Does anyone else think the Conquest is kind of bad?

[Madhiggins]

i really hate to be that guy, but does anyone else feel like the Conquest is the worst of all the colossals? i know the grass is always greener on the other sides, but the other colossals just have so much going for them that i'm honestly confused at how poorly the Conquest matches up. and as a double whammy, all the new colossals are so good at killing infantry it just kind of sends a feeling of dread down my khadorian spine. could someone help me out to see the brighter side of the Conquest? maybe there's some aspect of him i'm just not seeing. as it stands, the Conquest looks like something that will always lose the charge, have guns that aren't very good at killing infantry, a melee pow that's not even better than other factions once you start counting in jack support, and plus we're a faction that's not particularly known as one for jack casters. i really want to like him, but i'm just not seeing it.

[Tyr852]

If you just look through the first few pages of the forum you'll see pro's and con's to him strong search fu is not required. To me , It's average it's not unplayable but won't be in any competitive formats as all colossal point costs are to high for competitive formats imo. After Stormwall all the Colossals kind of waffle around the same level though for use and to be fair even SW isn't so hot against Hordes armies.

[Madhiggins]

my biggest problem is he just doesn't seem to have an advantage like all the other ones do. cygnar's is just crazy. menoth's gets a free focus, can easily wipe out a squad with it's 6 templates a turn and has the massive menoth jack support. cryz gets it's 4 inch reach. mercs get a strong harpoon and the ability to actually use all it's guns AND melee in one turn. and ret has the most hp and a giant 5 inch template that can literally auto kill infantry on a crit. i would be impressed with the Conquest's armor or pow if not for the fact that other factions actually buff theirs above Conquest with no prob. the only arm buffs available to Conquest are in a few rare feats. heck, other factions buff their colossals to numbers higher than the Conquest WITHOUT casters.

[Thenmy]

But the Conquest has eSorcha's bond.

[Madhiggins]

the bond is fine, but jacks aren't too worried about it. infantry are the ones most hurt by it, but most good melee infantry will drag down the conquest fast enough to bring a tear to my eye. it's a shame his covering fire is so bad at killing troops, average rolls will only kill the lightest of armored troops(that aren't immune to blast damage).

[Tyr852]

It's long been known Khadorians don't like to read is why our cards are so plain . Besides Choir buffs most things can be negated through some means lowering their usefulness it's just part of the game , since we don't have any buffs we don't have to worry about it. I mean at the end of the day they all mostly just smite down infantry except hyperion who has decent but short range cannon and if they are using it on your colossal or warjack it means they aren't using it on the infanty is my thought.

[Madhiggins]

i suppose if you count things like arcing fire shots to kill support, or Eryis to yank off buffs, then i start to feel a little better cause then Conquest starts to get the edge back. but i'm still not too happy having to devote resources to doing it.

[Tyr852]

Just depends how you look at it , take pbutcher and put fury on Conquest , regardless of what you are hitting it's hurting pop feat and you are doing that plus weapon master =d. It's better to look at thing and go ok what can I do with it , rather then look at them and go why can't I do that.

It's also a 19 point unit , you build the list around it so devoting resources to it is pretty much mandatory with Eiryss (who should come along anyways) and mechaniks.

[Kurb]

Here we go....

[Tyr852]

Here we go....

I know 3:00am Monday morning what are the forums if anything but predictable.

[bitmatic]

I think the Conquest looks very promising. I would only ever include it with a select few casters, but i think that is fine. I don't want any auto-includes/power-creep.

You have to factor into account the support we can give the conquest before passing judgement. We have arguably the best mechaniks in the game, for instance.
We also have stuff like eSorscha's bond, Harkevich, Fire for Effect, Unearthly Rage and the like that can be used to increase Conquest's effectiveness immensely. I also have an urge to put Assail on Conquest and go Super-slammin' with him

I for one welcome our new überjack...

[Garner]

i honestly cant figure out why its the same amount of points as the Cygnar or Menoth colossal. they get so much more useful stuff.. we get more health..

giving them all the same points value was a mistake.

[Madhiggins]

they all cost the same? i thought the Conquest cost 19 and all the others cost 18. which was another thing that was rubbing me the wrong way.

as for taking into account caster support, every faction has some kind of caster support. the only difference between khador and everyone else is that they all have non caster support in some huge manner. the only real jack non-caster support we can is mechanics, which while nice are no means 100% reliable. the mechanics have to roll once for the repair check, and then again for the number repaired. all ret has to do for jack support is have their arcanist walk up and give the jack +2 str. i'm not trying to say other factions are better or anything, but that factions have significant non-caster buffs they can give their colossals. i don't think the conquest is bad, but when every one else's new jack is a 7.5/10 PLUS it gets non-caster support and we get a 6/10 BUT it has very little non-caster support then it just makes me scratch my head in bewilderment.

