Colossals = Always bring eMadrak?

[LeSaboteur]

Ok, so with the release of the colossals, there is a huge gain in having the ability to put out damage beyond what we are used to. Their is noting such as "overkill" anymore. As I expect to see a lot of colossals on the other side of the board in the near future (new and shiny toys) ,I'm having a hard time NOT taking eMaddy as one of two casters when I build lists for upcoming steamroller tournaments. He just seems as The counter for colossals.

Not that he is bad or boring (the oposit in fact) , but I fear he will be some sort of autoinclude in steamrollers from now on, and that is not good in the long run.

How do you feel about this?
What other answers to colossals do you have come up with?
Is there any reson I shouldn't take eMaddy?

[Mountain King]

Any caster that can launch multiple beasts across the board fast enough are also legitimate options.
Colossals are not some indestructable force. They crumple just like warjacks do, if you don't kill it in one turn chances are you have rendered it useless by crippling it's systems. This is what will set Gargs apart from Cols in the long term just like beasts from jacks.

I don't think there is any need to bring anything over and above what is already considered tournament viable. POW 23 Mulg still pretty much wrecks everything in the game in one go.

[wargrim]

While eMadrak is able to buff the damage output of his infantry to the top, getting the infantry to the colossals could be a bit difficult. Stormwall is able to block 7" of charge lanes, Judicator brings 4-6 POW9 AOEs per round, the other colossals are a bit lighter in the anti infantry department but that's still some AOE5's.

But i don't think there is something special needed to counter colossals. One melee heavy and some extra attacks are enough to solve this, two heavy's are probably better for redundancy.

[unclebiggins]

I dont think that eMadrak is the only answer.

I believe that any eHoarluk army featuring a dire troll or two (who are we kidding there is at least going to be three) will handle just fine.

In steamroller where you have multiple lists, I would ensure you had at least one list suitable for taking down collosals and the like. You need some redundancies when dealing with most of them but a 18-20 PC Collosal takes alot of enemy models off the table and gives you a bit or room to outmanuever them if you dont bring one yourself.

Also the Mountain King I have used seems pretty apt at taking down Collosals himself with only a minor amount of support (KSB + UA makes him both hard to kill and gives him access to 6 or 7 POW 20 attacks during his activation)

[ConejitoD]

I don't think I'm going to face Colossals any time soon (because most of my friends don't have the money to buy them by now), but I don't feel like Madrak2 is The answer to them.

I do think that The answer is +1 Heavy. If lately the usual trollblood list had 1-2 Dire Trolls (Mulg/Rök/Earthborn/Bomber usually), the answer will be upgrade to a 2-3 Dires lists (adding Mulg/Rök/Eartborn/Mauler, Revaluing the Mauler, because Rage is going to help a lot against Colossals,and probably devaluing the Bomber, who probably will be changed for a heavy hitter in some lists).

[PG_Celedor]

Colossals are not some indestructable force. They crumple just like warjacks do, if you don't kill it in one turn chances are you have rendered it useless by crippling it's systems. This is what will set Gargs apart from Cols in the long term just like beasts from jacks.

I don't think there is any need to bring anything over and above what is already considered tournament viable. POW 23 Mulg still pretty much wrecks everything in the game in one go.

Crumple? Just like warjacks? I don't think so. Far more health boxes and the ability to stand back and pump out unprecedented ranged fire power even if engaged makes them very different imo. Even if you wreck a system, Can they not be repaired?

Also, everyone is saying P+S23 Mulg wrecks anything. That's kinda true, but you still have to get Mulg there, and there are ways your opponent can prevent that. And that's 21 points in beasts and 4 points in the KSB we seem to be assuming we always want to bring? That really limits our list building options.

I think the op has presented a versatile alternative for tabling the fire power to take down a colossal than what seems to be the fixated upon solution of a P+S23 Mulg.

Personally, I can't wait to throw 10 Blood Fury enhanced Burrowers at a Colossal.

edit: Covering Fire templates...riiight. Doh! And Arcane Shield. Ok, I guess if we do want to kill the colossals we are pigeonholed :P

[Brettman008]

While I think eMadrak is a fine choice vs. many of the colossals I don't think he's going to cut it vs. the Stormwall. Cover fire templates are going to make it impossible to bring a unit of Burrowers or Fenn Blades into melee with it. Plus, if they're running it with either version of Haley getting the charge off probably isn't going to happen. Furthermore, it is safe to assume Stormwall is going to be ARM 22 with Arcane Shield up. Burrowers aren't going to do much even with Blood Fury up.

