[Colossals Spoiler] Is it Voyle on this picture ?

[Halabaloo]

I sincerely appologize. A good percentage opf my gaming group has it, so I just assumed. I dont go to the LGS that often. That is my fault. I AM a jerkoff, but not for this reason, completely and sincerely a mistake.

I'm sorry about that, I was kind of dickish. I was really irritated with the spoiler and flew off the handle.

BUT so we don't digress too far off topic, Voyle would kill Vinter because Voyle doesn't believe he can die, so thusly he can't. He was as close to a god as a mortal could get I feel from everything I had read on him.

[Halabaloo]

If you spoil crunch, you are worshiped as a god.

What is this crunch you speak of????

[Alzer]

Crunch = Rules. (i.e. stat spoilers)

Voyle would win because Monk/Cleric > Fighter.

Or just...Groundwork, Perfect Balance, Weaponmaster on two blessed magical weapons. Probably around Def17 Arm 17. Immune to weapon damage etc...

[Hashmal]

Learned a new term today.

[Halabaloo]

Learned a new term today.

Same here. Heh, immune to weapon damage.

[Soulblighter]

Too bad Voyle wasn't immune to Redheaded Stepchildren.

[Matthaeus]

Wondered why someone edited the title like that...

Yeah, crunch as opposed to fluff (hard and soft ?).

[Cyber-Leader-3]

I am all for bringing Voyle back - just not as a warcaster. I think he'd make a great solo. Have the Harbinger realize they need him again to stop some huge terrifying warrior or something, so she and the High Reclaimer get together to pull his soul back from Urcaen and transplant it in a new body. The main problem would be that he might be too good statwise. Perhaps his time being dead has weakened him a bit.
And while we're at it, make Vinter a solo too!
(Note: I haven't read the fluff, so something I just wrote is probably wrong. Also, I am looking for all the old expansion books so I can catch up to date. Anyone now where I can still buy them [apart from Ebay, of course {finally, a chance to use triple brackets!}])? Hopefully I'll forget what I read on this thread before I buy the book.

[jandrese]

Same here. Heh, immune to weapon damage.

I'm thinking more something like:

Blade Grasp: When a model in this model's LOS declares a melee attack against this model. This model may immediately make a melee attack targeting the attacking model. If this model hits, the enemy model's melee attack automatically misses.

Oh, and of course he has 360 LOS and like MAT 9 or 10. Probably no Reach though, so if the other people knew how it worked they might have been able to get around it. Maybe he has something like Evasive though.

Anyway, this would be great because it would justify why Stryker needed to use Providence to hit Voyle--auto-hits trump auto-misses!

[Themainmenoth]

Actually, one man can hold an entire city. That man is Voyle. He was literally invincible until Harby decided otherwise. He couldn't be injured by any attack or force and there was no defensive mechanism or technique that could stand up to him... the best mechanika and best effort in Immoren could only delay him long enough to safely retreat.

Seacat's talked about this until he's blue in the face, but ultimately, the Harbinger made the call. The Harbinger is NOT Menoth. She has a direct line to him but she is an individual force who has her own aspirations, and not everything she says can be presumed to be the immediate and direct will of Menoth. However, because of her special status and connection, when she makes a decision it is presumed to be in accord with the will of Menoth. She did not stop Voyle from firing on the wall, though she easily could have. She voiced her disagreement and allowed him to do as he wished. When Vilmon confronted Voyle, she chose to save Vilmon's life, but even then she did not choose to strike down Voyle-- as, again, she surely could have. Voyle's reaction to her act of martyrdom convinced her that it was Menoth's will that he be removed as Hierarch, and she then empowered Stryker to do so.

Notably the reason Stryker couldn't kill Voyle prior to this was that he couldn't hit him-- Voyle's skills in combat were so far out of Stryker's league (and, really, basically anyone on Immoren's) that he couldn't deliver a blow. But Providence never misses.