[SpiderBite]

Cryx player here. Save yer pitchforks and torches . . . well, maybe not the torches.
Having seen Conquest 'inaction' a few times on the table, I'm quite disappointed.
Still not as bad as MK and Kraken, but not all that good either.
Maybe it'll just take more time for us to learn to love our colossals . . .

[PG_Kovaas]

I played it only five times so it's maybe too early to give an opinion, but for now I'm not happy with him on most of his aspects.

[John of Arc]

Conquest will not always be getting charged. pVlad can give him a 15" threat range on the charge, which out threats nearly every other colossal- in fact, the only other one I can think of that even matches it is Stormwall with Kraye getting Full Tilt. Also, are Colossal isn't very plain compared to some other ones. We have Creeping Barrage, Linked Fire and Crit Devastation. The Menoth and Ret colossals each have less fancy stuff going on than us. I think Conquest has some legitimate problems, but I also think there's a lot of hyperbole and theory thrown around about him.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

there's a lot of hyperbole and theory thrown around

That pretty much sums up the entire forum...

[PG_Draxos]

Have you put him on the table? Oh you haven't? Have you talked to someone who has? No? Then stop whining.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

I have to say that for all the poo-pooing that the Cygnar one has taken (which a lot of the doom-sayers are saying is worse than Khador's), I had to face one at a tourney on Saturday. With eHaley, Bond for +2 spd, TA for +2spd +1 attack... uhg, that thing was ungodly! I Karchev tow-whipped the Behemoth into it, took out 3/4 of it's health, but with a TK shot to get big-B out of melee range, and Arlen there to repair it, and a 9" advance with reach, he came up and played kick-ball with Karchev.

These Colossals are absolutely brutal. Some of the rules are a bit odd, but all in all, I'm excited to see the Conquest and I'll be ordering one as soon as they are available

-Rick

[DoktorVivi]

they all cost the same? i thought the Conquest cost 19 and all the others cost 18. which was another thing that was rubbing me the wrong way.

I think the Judicator is the only one that costs 18, actually. Conquest is 19 and the others are 19-20 (don't remember which).

as it stands, the Conquest looks like something that will always lose the charge, have guns that aren't very good at killing infantry, a melee pow that's not even better than other factions once you start counting in jack support

On this: Conquest will not always lose the charge. pVlad and Strakhov make him super fast. Whichever Irusk has Inhospitable Ground can slow enemies down (not Colossals though), and Gun Carriages are also useful at slowing enemies down (though again, not other Colossals.)

The big gun shouldn't have a problem killing infantry, especially with pButcher's feat or Fire For Effect or Harkevich or Strakhov letting it get extras off (Broadsides and Sentry). The chest guns will only threaten super light infantry like Daughters with the AOEs (and the pow is small enough on the Creeping Barrage that the enemy may actually chance going through it with certain heavier infantry instead of avoiding it, possibly netting you some extra kills.), though the direct shot threatens heavy infantry (not all heavy infantry gets to ARM 21 like Shocktroopers. On average you'd be putting 3 points into Demo Corps per shot, for example).

Also, Conquest has the highest melee pow of any of the Colossals and you can't say theirs is better with buffs without saying ours is also better with buffs (Fury, pButcher, Feat, HoF/Signs and Portents, etc.)

[MathPasta]

Ive played him 3 times. And.....Hes alright in the sense that your not yelling "Grr your so useless!" but your thinking "Wow- He sure is doing little for his cost"

If you play him in the back, your not using those 22 pow fists you paid for, and use him in the front, he dies so quickly it just makes me frustrated.

[MathPasta]

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[PG_ThatRickGuy]

Screen him with Kayazy/WGI/Boomies/Doom Reavers/etc?

-Rick

[ColdYinTiger]

Not sure of the point costs but I believe the Mountain King is the most expensive for what he does. I honestly think the worst part about all of the collosals is just how fragile they are. I understand they can't make them impossible to take down, but you can usually tear any of them down with less points then it costs to field one. From what I can see, he would be the second wave. You keep launching salvo after salvo on your way up, let your first wave take the incoming response then bring up the colossal to wreck havok. I am not to sure though as I don't have any of them to test out any of these theories, but be very glad you have more than one ranged attack per round. Be very, very thankful of that..... Poor Mountain King....

[MathPasta]

Screen him with Kayazy/WGI/Boomies/Doom Reavers/etc?

-Rick

Which leads to the problem of difficulty maneuvering and difficulty using the fists. And by that point your using more resources then the conquest does on his own.

[quindraco]

Conquest is better than the Mountain King. I haven't faced a Judicator yet, but it feels like he should be in competition with it for second worst.

[sourclams]

I am seeing opportunity for Conquest as a centerpiece model with eIrusk, pButcher, and pVlad. I see him being useful as a 'slow' platform primarily utilizing shooting, with capability to be an endgame finisher with eIrusk, pButch and as an aggressive fast alpha model with pVlad that can still provide shooting utility.