As others have mentioned going beast heavy is probably the best answer. In particular I like pDoomshaper for the job. He can strip upkeeps and basically gives Mulg a free attack. Cast Purification, give Mulg Fortune (he practically auto-hits DEF 10 at that point) and Rage and send him in. On average dice he'll scrap Stormwall with plenty of boxes to spare.

[Loki77515]

I won a game against a Mercenary (Bartolo) player the other day who was using the Galleon. I was using Grim and I never even targeted his colossal with an attack, I just went for his caster and managed to kill him on feat turn.

Remember guys, just because you see a colossal on the other side of the table does not mean you are under an unspoken obligation to trash it. Ignoring it and focusing on getting to their caster is still a priority since at least 1/3 of their army has been put into the points for that colossal and that means much less bodies to get in between you and their caster/lock.

[Beckman]

I think our top options for dealing with Colossals are as follows:

Best Options:
#1. pHoarluk: He wants to bring Mulg AND he has Purification. So they can't boost ARM to silly high levels. Assuming that you can bring a few more beasts, you should be fine. Full Tilt from Kraye on a Stormclad might give you issues... But whatever. You can trade pretty well here.

2. eMadrak: No-Brainer. ESPECIALLY if you take more beasts than you're accustomed to with him. If you take even Mulg + Rok, you've got great threat range on your beasts due to Warpath, great infantry hitting power, and pathfinder/charge for free from Killing Ground. That's a lot of positives.

3. eHoarluk: Catapulting our heavies never gets old. More universally good feat than pHoarluk, better generic spell list than pHoarluk, except Purification is missing. Which hurts a lot in the Colossals matchups.

4. pGrissel: I think this is an absolutely fantastic sleeper choice! It could EASILY be a great option! She works with troops really well, but Calamity is a BACKBREAKING spell against Colossals because they: 1) Have trashy DEF 2) Don't get the in melee DEF bonus. Take some Bone Griders for Craft Talisman, toss calamity on the Colossal and try to wreck it with a beast that has +1 attack, probably Rage already and +2 to hit and damage. If this fails, camp on your 4 FURY for transfers and put a WHOLE KRIEL WARRIOR UNIT inbetween you and that Colossal. Pray that that's enough to keep you safe. I think Calamity will be the spell that lifts Grissel back into popularity. Hallowed Avenger lets you gain conditional threat range and can really mess with your opponent's order of activations.

Good Options:
Calandra: Save Feat Turn for the Colossals, and I think you have potential for dealing with Colossals if you bring the right beast loadout.

Everyone else:
pMadrak: Makes a great beast brick, so if that's your plan.. I think he'll do well. Otherwise, he can't pierce the ARM.

Borka: Has a good +chargerange feat, so if you go beastbrick with him, you can do OK. Make sure to take Nyss... I think you're going to have a hard time when the Stormwall mulches your Ironflesh unit, though.

Grim: King of DEF debuffs. Relies on KD. Both of which are irrelevant against Colossals. I think it's a bad choice.

Gunny: Walls make for good bricking, but he offers little else unless you're making a gunline. I don't think that's going to be a favorable matchup with Colossals unless you potentially bring the Mountain King. Then you might get somewhere with, "No stopping on my wall" and charging the other Colossal.

Jarl Skuld: Infantry Jam caster I don't like this matchup unless you bring a lot of beasts, in which case you are missing Jarl's point, I think..


I think any of our casters is OK if you bring 3 heavies or so... But that may be a tad unreasonable. Certainly, pGrissel with +1 attack for a beast, +2 to hit and damage, and Hallowed Avenger seems like she could do a list with less beasts and more jam infantry.

Edit: Just want to point out that a Mauler with Rage and Calamity is P+S23 also. So it's a good answer to character restrictions, at least.

[PG_petegrrrr]

a few things to point out.

1) eMadrak is an infantry warlock first and foremost, and almost every colossal has great anti infantry abilities that can stifle his lists

2) pDoomy has no way to ensure alpha strike, so he may very well see his beasts explode or get tagged with shots himself before he is in range to purify. This will be a major problem against the two really heavily ranged colossals, stormwall and galleon, in particular.

Before you are in range to purify, Galleon will be in range to drag one of your heavies to it's death, and stormwall will have two turns of shooting to decimate another.