The thing to understand here that a lot of people miss is that the decision to remove Voyle was not a strategic play on the part of Menoth or the Harbinger, it was not n-dimensional chess to preserve the Protectorate. It was a simple chain of cause and effect, leading to Harbinger's belief that Voyle needed to be removed. Menoth is not a kind and merciful God and the simple act of firing on those refugees was not sufficient cause to remove him-- Severius has done much worse and retains his title. Nor was it intended to save the Protectorate, as Menoth's will led to much more suicidal attacks launched in prior days. It was Harbinger's call, and while we can presume that she is suffused with the power of Menoth and in tune with His agenda, she does not have a 24/7 phone line open to him to consult before she does anything.

It's a common belief to me that since the Harbinger is much the story of Jesus (menoth is much like the jewish god in many ways, played to the extreme) that Menoth himself will calm down due to her humbling human nature. If you compare The bible and Menoths lore, you'll see uncanny similarities, I'm personally Jewish, but not a very Religious man, but that doesn't mean I can't see menoth's stories influence. May I remind you though, Menoth wields both a Sword and a shield, the Sword is to strike down his enemies, but his Shield is to protect his fallowers, So is the oath of the Paladins, and it would seem to me, that Voyle was taken down FOR trying to kill Innocent Followers as Menoth wanted to shield them from this madman.

[Outbreak]

I'm not gonna try and pretend to be a fluff expert, so maybe im wrong, but i thought menoth was mostly indifferent about that sorta crap?

[Themainmenoth]

If you ever read the fluff about The Avatar, It's controlled DIRECTLY by Menoth himself, and you will be hard pressed to read anything about how the Avatar has done anything to followers in it's way, It was the main reason for the Win the harbinger had over Cryx out side Khador, a story in which Menoth warns the Harbinger to protect because that location of Khador had Menites in it.

[Terraneaux]

Voyle was killed by the Harbinger via her Cygnaran proxy, not by Menoth.

[Themainmenoth]

Voyle was killed by the Harbinger via her Cygnaran proxy, not by Menoth.

however I think If Manoth Disagreed with her, she would have been punished over it in some way.

[Exemplar's_Gaze]

Let's be real here. If Voyle had won, there would be NO Cygnar. They had to kill him off.

[Bishop84]

Or just...Groundwork, Perfect Balance, Weaponmaster on two blessed magical weapons. Probably around Def17 Arm 17. Immune to weapon damage etc...

How do you figure he has more Armor than most of our 'casters? He's mostly robes, and even if they're blessed he shouldn't be more than a point over Amon. I would argue the same ARM as Amon as Amon obviously has more more muscle mass.

Oddity just occured to me... Amon isn't wearing Warcaster armor, how does he have a power field?

[Mod_Gemini]

Let's be real here. If Voyle had won, there would be NO Cygnar. They had to kill him off.

Yeah, he deus ex machinaed himself right out of the story, but not before we got to read some sweet words about him tearing Ironclads apart with his bare hands.

[Mod_Gemini]

How do you figure he has more Armor than most of our 'casters? He's mostly robes, and even if they're blessed he shouldn't be more than a point over Amon. I would argue the same ARM as Amon as Amon obviously has more more muscle mass.

Oddity just occured to me... Amon isn't wearing Warcaster armor, how does he have a power field?

Technically Harby isn't either, she's got no vents on her back. She runs stuff on pure divinity, Amon runs his jacks on ninja juice.

[Bishop84]

Heh, Harbinger I never questioned because of what she is. Amon was weird, but ninja juice works for me.

[Blackraine]

How do you figure he has more Armor than most of our 'casters? He's mostly robes, and even if they're blessed he shouldn't be more than a point over Amon. I would argue the same ARM as Amon as Amon obviously has more more muscle mass.

Oddity just occured to me... Amon isn't wearing Warcaster armor, how does he have a power field?

Given that he was a (theoretically) CR 35 monk or somesuch in the old IKRPG rules, I'm betting he had quite a bit of DR and a dodge AC in the 40-somethings... so he was probably 18 DEF/17 ARM with 9 FOC... or something like that.

[Soulblighter]

Voyle was killed by the Harbinger via her Cygnaran proxy, not by Menoth.

