rok or earthborn

[Gdead909]

Well after my previous thread I have decided to run an EDoomy list. I have mulg, mauler, slag, pyre, axer, impaler, but as the title says who do u think I should pick up?

[PG_Viper114]

Both, but as for which one first, I'd say an Earthborn, since it's great with it's Adaptive rule and Elemental Communion rule.

[Mountain King]

I love both of them, but if eDoomie is your caster and the models you have listed there the EBDT is the way to go.

Get Rok when you can tho, as he is a great beast as well, and can replace the Mauler in the list.

[EvilFuzzyDoom]

Earthborn will serve just about any caster well, while Rok seems to be slightly less versatile.

[Lost Effect]

Earthborn first, you will love having pathfinder on the guy all of the time.

[Largi]

Neither.

The list you lined up is very similar to my Doomy2 build.

Doomy2
- Mulg
- Mauler
- Axer
- Bomber
- Pyre

Janissa Stonetide
Max Krielstone + Stone Scribe Elder
3x Whelps.

Once you get used to the list you can be both powerfully offensive, and extremely durable.
I always start with 1 Unit of Whelps on the board, and you get very used to placing Whelps to block charge lanes.
The Bomber gives you unexpected threat potential along with the ability to weaken things on the way in. Not forgetting a slight bit of threat vs things that hound Doomy2 like Saeryn.


If you really need to choose between Rok and EBDT I'ld take the EBDT.

[wulfmojo]

EBDT for the toolbox and assassin potential. EBDT animus + Janissa is great for making a beast brick or improving Doomy's survivability, where the Earthborn himself makes a great assasination missile. Activate next to forest, add Rush, add eDoomy's Feat, launch 15.5" at enemy caster. Laugh.

That said Rok offers an alternative to the Bomber in an eDoomy list in terms of infantry clearance, with the added bonus of being able to smash things up pretty well in combat. Plus I really want to see what happens when you add Primal to an assassination run with the EBDT or Mulg. So I vote (and will shortly be running) both.

[Beckman]

If you are going to run the KSB+SSE / EBDT /Janissa loadout, then you need the EBDT, obviously.

Otherwise, RoK is superior to the EBDT with eDoomie because of his interactions with Beserk and Goad. Wild Aggression + Beserk + Goad is spectacular.

Edit: The below is what I generally run... As you can see... I sacrifice Rage in order to bring RoK, but I keep the EBDT / Janissa /KSB wall.

Hoarluk Doomshaper, Rage of Dhunia (*6pts)
* Troll Axer (6pts)
* Earthborn Dire Troll (10pts)
* Mulg the Ancient (12pts)
* Ršk (11pts)
* Trollkin Runebearer (2pts)
Krielstone Bearer and 3 Stone Scribes (3pts)
* Krielstone Stone Scribe Elder (1pts)
Trollkin Fennblades (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Janissa Stonetide (3pts)

is what I would run.

[Gdead909]

Ok what about for a 35 point list in paticular? I can afford one or the other.

[DrFish]

EBDT is the far superior choice, IMO. Having berserk attacks is good, don't get me wrong, but with a guaranteed wall with Janissa, doomie's survivability gets a really good boost without costing him any fury (free dire animus). Plus, as mentioned, Mulg starting next to a forest and the feat turn is hilarious, especially if he was hit by an attack the previous turn. Granted, you can get that with an Axer (with pathfinder), but if you end up next to an obstruction he can carry that armor into your opponents next turn if you don't kill the warnoun.

People under estimate the feat turn trample assassination run all the time.

[Beckman]

I would agree: If you have the cash to get / already own KSB+SSE AND JANISSA then go with EBDT. Otherwise, Rok is my strong preference. If you can only afford Janissa & one heavy I'd still get Rok, imo.

[PG_LunarSol]

I don't even care for Janissa that much with eDoomie. She's nice, but character restrictions have led me to liking some other options first. Both her and the Krielstone just dont' get enough value for me with eDoomie. Things get flung way out of their range way too soon for them to really do much.

As for the heavy showdown, EBDT is definitely the beast you'll use the most across the game, but I almost never take him with eDoomie. Rok is just outright amazing with eDoomie, good enough at clearing infantry that I've regularly considered replacing the Bomber in my list.