I would go Grissel, mainly because you need to limit the amount of turns you take damage with no ability to respond. Turn 1 feat says you jam with medium bases the first round and have beasts safe behind them with medium bases blocking potential drags and only having to endure 1 turn of shooting from a colossal.

[Cleavelander]

I think emadrak+burrowers can be a good option for evading the stormwall's covering fire and putting some hurt on a colossal. Other than that, I'd rather bring a different caster with a few more heavies.

[wargrim]

Galleon will be in range to drag one of your heavies to it's death

Not if you take whelps in your list. It makes Galleon a sad killer robot if his target is on its way to destruction, but then a whelp jumps in the way and holds it in place.

[nIKon]

Not if you take whelps in your list. It makes Galleon a sad killer robot if his target is on its way to destruction, but then a whelp jumps in the way and holds it in place.

I agree with this tactic. Versus a drag list whelps are important. You do not want a beast to go hug Galleon on Galleon's turn. Hugging on the beast's turn is another matter.

J--

[Beckman]

2) pDoomy has no way to ensure alpha strike, so he may very well see his beasts explode or get tagged with shots himself before he is in range to purify. This will be a major problem against the two really heavily ranged colossals, stormwall and galleon, in particular.

Before you are in range to purify, Galleon will be in range to drag one of your heavies to it's death, and stormwall will have two turns of shooting to decimate another.

Can't drag over Janissa's wall. Amirite?

I would go Grissel, mainly because you need to limit the amount of turns you take damage with no ability to respond. Turn 1 feat says you jam with medium bases the first round and have beasts safe behind them with medium bases blocking potential drags and only having to endure 1 turn of shooting from a colossal.

I also like this, especially as a second list if your first one isn't great against colossals. And it doesn't require characters. And Calamity is great against other high ARM targets too..

Edit: Good call on the whelps, guys... Hah.

[elkap]

I'm also looking forward to pDoomy's feat, as I am expecting people to just shrug at having to take a few d6 on their pristine colossal... puts it in a great place for Mulg to smash though. With Janissa's wall, Krielstone, Whelps, Banishing Ward + Elemental Communion, I'm not that worried about losing Mulg to ranged attacks... and they're just kindly speeding him up for me.

[MagnifaSnail]

The colossal I'm most worried about is Conquest. Not only will he be the most difficult to take down but he is bad for most of our options that are decent answers to the other colossals. Critical Devastation is a nightmare! It just takes one good shot to ruin your whole beast brick and completely screw over your next turn. A bunch of knocked down beasts thrown back a few inches having to generate excess fury to get the most out of their activation is no fun! Not to mention his AoE's are strong enough to put the hurt on a lot of our infantry, especially with stuff like Fire For Effect floating around. Creeping barrage will even tag a few of our infantry and be very bad for any burrowers on the table. The Judicator and Stormwall can be taken out with heavies, Galleon's drag shenanigans can be thwarted with whelps and rock walls but Conquest scares beasts as well as infantry with crit dev AoE 4.

[Beckman]

The colossal I'm most worried about is Conquest. Not only will he be the most difficult to take down but he is bad for most of our options that are decent answers to the other colossals. Critical Devastation is a nightmare! It just takes one good shot to ruin your whole beast brick and completely screw over your next turn. A bunch of knocked down beasts thrown back a few inches having to generate excess fury to get the most out of their activation is no fun! Not to mention his AoE's are strong enough to put the hurt on a lot of our infantry, especially with stuff like Fire For Effect floating around. Creeping barrage will even tag a few of our infantry and be very bad for any burrowers on the table. The Judicator and Stormwall can be taken out with heavies, Galleon's drag shenanigans can be thwarted with whelps and rock walls but Conquest scares beasts as well as infantry with crit dev AoE 4.

While this is true, the Conquest is ARM20? We can pretty easily crack that with 1-2 buffed heavies.

[PG_petegrrrr]

I think emadrak+burrowers can be a good option for evading the stormwall's covering fire and putting some hurt on a colossal. Other than that, I'd rather bring a different caster with a few more heavies.

Covering fire negates burrowers. Put two in front of stormwall and they literally will never be able to engage it without dying.

The whelp drag trick is a good one, and one I have used to stop drag before, but even if you don't get dragged in, you are still eating some high power ranged attacks before you ever get close with pDoomy.

And if you hide a beast behind the wall, that means janissa is going to have to look out for 2-6 shots with the galleons crazy port guns.