100% agree. Harbinger offed Voyle herself. Menoth didnt tell her to do it. Whenever the Harbinger speaks to Menoth, theres some real poltergeist crap that goes on, and there was no evidence of that when she gave Stryker her sword. And no Harbinger wouldnt have been punished for it because Menoth doesnt care about one man, even Voyle, hes only interested in the bigger picture which is winning his war with the devourer.

[TheSanityAssassin]

So really, what should have happened here, is that Voyle should have been encased in some kind of magic bubble and teleported to Cryx to go and fight Toruk directly. Now THAT would be interesting.

[Rinion]

100% agree. Harbinger offed Voyle herself. Menoth didnt tell her to do it. Whenever the Harbinger speaks to Menoth, theres some real poltergeist crap that goes on, and there was no evidence of that when she gave Stryker her sword. And no Harbinger wouldnt have been punished for it because Menoth doesnt care about one man, even Voyle, hes only interested in the bigger picture which is winning his war with the devourer.

Couple of important quotes from PPS_Doug

The situation is filled with complexities and subtleties and gets to the very mind of Menoth, the Creator, which is unknowable. Hence the controversy, hence the "difficult theological question" being asked about. If it was clear and obvious and perfectly understandable, there would be no theological difficulties. That said, there is a perfectly internally consistent logic to what transpired. You can discern quite a bit by closely reading the related passages in Legends, in particular looking at the interactions between the Harbinger and Voyle. There is no clear consensus that Voyle specifically did anything "against Menoth." The drama unfolding between these three individuals (Voyle, the Harbinger, and Vilmon) involved each one fulfilling their role as they saw it, obeying their own rigid and uncompromising codes of behavior based on their divinely sanctioned purpose within the theocracy. The Harbinger acted as she must, Hierarch Voyle acted as he believed he must, and so did Dartan Vilmon, each in their own way.

There was no command by Menoth for Voyle not to enter Caspia; prophecies are not commands. This has mistakenly been taken as the root cause of what transpired with the Harbinger, but the text does not bear that out. The Harbinger's actions appear to have been rooted in the long term health of the faith and its likelihood of bringing in the greatest number of eventual converts. Voyle was warned that misfortune would come to a hierarch who entered Caspia before the city was united. Some have taken this statement combined with the Harbinger's actions to imply a self-fulfilling prophecy, but it could also be the Harbinger foresaw how the conquest into Caspia would tempt Voyle into acts of hubris and make him unable to make the best decision once the hostages were revealed. Once again, the Harbinger is the only one in possession of the facts. It is not my place to answer things which are mysteries to most of the inhabitants of our setting. If something is only known to the Harbinger, or Nyssor, or Menoth, or the Devourer Wurm, or Toruk, I'm not going to tell you what it is.

Any way you look at it, if this was an easily answered question, there would be no theological complications.

And this one!

While Providence was an important part of the final conclusion of that fight, due to Hierarch Voyle's skill, Warder is correct that the more important element of this entire exchange happened when Hierarch Voyle saw the Harbinger's blood on his own hands. This shattered the absolute faith that was the cornerstone of his power; he was unable to reconcile her actions to save Vilmon with his own beliefs regarding his personal authority and the righteousness of his cause. This led to a loss of control. It had nothing to do with obedience to the Harbinger. The Harbinger has no specific authority over the hierarch, except as a channel for the words of Menoth, who must be obeyed. It is always significant when the Harbinger and the hierarch are not in agreement. These sorts of disagreements will usually represent differences in the interpretation of doctrine, the True Law, or the will of Menoth.

It might be worth reading the text again more closely, paying particular attention to the actions chosen by those involved and their consequences. Never once did the Harbinger give the hierarch any orders or deny his authority. Vilmon's own defiance was rooted in adhering to his code by saving the lives of the faithful and he was clearly willing to accept the consequences of this action. Rather than picking any other method to intervene, the Harbinger chose to offer her own flesh in the place of Vilmon's, likely knowing this might reach Voyle in a way other actions would not. Unfortunately due to his pride, Voyle reacted with misdirected anger, unable to perceive any of his actions as flawed, and refused to turn from the course he was set upon.

