interestingly enough, this list has problems with inhospitable ground, so xerxis is pretty good against it. It also has problems with cetrati, as most of its beasts have to enter the melee range of multiple cetrati and will take free strikes on the way out after killing one, mabe two.

Casters that rely on offensive spells are probably not your best choice as bestial is a crazy good spell, but shooting is very effective, especially with extollers. Shooting down the stalker is not reliable because it has stealth, so this may not really be an option, even with extollers. All in all, I think this list is fairly strong against Skorne. Your two caster options to fight it I think are makeda and xerxis. Both versions of makeda do well as they extend threat and usually bring some shooting to handle stones, xerxis bricks so well that you can probably win by scenario.

Will

[Jaradakar]

Yeah the scenario was the one where there was a zone you needed to control and a flag that if you control the zone it explodes doing POW20 magic damage to those around the flag.

I knew facing circle there was no hope of controlling both, so just marched onto the zone. In short no one was going to score so it became a slug fest.

Hmm yeah that was something I was going to research -- how much path finding does the Kromac list have.

Xerxis and IG might help... then again won't bestial stop IG? Also as far as the reach and Cetrati it seems a smart opponent would just use the Beast with Reach so he'd only engage a single one (maybe two).

[Rynth]

Xerxis and IG might help... then again won't bestial stop IG?

Yes and no.
Once Kromac gets in and catches Xerxis in Bestial then its done. However, if IG is being cast that means it provides 1 turn of stymying the approach, and means Kromac is within 14" of Xerxis. If Kromac is that close how close is the rest of his army? If things are still not close enough then Xerxis can, terrain and scenario permitting, just back up and cast it again trying to draw things in.

Also as far as the reach and Cetrati it seems a smart opponent would just use the Beast with Reach so he'd only engage a single one (maybe two).

If that is the case then, barring teleportation and Warpath based retreats, the charging beast is ~8" from several of the remaining Cetrati. Three Fury'ed, Feated, charging Cetrati will tear a good chunk out of almost any beast.

[Gator_Dave]

My friend and I played a doubles game today against Circle (eBauldur) and minions (pigs Carver).
My pal was using Skorne (eHexeris), and I was using minions (gators). I had Mealok, and I handled
Lord Caver. I did almost lose my Wrastler and bull snapper in the process, by Mealok was okay.
I look across the table to see how my partner was doing and he has his Titan Bronzeback and Gladiator
in combat with two big *** stone guys. I think one was called Megalith, the other had to huge hammer fists.
The rock guys had just knocked out both my homies Titans, which left me like ***!? And my friend did almost no
damage with two Titans! The rock dudes had plus 3 armor with one of Bauldurs spells, but still. My friend got the charges off
on them. What the heck, do the Titans suck? He said he didn't like using the Bronzeback. It was a mangled metal/ Tooth and claw, maybe thats just not good for them. Idk, any advice I can give my friend for starting Skorne? And any advice for fighting Baulders broken stone jank?

[Rynth]

I look across the table to see how my partner was doing and he has his Titan Bronzeback and Gladiator
in combat with two big *** stone guys. I think one was called Megalith, the other had to huge hammer fists.
The rock guys had just knocked out both my homies Titans, which left me like ***!? And my friend did almost no
damage with two Titans! The rock dudes had plus 3 armor with one of Bauldurs spells, but still. My friend got the charges off
on them. What the heck, do the Titans suck? He said he didn't like using the Bronzeback. It was a mangled metal/ Tooth and claw, maybe thats just not good for them. Idk, any advice I can give my friend for starting Skorne? And any advice for fighting Baulders broken stone jank?

Your friend suffered a bad match-up in a points bracket Hexeris2 doesn't favor. Baldur2's list probably didn't have any living models or low armored models which Hexeris2's abilities/spells need for fully efficency and he had to do it without his own support warriors.
Three extra armor might not sound like much, but it take a Wold Guardian(hammer fist guy) to ARM 23, IIRC. That means the Bronzeback was at dice -5 against it. Average rolls has a Bronzeback only doing about 17 damage, and the Gladiator might do about 10, which won't kill a Guardian. Megalith is only slightly less durable under that spell and, IIRC, heals himself so in some ways is worse.
Increase point size to allow the inclusion of Beast Handlers and Agonizers; they'll kill more and live longer especially if the warlock running them isn't losing abilities due to the opponent's army construction.