Also, whelps do nothing to stop you from taking a ranged pounding from stormwall or the Kraken.

It's all about mitigating unanswered damage, and when it comes to that, eDoomy and Grissel are the answers we have.

[Brettman008]

Covering fire negates burrowers. Put two in front of stormwall and they literally will never be able to engage it without dying.


It's all about mitigating unanswered damage, and when it comes to that, eDoomy and Grissel are the answers we have.

True, but how is Grissel any better? KWs, even under the KSB are getting killed on a 6+.

[Cleavelander]

I wouldn't recommend charging the burrowers through the templates. However, it's entirely possible for the burrowers to engage Stormwall from a side that doesn't have covering fire. That being said, getting the proper vectors to charge the stormwall may be more difficult than I am thinking.

[PG_petegrrrr]

True, but how is Grissel any better? KWs, even under the KSB are getting killed on a 6+.

Well, first off, I'd go fennblades, and they will jam turn 1, and with her feat and their mini feat they should be able to run around cover fire to get into the lines and engage other models and pester storwall.

The rest of the list would be beasts and longriders, with the occasional solo (fell caller, janissa, runebearer, etc).

The issue that burrowers have is that they will just get trampled over if they get too close, and they will never get the charge off, and that they will actually have to burrow turn 1 if they AD or risk being shot apart. If they do burrow, they will be at the mercy of covering fire for as long as the stormwall player wants them to be, unless they just give up and run to engage, which ends badly since they are not medium bases so they don't really block in the colossals.

[Brettman008]

Thanks for the clarification Pete. I agree that Burrowers are not the answer to SW. Out of curiosity what do you run in Grissel's battlegroup and do you include Whelps because she tends to hold lots of Fury?

[PG_jbarket]

I played two games against the Stormwall last week, and I don't think any Troll caster has any particular problem with them. We have the capability to put out a ton of damage, and that's all it takes to kill one.

With that said, eMadrak is hilarious against them. I killed the Stormwall with 3 Fennblades and 2 Blood Furied Champs in one game. I had one more Champ in B2B with it and I was flabbergasted when I realized it was dead.

But I was able to take it down with an EBDT and Rok too.

[Mountain King]

Well, first off, I'd go fennblades, and they will jam turn 1, and with her feat and their mini feat they should be able to run around cover fire to get into the lines and engage other models and pester storwall.

The rest of the list would be beasts and longriders, with the occasional solo (fell caller, janissa, runebearer, etc).

The issue that burrowers have is that they will just get trampled over if they get too close, and they will never get the charge off, and that they will actually have to burrow turn 1 if they AD or risk being shot apart. If they do burrow, they will be at the mercy of covering fire for as long as the stormwall player wants them to be, unless they just give up and run to engage, which ends badly since they are not medium bases so they don't really block in the colossals.

Stormwall trampling really isn't much of a threat except under very few Cygnar casters, same is true for all the rest of the Cols. Without any kind of SPD buff they have and effective 3" trample due to base size needing to fit where thery want to land. With all of our medium bases it is quite easy for us to fill in that space behind the burrowers to prevent them from being trample.
Also if the Stormwall/Cols are trampling my Dygmies that means they aren't shotting/attacking something else more valueable.

@Celador, yes they have more hitboxes that isn't as big a deal as everyone thinks it is. Plenty of factions have single model options(buffed) that can kill a Colossal in a single turn. Again crippling a warjack colossal or not effectively removes them from the game. Sure they can be repaired, but I hope you have more than 1 beast and your caster in your list. Maybe you might have some other models that can kill them, also Mechanics are not the same as healing a beast.

Simply put Colossals aren't the oh no the world is going to end models people are thinking they are. Once you get adjusted to them they will be just like any other piece on the table.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Burrowers are small bases, hence their danger if they try to engage, because 3 inches still leaves the colossal with 2 inches of extra movement left if he goes over a small base. Also, since they can only engage from .5 inches out, they will by default be vulnerable to trampling if they do manage to engage.

But since covering fire means they will likely have to run to engage, and since they must be so close to engage, they are also at risk for getting threshered to death, assuming the stormwall player cares enough to bother.

remember, Stormwall isn't the only model in the list. if you just run up some burrowers in the hopes they survive next round to try and do some damage, their is the rest of the list that can pick them off if needed.

[Beckman]

Simply put Colossals aren't the oh no the world is going to end models people are thinking they are. Once you get adjusted to them they will be just like any other piece on the table.