Aaaaand this one, too:

She did not in fact kill [Voyle], nor was she simply ensuring that a prophecy came to pass. It was the hierarch's right to kill Vilmon for his disobedience even as it was the Harbinger's right to preserve his life and those on the wall. Voyle was killed by a Lord Commander of the Cygnaran Army, but the hierarch had the opportunity to avoid this death if he had understood the lesson the Harbinger offered him by the example of her own self sacrifice. It might have been he was incapable of understanding.

**Edit**
Another interesting one, for those interested! Doug really needs to be locked in a room and forced to put all this stuff and musings in one place!

What transpired in Legends was an extremely significant clash of stations and interpretations of purpose. We had several major aspects of the Protectorate at an impasse. This confrontation had to do with the authority and responsibilities of the hierarchy, the Order of the Wall, and the Harbinger. You need to read it again and try to remove your biases prompted by your loathing for Stryker. The true conflict takes place when Dartan Vilmon does what he feels he must to stay true to his obligations as a member of the Order of the Wall. You will notice as he does so he accepts that he will most likely die for this. He knows the hierarch has the right to slay him.

At the same time, the Harbinger has the absolute power to save the lives of the faithful, and can do so without being questioned on her choices. The Harbinger intervened as proof that she, as the chosen prophet of Menoth, places value in the Order of the Wall and their mission. She was not willing to let Vilmon expire. This is symbolic of shielding the Order of the Wall itself. She did not do so by stopping Voyle. She did so by offering her flesh for Vilmon's. This was a lesson that the destruction of the Order of the Wall would also be the destruction of the Harbinger. Voyle's largest mistake was not in putting the people in peril on the wall, but in failing to recognize the lesson of the Harbinger's intervention. It was his reaction which was emotional, not hers, and it was at this point that his absolute conviction in the rightness of his actions faltered, and his ability to perfectly manifest Menoth's power also failed.

The exact nature of the Harbinger within the Protectorate hierarchy is not an entirely comfortable matter. As she speaks for Menoth, she cannot be reprimanded or second-guessed. Yet at the same time, in every legal sense, the hierarch's will is absolute and his orders cannot be questioned. When these two entities are in agreement, everything works fine. When they are not, it created a paradox in authority for anyone below them. The hierarch and the Synod have all recognized the Harbinger's legitimacy. At the same time, she is still a person and is not manifesting Menoth's will at all times. She is at all times filled with the god's power and has been given unique gifts of perspective and insight that transcend the mortal. But it is not entirely clear to anyone in the Protectorate how often she is acting from her own inner wisdom and insight and when she is obeying the more explicitly stated instructions of Menoth.

There is no understating the impact of the Harbinger on the current state of affairs in the setting. She has literally transformed the Iron Kingdoms already, in a few short years. Other factions are terrified of her. Within the Protectorate she is beloved, but the scrutators are not entirely comfortable with her presence. The priest caste has long been in charge of the fate of the faith on Caen, and the Harbinger represents an unusual complication to this, one that is not perfectly understood or easily reconciled.

[Themainmenoth]

That was a pretty good read, And it's proof that Menoth is going through a Transformation. The shear existence of the Harbinger and what she personally stands for is much more a reflection of the paladins and not the exemplars and scrutators (which clearly has a root to scrutinize, which though means "To examine closely," it is also commonly used in a negative fashion), It's likely however she respects all the branches and feels all should be up held, but her personal bias has always been towards Vilmon, maybe her human side even loves him, though being a god-like voice of menoth means she can never love any one person, and has no time to ever think of a personal relationship. Either way it is likely that, weather or not she means too, she will likely split the church of menoth once she is gone, one side of followers will commit to the old ways of doing things, and others will make a church that worships both entities equally, (again like God and Jesus, in this case Menoth and the Harbinger) and a new sub faction of the menoth religion will likely be born, most likely one that is a little be less strict and punishing.

[MetaphoricDragon]

That was a pretty good read, And it's proof that Menoth is going through a Transformation. The shear existence of the Harbinger and what she personally stands for is much more a reflection of the paladins and not the exemplars and scrutators (which clearly has a root to scrutinize, which though means "To examine closely," it is also commonly used in a negative fashion), It's likely however she respects all the branches and feels all should be up held, but her personal bias has always been towards Vilmon, maybe her human side even loves him, though being a god-like voice of menoth means she can never love any one person, and has no time to ever think of a personal relationship. Either way it is likely that, weather or not she means too, she will likely split the church of menoth once she is gone, one side of followers will commit to the old ways of doing things, and others will make a church that worships both entities equally, (again like God and Jesus, in this case Menoth and the Harbinger) and a new sub faction of the menoth religion will likely be born, most likely one that is a little be less strict and punishing.