[Beckman]

I don't even care for Janissa that much with eDoomie. She's nice, but character restrictions have led me to liking some other options first. Both her and the Krielstone just dont' get enough value for me with eDoomie. Things get flung way out of their range way too soon for them to really do much.

As for the heavy showdown, EBDT is definitely the beast you'll use the most across the game, but I almost never take him with eDoomie. Rok is just outright amazing with eDoomie, good enough at clearing infantry that I've regularly considered replacing the Bomber in my list.

That Rok has pushed out the EBDT to the third beast slot for me, and it's usually between EBDT/Mauler at that point.

[Gdead909]

Yes I own the full KSB+SSE and janissa. So EBDT for overall but Rok with Edoomy is the consensus?

[PG_petegrrrr]

There is only one answer, and that answer is "You run them together, like peanut butter and jelly made out of murder".

Seriously, never have two trollblood beasts worked together as well as those two.

"Hey Rok, would you like some speed 7 to and higher arm to go with that assualt and those relatively low wounds?"

"Why certainly, and here, are you about to go in for a caster/crucial heavy kill? How you would you like +2 mat and +2 pow?"

"Why thank you good sir"

"No, No. Thank YOU good sir"

And then they put on pith helmets and talk about the Boer Wars.

[Beckman]

Yes I own the full KSB+SSE and janissa. So EBDT for overall but Rok with Edoomy is the consensus?

Something like that...

I'm with Petergrrr on this one... Owning both is what you should shoot for when you get the cash. It's hard to be so simplistic about it.. I tend to prefer EBDT with Janissa/KSB, and RoK when using a Bomber, or a caster with Goad. Otherwise, I feel like it's a toss-up. EBDT might be a tad more generic.

[Goris]

Pete has the right of it, but I think the innate pathfinder of the Earthborn really is what sells it for me in an either or situation. Not only that but having an animus you can use on anything it nice...

[Mountain King]

That Rok has pushed out the EBDT to the third beast slot for me, and it's usually between EBDT/Mauler at that point.

eDoomies Holy Trinity has become Mulg, EBDT, and Rok. This should never have been questioned, once Rok came onto the scene it was as simple as replacing the Mauler. Much like fellcalled Tuffaloes, Primaled +Wild Agression on Rok or Mulg can even clear out droves of IF'd Kayazy Assassins.

[PG_LunarSol]

eDoomies Holy Trinity has become Mulg, EBDT, and Rok. This should never have been questioned, once Rok came onto the scene it was as simple as replacing the Mauler. Much like fellcalled Tuffaloes, Primaled +Wild Agression on Rok or Mulg can even clear out droves of IF'd Kayazy Assassins.

Prior to Rok I always felt kind of naked without a Bomber, so I'd usually run Bomber/Mauler/Mulg. With Rok, I feel far less need for the Bomber, which has left me with Rok/Mauler/Mulg, but I'm kind of starting to realize without the Bomber, I don't need the Mauler that badly, so... yeah, Rok/EBDT/Mulg.

[Beckman]

Even outside of eDoomy, I like Primal for killing enemy Casters +2MAT is so handy for hitting DEF14.

[PG_thegreatblah]

eDoomies Holy Trinity has become Mulg, EBDT, and Rok. This should never have been questioned, once Rok came onto the scene it was as simple as replacing the Mauler. Much like fellcalled Tuffaloes, Primaled +Wild Agression on Rok or Mulg can even clear out droves of IF'd Kayazy Assassins.

Mauler still has his place in that he is a better damage buffer and I don't always want my beast to frenzy. But Rok's animus is pretty great when you really need a hard MAT buff for a beast.

[Largi]

I always thought the Holy Trinity was Mulg - Mauler - Axer.
Didn't know EBDT even got a slot.

[RevolverAdamska]

Earthborn very nice heavy warbeast!

[Beckman]

I always thought the Holy Trinity was Mulg - Mauler - Axer.
Didn't know EBDT even got a slot.

Not for eDoomy it's not.

EBDT is included primarily because of:
1. Native Pathfinder
2. Animus gives +2 ARM while you're next to a wall

KSB+SSE and Janissa give you a ARM22-23 wall of dudes, which is stupid annoying.

[PG_petegrrrr]

In all honesty, the axer doesn't really have a slot in most of our lists in mark 2.