While I agree with you about what you just said... Lists need to be re-evaluated. Colossals are EXTREMELY effective and are going to change the metagame significantly. Once everything shakes out, the game will be fine and be somewhat balanced again. It's playing Colossals with the lists that are good in the current metagame that can lead to bad matchups.

A lot of this boils down to the fact that the metagame has been disturbed such that some lists that were great before are not so much now. And some lists that were not so great have gotten new life. pGrissel and pHoarluk were probably considered tier 2 Troll before Colossals, but I they're certainly creeping to tier one in people's estimation on paper against colossals...

[hmk17]

Saw Absylonia square off against a Darius run Stormwall last week in a 35 point game.

Scythean was able to mess up the Stormwall in one pass, but it had a few boxes left and Darius popped feat then Jackhammered the Scythean 6 times before the Stormwall's 1st initial attack dropped the beastie. The feat saved it all there.

While having a colossal might encourage some to consider mechanics, but you are still going to see Strangeways, Vassals, and Arcanists out there in their usual roles

[Mountain King]

Burrowers are small bases, hence their danger if they try to engage, because 3 inches still leaves the colossal with 2 inches of extra movement left if he goes over a small base. Also, since they can only engage from .5 inches out, they will by default be vulnerable to trampling if they do manage to engage.

But since covering fire means they will likely have to run to engage, and since they must be so close to engage, they are also at risk for getting threshered to death, assuming the stormwall player cares enough to bother.

remember, Stormwall isn't the only model in the list. if you just run up some burrowers in the hopes they survive next round to try and do some damage, their is the rest of the list that can pick them off if needed.

I think you are missing the point about tramples and the ability for us to easily stop and 8" trample. Without a SPD buff Cols trample 8", due to base size they effectively have a 3" trample. It is very easy for an army of Medium bases to clog up that area to prevent the colossal from trampling them. If the Col wants to trample a 4/6 unit than that 4/6 just effectively took out 18+ points of his army for one turn. I will take that trade everytime, this also proably puts the Cols in prime chargine distance and lanes for the rest of our army.

If the Cols want to threasher the 4/6 unit that is a good thing as I have said before, that means he isn't attacking something more valueable.

Again if they are devoting resources to pick off a 4/6 unit that is a good thing. Especially if they are diverting other models to the cause as if you have Dygmies on a Stormwall chances are they are behind enemy lines. the Stormwall is never going to be played in the front lines, nor do I think any of the Cols/Gargs will be. Thus is you are getting sacrifial units to them something is probably already going terribly wrong for one person or another.

You have to stop looking at the Dygmies as a valuable dmg resource in this scenario, their purpose is to make the enemy waste resources on them instead of your main threats. With a POW 14 weapon they are enough of a threat that they need to be dealt with.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Here is the thing you are missing.

With the option of covering fire or 2d3 pow 12 ranged shots, those dygmies aren't ever going to get anywhere annoying unless a lot of bad dice happens.

Even if you run them up, those cyclone guns on the stormwall are made for killing single infantry, so they will get slaughtered while the big guns still shoot the big targets. And then there are the lightning pods for taking out the odd pesky dygmy.

A stormwall can still do massive damage to heavies or kill casters while a few dygmies huddle around it's base waiting to get mowed down by the other guns or lightning pods.

The fact that covering fire will prevent them from ever getting to move in and attack in the same turn basically negates their use vs the stormwall, who will just sit their, aim, hit some big targets, then pick off a couple dygmies with the metal storm guns, unless it feels like shooting other targets.

That is the other negative of burrowers. They won't block line of sight like a unit of kriels or fennblades would, so you can shoot right over them into warlocks, key solos, etc.

[Mountain King]

Here is the thing you are missing.

With the option of covering fire or 2d3 pow 12 ranged shots, those dygmies aren't ever going to get anywhere annoying unless a lot of bad dice happens.

Even if you run them up, those cyclone guns on the stormwall are made for killing single infantry, so they will get slaughtered while the big guns still shoot the big targets. And then there are the lightning pods for taking out the odd pesky dygmy.

A stormwall can still do massive damage to heavies or kill casters while a few dygmies huddle around it's base waiting to get mowed down by the other guns or lightning pods.

The fact that covering fire will prevent them from ever getting to move in and attack in the same turn basically negates their use vs the stormwall, who will just sit their, aim, hit some big targets, then pick off a couple dygmies with the metal storm guns, unless it feels like shooting other targets.