I don't think that would end up being the case, In the end I don't think their docterine is really all that different. Harbringer herself recently abandoned a slew of (dirty heathen) Morrowans when they could not honestly convert to Menoth. Instead I think the main difference is pride, ego, and power lust within the priest caste.

[Murkhadh]

Actually, one man can hold an entire city. That man is Voyle. He was literally invincible until Harby decided otherwise. He couldn't be injured by any attack or force and there was no defensive mechanism or technique that could stand up to him... the best mechanika and best effort in Immoren could only delay him long enough to safely retreat.

Seacat's talked about this until he's blue in the face, but ultimately, the Harbinger made the call. The Harbinger is NOT Menoth. She has a direct line to him but she is an individual force who has her own aspirations, and not everything she says can be presumed to be the immediate and direct will of Menoth. However, because of her special status and connection, when she makes a decision it is presumed to be in accord with the will of Menoth. She did not stop Voyle from firing on the wall, though she easily could have. She voiced her disagreement and allowed him to do as he wished. When Vilmon confronted Voyle, she chose to save Vilmon's life, but even then she did not choose to strike down Voyle-- as, again, she surely could have. Voyle's reaction to her act of martyrdom convinced her that it was Menoth's will that he be removed as Hierarch, and she then empowered Stryker to do so.

Notably the reason Stryker couldn't kill Voyle prior to this was that he couldn't hit him-- Voyle's skills in combat were so far out of Stryker's league (and, really, basically anyone on Immoren's) that he couldn't deliver a blow. But Providence never misses.

The thing to understand here that a lot of people miss is that the decision to remove Voyle was not a strategic play on the part of Menoth or the Harbinger, it was not n-dimensional chess to preserve the Protectorate. It was a simple chain of cause and effect, leading to Harbinger's belief that Voyle needed to be removed. Menoth is not a kind and merciful God and the simple act of firing on those refugees was not sufficient cause to remove him-- Severius has done much worse and retains his title. Nor was it intended to save the Protectorate, as Menoth's will led to much more suicidal attacks launched in prior days. It was Harbinger's call, and while we can presume that she is suffused with the power of Menoth and in tune with His agenda, she does not have a 24/7 phone line open to him to consult before she does anything.

There is a direct quote from the Harbinger in this story something to the effect of "Menoth calls for him to come home" as in Menoth wants him dead.

[Rinion]

There is a direct quote from the Harbinger in this story something to the effect of "Menoth calls for him to come home" as in Menoth wants him dead.

Its the quote in my Signarture =P

As for abandoning the Morrowans, it was for their own good! Honest!

[Matthaeus]

Instead I think the main difference is pride, ego, and power lust within the priest caste.

Worry not, Feora will bring change !
Oh, wait...

(I approve of your sig, btw )

[Themainmenoth]

I don't think that would end up being the case, In the end I don't think their docterine is really all that different. Harbringer herself recently abandoned a slew of (dirty heathen) Morrowans when they could not honestly convert to Menoth. Instead I think the main difference is pride, ego, and power lust within the priest caste.

If you really read that a loud, She openly weeps that she cannot take them with her, as she feels Morrowan has corrupted there souls. I do not believe she Hates Morrowan, she just Hates that he is worshiped OVER menoth, If someone where to Worship menoth but follow the teachings of Morrowan without worshiping him, I think she would accept them with open arms.

[Terraneaux]

She did not in fact kill [Voyle],

This always made me snicker. Since Voyle wouldn't have been killed without her intervention... she actually did. Moreover, she did it in a way that threatened the integrity of the Protectorate itself.