For 6 points, he's too pillow fisted to hurt heavies, and his animus is to valuable to really commit him to combat (since the animus is the only real reason to bring him, and having him die negates that), which means he's six points for a light beast animus battery, and that's not very useful to most players. Even if you do commit him to melee, all he's really good at is killing troopers with low def, which is something we do fine already.

The EBDT however can hit heavies as hard or harder than they can hit him, and has an animus that can also be a speed and arm buff. He's like the axer, only he can actually do stuff as well and can take a beating and keep on coming.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

In all honesty, the axer doesn't really have a slot in most of our lists in mark 2.

For 6 points, he's too pillow fisted to hurt heavies, and his animus is to valuable to really commit him to combat (since the animus is the only real reason to bring him, and having him die negates that), which means he's six points for a light beast animus battery, and that's not very useful to most players. Even if you do commit him to melee, all he's really good at is killing troopers with low def, which is something we do fine already.

The EBDT however can hit heavies as hard or harder than they can hit him, and has an animus that can also be a speed and arm buff. He's like the axer, only he can actually do stuff as well and can take a beating and keep on coming.

Glad to know I wasn't off base with my opinion on the axer. Just too many points. Rush is a great animus, but I think the axer needs to do more than that to be worth 6.

Though a primal'd axer is pretty hillarious.

[Gdead909]

If I have the points to spare I try to bring the axer but that isnt very often

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

If I have the points to spare I try to bring the axer but that isnt very often

Even when I have the points, I generally don't. Most of my lists already have 2 animi beasts (usually impaler and pyre).

[PG_Vynde]

Side question about eDoomy.. if you were going to run a 25p list(mini hardcore tournie) what would you run?

[PG_petegrrrr]

25 points...hmm....

eDoomy +6
EBDT 10
Bomber 10
Rok 11

You have the buffs you need to damage heavies and hit casters, and you have ranged options to make your opponent keep his caster off the front lines.

Bomber and Rok are both great refuge targets, and thanks to Rok Your bomber can be mat 7 pow 17 if the fighting gets up close and personal.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Side question about eDoomy.. if you were going to run a 25p list(mini hardcore tournie) what would you run?

25 points...hmm....

eDoomy +6
EBDT 10
Bomber 10
Rok 11

You have the buffs you need to damage heavies and hit casters, and you have ranged options to make your opponent keep his caster off the front lines.

Bomber and Rok are both great refuge targets, and thanks to Rok Your bomber can be mat 7 pow 17 if the fighting gets up close and personal.

I played in a very similar event, and practiced quite a bit for it. The absolute best combo I found was Rök and two earthborns. The amount of destruction you can do was amazing. I played it with Grim, but eDoomshaper should run it just as well.

[PG_Vynde]

yah the problem is im just starting trolls.. and the tournament is in a month. I've got currently painted Mulg/axer/eDoom/Janissa/1/2 way done fennblades, and i own a troll plastic kit and am looking for a earthborn in town. Would this work?:

eDoomy
Ebdt
Mulg
Axer
Janissa

[Mountain King]

yah the problem is im just starting trolls.. and the tournament is in a month. I've got currently painted Mulg/axer/eDoom/Janissa/1/2 way done fennblades, and i own a troll plastic kit and am looking for a earthborn in town. Would this work?:

eDoomy
Ebdt
Mulg
Axer
Janissa

Yes that works just fine. Nice part with the Axer is if you can get the EBDT next to some rough terrain on feat turn you can put the axer animus on the EBDT and really sling shot him out there.

[The Happy Anarchist]

eDoomies Holy Trinity has become Mulg, EBDT, and Rok. This should never have been questioned, once Rok came onto the scene it was as simple as replacing the Mauler. Much like fellcalled Tuffaloes, Primaled +Wild Agression on Rok or Mulg can even clear out droves of IF'd Kayazy Assassins.

I still prefer the Mauler with eDoomy - I have never had much trouble with infantry in the list, even if it takes a bit of time to kill it and Rage doesn't cause frenzy and I actually tend to have 2-3 of my 3 heavies left at the end of eDoomy games, so the Frenzy is costing me valuable activations.

I prefer Rok for my more ranged heavy lists where the hitting power and accuracy of the beasts in melee are suspect - like Grim or Gunnbjorn using Bombers, Impalers and Slag/Pyres.

In all honesty, the axer doesn't really have a slot in most of our lists in mark 2.