That is the other negative of burrowers. They won't block line of sight like a unit of kriels or fennblades would, so you can shoot right over them into warlocks, key solos, etc.

No I am not missing any of that, this wasn't my example of getting the Dygmies onto the Stormwall. Chances of the Stormwall having both of his arcs faced onto the Dygmies is highly unlikely so it's more like he ets 1d3 shots at them. I had already mentioned that if they are on him than something has gone bad for one player or another.
There are also more Colossals other than the Stormwall, as in the thread title it says "Colossals". Not all of the Colossals pump out as many shots as the Stormwall does. And once again if the 19 point model is using it's activation to kill a 4/6 unit that is a good thing.
This actually makes dygmies what they are supposed to be a sacrifical unit. I will gladly let the Stormwall spend all of it's shots killing my Dygmies so I can charge it with Mulg.

In any regards, I really don't care how the dygmies fair against colossals as I have never liked the unit anyway. I feel they get way too much praise for what they actually offer.
Instead of worrying about the Dygmies and what they can and can't do, we should be looking at better ways to deal with the new lists that are assured to arise.

[PG_petegrrrr]

...The stormwall can face his arc however he wants. There is literally nothing the dygmies can do about that.

Stormwall actiavtes, turns so that he has the amount of dygmies in each arc that he wants, and then fires.

But I do agree that burrowers get far too much credit for what they will realistically accomplish now that players know what they do. They were annoying at the onset of mark 2, but even then they were never tournament winning world breakers the way some people tried to portray them.

And with the anti infantry "toss off" abilities of colossals (i.e. the stuff they can do and still fire with the big guns), they will take a dip in the power curve yet again.

[Crate123]

2d3 shots that need 7s to hit, honestly thats not a lot of dead dygmies. If they actually make it into melee he cant aim. The issue is obviously getting there. I can see the champions being used a little more often since they can charge through those covering fires pretty much without any trouble and even the big guns will need to boost to do anything to them at all.

[ToughRolls00]

I think our top options for dealing with Colossals are as follows:



Jarl Skuld: Infantry Jam caster I don't like this matchup unless you bring a lot of beasts, in which case you are missing Jarl's point, I think..

As PG_petegrrrr said, with Collosals you have to worry about their range attack. I played a game against a Conquest last Wednesday with Jarl, and I think he performed very well, and I ended up winning the game.

I popped feat second turn so he couldn't blast my army, which seemed to me to be the turn it would have hurt me the most.

I didn't end up touching the Conquest, but I trashed his Bohemoth and Butcher with my champs and Jarl finished him off with his gun.

[Beckman]

As PG_petegrrrr said, with Collosals you have to worry about their range attack. I played a game against a Conquest last Wednesday with Jarl, and I think he performed very well, and I ended up winning the game.

I popped feat second turn so he couldn't blast my army, which seemed to me to be the turn it would have hurt me the most.

I didn't end up touching the Conquest, but I trashed his Bohemoth and Butcher with my champs and Jarl finished him off with his gun.

If you're implying that you should take Jarl for his feat in order to block LOS, I kindof disagree. I'd rather have pGrissel, or some other warlock..

[DanTrollBlitzer]

I still believe my prediction (made a while back) will come true. That is: Colossals/Gargantuas will change the meta by just making things a little more jack and beast heavy. I think everyone agrees that mkII is still a little too "infantry machine", but now people will start swapping out this unit or that unit for another heavy...just in case your opponent has a Colossal or Gargantua! The inclusion of 2+ heavies in our lists will work just fine for taking down a 120mm base monstrosity. I think this is what the game designers envisioned. And I welcome this change (less infantry, more stompy robots and roaring beasts!). So, I would say to the OP, I don`t think it`ll come down to this caster or that caster as our only option for combating colossals/gargantuas...you`ll just have to include a little more muscle in your lists. My two yen.

DanTrollBlitzer

[Beckman]

I still believe my prediction (made a while back) will come true. That is: Colossals/Gargantuas will change the meta by just making things a little more jack and beast heavy. I think everyone agrees that mkII is still a little too "infantry machine", but now people will start swapping out this unit or that unit for another heavy...just in case your opponent has a Colossal or Gargantua! The inclusion of 2+ heavies in our lists will work just fine for taking down a 120mm base monstrosity. I think this is what the game designers envisioned. And I welcome this change (less infantry, more stompy robots and roaring beasts!). So, I would say to the OP, I don`t think it`ll come down to this caster or that caster as our only option for combating colossals/gargantuas...you`ll just have to include a little more muscle in your lists. My two yen.