If you really read that a loud, She openly weeps that she cannot take them with her, as she feels Morrowan has corrupted there souls. I do not believe she Hates Morrowan, she just Hates that he is worshiped OVER menoth, If someone where to Worship menoth but follow the teachings of Morrowan without worshiping him, I think she would accept them with open arms.

If she really cared about them she would have killed them to prevent their souls from being captured by Cryx.

The Harbinger is incapable of winning hearts and minds and playing the politics game needed to win in the world of man, like Voyle and now Severius are capable off.

[Silverstar843]

I always hated Voyle, even back in the day. Oddly enough I also despised Sevy until he became Hierarch. Too bad I didn't see this thread earlier:

Pictured above: Lord Commander Coleman Stryker and Hierarch Garrick Voyle (pictured in his clown costume).

[Themainmenoth]

To her, I'm assuming that their souls were corrupted by marrow, and though cryx is no better, it is much the same in her eyes. She however did not want to kill them for though they Likely died to the Cryx, She can't be the one to kill them, for however corrupted, she still pitied them, and couldn't "WATCH" them die. She is by no means perfect, I think PP wanted to make that clear that she isn't, but I still think she "Wants" to do the right thing, but also be faithful to Menoth, this will at times cause conflict on soul.

[Rinion]

To her, I'm assuming that their souls were corrupted by marrow, and though cryx is no better, it is much the same in her eyes. She however did not want to kill them for though they Likely died to the Cryx, She can't be the one to kill them, for however corrupted, she still pitied them, and couldn't "WATCH" them die. She is by no means perfect, I think PP wanted to make that clear that she isn't, but I still think she "Wants" to do the right thing, but also be faithful to Menoth, this will at times cause conflict on soul.

I could go and find the post by Doug, but its basically that, if she had saved them, nothing would change. Maybe a couple would truely convert to Menoth, but the Morrowan priest would never, and will be able to convince many that it was through Morrow they survived. However, by letting them die, they will see that their current faith surves them no purpose, and their Morrowan priest and blifes will not save them. At this point, they will consider Harbingers words and the power of Menoth she has, and more will then convert than would have in life. Thus the greater ammount of souls will reach The City of Man and help in Menoths war in Urcaen, which, really, is better in the grand scheme of the future of the world.

[Themainmenoth]

I could go and find the post by Doug, but its basically that, if she had saved them, nothing would change. Maybe a couple would truely convert to Menoth, but the Morrowan priest would never, and will be able to convince many that it was through Morrow they survived. However, by letting them die, they will see that their current faith surves them no purpose, and their Morrowan priest and blifes will not save them. At this point, they will consider Harbingers words and the power of Menoth she has, and more will then convert than would have in life. Thus the greater ammount of souls will reach The City of Man and help in Menoths war in Urcaen, which, really, is better in the grand scheme of the future of the world.

And killing them out right would have made them Symbols of Menoths cruelty if an outside party witnessed it. Though what Terraneaux said was basically leaving them for Cryx meant their souls would never make it to Urcaen because they would have their souls captured by Cryx Liches. But no Proof of that happens either. The point of adding that to the story was to show the reader that Harbinger isn't a saint all the time, and that she is human and has to make some very hard decisions. She wants to due what's right, but all the right answers aren't as easy to see as some may think.

[Themainmenoth]

I had a very long argument about this part of that story with someone who was trying to convince me it made her a non-menoth hating *****, and I was trying to let him know she isn't so blind to see every non-menite as dirty heathens and aren't worth her time of day, She's more close to a living god any mortal man is on Caen, and many others in her Position wouldn't even give the Marrowans her time of day to try and make their claim for safety, it isn't like a rabbi from my local temple can just walk up to the pope to ask for some help, he'd be forced to talk to someone of much lesser authority and yet when the marrowan priest came up to make his case, The harbinger herself spoke with him, This shows she is willing to speak to a common man no differently then a king, that take some very strong will power to stay that humble with that much power available to you.

[Soulblighter]

There is a direct quote from the Harbinger in this story something to the effect of "Menoth calls for him to come home" as in Menoth wants him dead.

Yeah but just because she said that doesnt mean it was true. Harbinger definitely had her own motives for doing what she did.

I still maintain that Stryker killing Voyle is the worst piece of fluff ever written though...