For 6 points, he's too pillow fisted to hurt heavies, and his animus is to valuable to really commit him to combat (since the animus is the only real reason to bring him, and having him die negates that), which means he's six points for a light beast animus battery, and that's not very useful to most players. Even if you do commit him to melee, all he's really good at is killing troopers with low def, which is something we do fine already.

The EBDT however can hit heavies as hard or harder than they can hit him, and has an animus that can also be a speed and arm buff. He's like the axer, only he can actually do stuff as well and can take a beating and keep on coming.

I still like the Axer. I use him most commonly in my beast brick lists, where he is a fourth ARM 22 heavy, which means Rush is around until I need it, and he plays on the front lines. He then dives into some infantry/key solos and threshers. He may live or die, but if I need rush it is this turn and after that I am usually good. Moreover, pathfinder matters. Not just to get through rough terrain, but to get over the more and more common walls or just not be anchored to terrain.

Don't get me wrong, the Earthborn is brilliant and the obvious choice for the OP - but I think the Axer gets more hate than is warranted. He is not every list good like the Gladiator, but he is good in the lists I take him in.

[Mountain King]

I still prefer the Mauler with eDoomy - I have never had much trouble with infantry in the list, even if it takes a bit of time to kill it and Rage doesn't cause frenzy and I actually tend to have 2-3 of my 3 heavies left at the end of eDoomy games, so the Frenzy is costing me valuable activations.

I prefer Rok for my more ranged heavy lists where the hitting power and accuracy of the beasts in melee are suspect - like Grim or Gunnbjorn using Bombers, Impalers and Slag/Pyres.

I don't take Rok as an anti-infantry model in an eDommie list. I take him as another High MAT high POW Beast to kill the caster with. He also happens to be able to make any other beast more accurate as well as hit harder all in one animus.
I also think that people worry about their beasts frenzing entirely way too much. Seriously it is SO OVERRATED, I had my MK frenzy 3 times in a game and I didn't even care that 20 points of my list was out of my control for 3 turns, it still killed enemy models and it didn't die.

I also agree with your assessment on the Axer, he doesnt make every list nor should he. In the lists he does make it into he is usually pretty good and for me he usually make close to double his points back on top of having a great animus to throw out.

[PG_JBFlanz]

In all honesty, the axer doesn't really have a slot in most of our lists in mark 2.

For 6 points, he's too pillow fisted to hurt heavies, and his animus is to valuable to really commit him to combat (since the animus is the only real reason to bring him, and having him die negates that), which means he's six points for a light beast animus battery, and that's not very useful to most players. Even if you do commit him to melee, all he's really good at is killing troopers with low def, which is something we do fine already.

The EBDT however can hit heavies as hard or harder than they can hit him, and has an animus that can also be a speed and arm buff. He's like the axer, only he can actually do stuff as well and can take a beating and keep on coming.

I think the Axer is the best light in the game. I commit him all of the time as his animus is only needed before the scrum. He does everything you would want a light to do and if you are packing rok or a mauler, he can kill heavies or at least finish them off. The best part about him is his durability. No light is more durable, without having some major melee downfalls. All in all, to boldly claim his lack of place is unsettling IMO.

[PG_petegrrrr]

It's not a bold claim, more of a factual observation

Saying he is the best light in the game however, is one hell of a bold claim. Also he absolutely doesn't do 2 things I want my lights to do:

1) Cost 5 points or less unless

2) they are a character model/ arcnode/can mix and match ranged or melee

I play a lot of skorne lately, and there is just no way he's better than a savage, or a brute, or even a shaman in an unbiased comparison. The same holds true for the Gorax, or the Dervish, or a redeemer, or a minuteman etc, etc.

And if you have an EBDT in your list, his speed buff is often times just redundant, which means you are left paying 6 for his base stats and thresher...and that's not something I'd really pay for.

I'm all for "Rah Rah Trolls", but the line between support and hyperbole is getting a little blurred.

[PG_JBFlanz]

It's not a bold claim, more of a factual observation

Saying he is the best light in the game however, is one hell of a bold claim. Also he absolutely doesn't do 2 things I want my lights to do:

1) Cost 5 points or less unless

2) they are a character model/ arcnode/can mix and match ranged or melee

I play a lot of skorne lately, and there is just no way he's better than a savage, or a brute, or even a shaman in an unbiased comparison. The same holds true for the Gorax, or the Dervish, or a redeemer, or a minuteman etc, etc.