DanTrollBlitzer

I kindof agree. If this change shifts the game to being a little more about beasts and jacks, rather than how many infantry models you can put on the board, I think that would be a good change.

[Mountain King]

I actually dont think it is going to make a big difference at all. Once the newness wears off people will start to go back to what really works, as Cols/Gargs do not work in all lists.
Also WM is going to be more keen on running their Colossals more than I think Hordes will want to run their Gargantuans. As so many people think that Warjacks are completely inferior to Warbeasts, this might be the way PP evens that playing field out.

The problem is that weapon master infantry is just far too good at killing hard targets, in order for the meta to truly shift weapon master would need to be reworked.

The state of the game still is as follows, you need very fast models to get across the table, you need models that can hit reliably, and you need models that hit hard. You also want/need to have all of those things in the same model/unit when possible. Cols/Gargs will not and have not changed this at all.
If PP didn't make it so 80% of lists/models could reach half way across the table in a turn then things might be a little different, but until MK III hits I don't see Cols/Gargs making that much of an impact on the meta in the long term.

[ConejitoD]

I actually dont think it is going to make a big difference at all. Once the newness wears off people will start to go back to what really works, as Cols/Gargs do not work in all lists.
Also WM is going to be more keen on running their Colossals more than I think Hordes will want to run their Gargantuans. As so many people think that Warjacks are completely inferior to Warbeasts, this might be the way PP evens that playing field out.

The problem is that weapon master infantry is just far too good at killing hard targets, in order for the meta to truly shift weapon master would need to be reworked.

The state of the game still is as follows, you need very fast models to get across the table, you need models that can hit reliably, and you need models that hit hard. You also want/need to have all of those things in the same model/unit when possible. Cols/Gargs will not and have not changed this at all.
If PP didn't make it so 80% of lists/models could reach half way across the table in a turn then things might be a little different, but until MK III hits I don't see Cols/Gargs making that much of an impact on the meta in the long term.

Sorry, But I have to disagree.

I think it's true that once people get used of what their Colossals/Gargantuas can do they will go to what it works, and then they will be competitive list with colossals, and without them.

By now we only know the stats of the mountain king, and even if we (trolblood players) aren't over excited about it, that doesn't mean that we can't changes our mind, and that others Colossals could be way better and way more appealing than Mountain King.

And its true, that weapon master are good Killing hard targets (not too good, but indeed they are good doing it). But also it's true that most of the Colossals have ways to deal with Infantry (way better ways than heavys), so they still are a interesting tool to deal with the Colossals but they are far away from neutralize them per se.

So, yes, I'm stilling think that Colossals will make people use more Heavys (And maybe, more heavy infantry).

[Mountain King]

Sorry, But I have to disagree.

I think it's true that once people get used of what their Colossals/Gargantuas can do they will go to what it works, and then they will be competitive list with colossals, and without them.

By now we only know the stats of the mountain king, and even if we (trolblood players) aren't over excited about it, that doesn't mean that we can't changes our mind, and that others Colossals could be way better and way more appealing than Mountain King.

And its true, that weapon master are good Killing hard targets (not too good, but indeed they are good doing it). But also it's true that most of the Colossals have ways to deal with Infantry (way better ways than heavys), so they still are a interesting tool to deal with the Colossals but they are far away from neutralize them per se.

So, yes, I'm stilling think that Colossals will make people use more Heavys (And maybe, more heavy infantry).

You actually pretty much reiterated everything I said with some slight differences.

We also know the Rules for ALL of the Colossals, and the Mountain King. There are only 3 Gargs we don't know the rules of.

[ConejitoD]

I said, disagree, not completely disagree, XD.

I mean, when I said that we only know the Mountain King stats it's that maybe he is just the least appealing of the Gaargantuas, maybe the other 3 are just as appealing or more than the colossals, and we are actually going to see lots of them in the tabletop.

What I tried to say is that maybe weapon master infantry are OK against Colossals but Colossals are good against infantry, I do think that the balance is on the ide of the colossals. But maybe multiwound weapon master infantry maybe another story, may be we will se more Champions, Bations, Cinerators, Cetrari, Aquari, Warmongers, Warspears and Demolishon Corps I the near future (moreover with the casters with damage buff).