And if you have an EBDT in your list, his speed buff is often times just redundant, which means you are left paying 6 for his base stats and thresher...and that's not something I'd really pay for.

I'm all for "Rah Rah Trolls", but the line between support and hyperbole is getting a little blurred.

What facts are you bringing to light pete? I played three in my opening round series of masters at L&L between 3 lists, and they were pros, giving me the fortune to lead me to a masters win. At kingdom con, where you were present, they pushed me through the final round of the sunday all by themselves. They were in 2 of the three lists brought by the Troll player playing in the final undefeated round at UK masters. Those were the last 3 conventions, and those seem to be players playing at the top with 7 axers between 8 lists. Seems like the facts support their superiority, being the most played beast for trolls. I will agree with you that the role of support is given to him, leading to bad play. Try leading with him...he is a monster.

[PG_petegrrrr]

No, facts support that you have success with them, which in turn can be attributed to the fact that

A) you are a very good player and

B) People aren't used to seeing Axer in tournaments anymore.


At kingdom Con, you were the only one fielding them in the entire field that I could observe in the events I played or judged in. In fact, until the recent patch, the last time an axer was in a finals anywhere that I know of was back when I made the finals in the first PP attended adepticon (not by me though. I had all lights, and not an axer to be seen )

Basically, all that has been proven is that, after a prolonged absence from the scene, really good players that make finals can make Axer's work if they want to.

While that's nice, it certainly doesn't make them the best light in the game. They aren't even the best in their own faction. Pyre Troll, I'm looking at you!

Believe me, I wish the axer was a better. He's the best paint job I ever had and I spent the first 2 years of mark 2 shoehorning him in lists because of it, but after two solid years of playing with him, I just realized that while he can be okay in certain match ups or shine with a lot of buffs, for his points I just wasn't getting enough out of him on a regular basis.

If you and a few other great players are having luck with him, congrats, but that does not a trend make.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I don't take Rok as an anti-infantry model in an eDommie list. I take him as another High MAT high POW Beast to kill the caster with. He also happens to be able to make any other beast more accurate as well as hit harder all in one animus.
I also think that people worry about their beasts frenzing entirely way too much. Seriously it is SO OVERRATED, I had my MK frenzy 3 times in a game and I didn't even care that 20 points of my list was out of my control for 3 turns, it still killed enemy models and it didn't die.

I also agree with your assessment on the Axer, he doesnt make every list nor should he. In the lists he does make it into he is usually pretty good and for me he usually make close to double his points back on top of having a great animus to throw out.

Your opponent is doing you a favor if they kill a beast that had Primal on it. Ideally, you can punish fairly easily by just making sure there is some random cheap model next to it and then going around it. A beast that is gauranteed to frenzy is a beast that can be 99% ignored - it can be worth it at certain times, but for eDoomy where I can spend 2 points less and get a Mauler and I can toss around Wild Aggression and Rage like it is going out of style without giving openings for my opponent to take advantage of?

Yes it is slightly better when killing high defense casters - but I never come up short on high defense casters anyway, it is the super high armor ones that are harder to kill.

@Pete - I would take the Axer over the Savage every time, as well as the Brute. The Shaman would be extremely tempting due to being able to use other casters animi, upkeep removal and an extremely good gun - but I am not 100%. Rush is just such a good animus, and Thresher with high pow and extremely high survivability. I agree it is not the best light in the game, as I would trade it for a Gorax without thinking twice, or possibly a Drake just because of the awful things I could do with them and Gunny/Grim.

You claim we are using hyperbole, but is it possible you are just missing something or underselling abilities due to a difference in playstyle? He is almost as tough as a heavy, hits fairly hard and has thresher and a decent mat with a great animus. He is expensive, but he has been worth it in the lists I bring him every time.

You also seem to make the comparison like the Earthborn always has a forest nearby and a high pow weapon to mooch off of. This isn't always the case. The Earthborn is incredible, but that doesn't mean you can rely on terrain being perfect for you every time and most of the time I include an Axer there is an Earthborn in the list as well. The Earthborn also doesn't get you through rough terrain.

This isn't ra ra Skinners are sweet. Saying an Axer is a solid light is a reasonable statement to make, and that it fits in several competitive lists.