I tend to play Kayazy and Uhlans in most lists, so almost regardless of matchup, I have an effective screen.

Compared to MtK, I find Conquest to be eminently playable. I agree that it's not the Stormwall, but it's also not the Animanatrax.

[Scottl1]

Conquest will not always be getting charged. pVlad can give him a 15" threat range on the charge, which out threats nearly every other colossal- in fact, the only other one I can think of that even matches it is Stormwall with Kraye getting Full Tilt.

The Kraken can do 14 plus kill shot with 3gaspy or morty using just a spell. So not really that accurate. Spd 7 with 4 inches reach and a 14 in canon out threats conquest by a large margin.

[m3g4tr0n]

I've only had the opportunity to play one game with mine, but things worked out well. While the Conquest wasn't a total beatstick, it got my opponent's attention, and he opted to send in his Bane Thralls to kill it. This allowed pVlad the opportunity to casually walk around it and kill his 'caster.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

Which leads to the problem of difficulty maneuvering and difficulty using the fists. And by that point your using more resources then the conquest does on his own.

I use Kayazy to screen my jacks normally. It's an exceptionally rare day that there isn't a wall of meat shields blocking charge/trample lanes to Behemoth and Beast-09. Winterguard with tough. Kayazy with iron flesh. Shield Walled shock troopers. Or even some spread out Demo Corps, making sure that anything that is going to risk going for a jack is going to eat some free strikes.

Screening your colossal is not "using more resources", it's using the resources you have wisely.

Positioning and maneuvering can be difficult, but it's the part of the game that you have the most control over. And the more you practice screening, the better you'll get at it.

Also, if Doom Reavers get in your way, just have them kill eachother

-Rick

[MathPasta]

Im talking from my experience. I know shielding, but Conquest is 2 times bigger then an ordinary jack. Even with reach, I found maneuvery difficult.

And yes, using 10 points to protect 19 points (That are already not doing that much and is questionable in taking) is a waste.

Im sorry but its just not a good choice! People are bending around trying to justify its point:

"Oh those guns aren't SUPPOSED to be very effective. Their just supposed to scare people off"

Im sorry but the Conquest is not a buy for me. Whenever you take the conquest, your taking points that could be much better spent on better choices (That are also cheeper then its 120$ price tag)

edit:

sorry: 135$ price tag. I could get 4 jacks for the same cost.

[John of Arc]

Is putting Kayazy and Winterguard in front of Conquest even considered protecting it? How many people seriously put their infantry behind a model that's moving 4-8 inches per turn?

And @Scottl1: I meant in melee. I don't mind that much if he eats a couple boosted shots before he starts firing back.

[MathPasta]

Because the model is so big, they have to be clumped in ways I don't usually do in order to protect it.

Or if the Conquest just stays behind, then once again: You end up not utilizing its Pow 22 fists.

[John of Arc]

Because the model is so big, they have to be clumped in ways I don't usually do in order to protect it.

Or if the Conquest just stays behind, then once again: You end up not utilizing its Pow 22 fists.

Moving 4 inches a turn while shooting is *very* slow. There should be plenty of room in front of him. Don't get hung up on those fists, either. You also bought his guns. It's perfectly okay to hang back and avoid melee until a lot of your opponent's big threats are gone. Colossals are like the Butcher: hard to kill, but still pretty easy to bring down if you devote a lot of resources to doing so. So you kill as much of your opponent's army as you can, and once a lot of their heavy hitters are gone, you walk up and start dealing out beatings.

[Pero]

He costs 19pts! I think that he is realy bad becaouse he takes almost half of your army and then you realize: i dont have a single upkeep that can make it effective! That is why SW is the best colosal: he gets the most support from the rest of the army. Khador sucks at supporting.

[quindraco]

He costs 19pts! I think that he is realy bad becaouse he takes almost half of your army and then you realize: i dont have a single upkeep that can make it effective! That is why SW is the best colosal: he gets the most support from the rest of the army. Khador sucks at supporting.

We rock at general support, but agreed, we don't do so well at Colossal support; pVlad can do it, cos he can support anything under the sun, but you're still better off with him supporting something else.

[MathPasta]

Moving 4 inches a turn while shooting is *very* slow.

Which is why it isn't effective in melee.

You also bought his guns.

Which are all mostly underwhelming. One is awesome situationally, the others are a joke. Yes they can take out a few light infantries (About 1/3 for Arm 12s) but for being part of a 19 points package they need to be better. If Cygnar can have effective ranged guns on the Stormwall then why can't we? Why can't we have some interesting and reliable ranged attacks?

you walk up and start dealing out beatings.

To what? The infantry that remains? And is that what this 19 point thing is? A mop-up crew? A 19 point mop-up crew?

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

And yes, using 10 points to protect 19 points (That are already not doing that much and is questionable in taking) is a waste.

Wow, I'll remember not to use my Kayazy to screen Behemoth and Ivan any more. I mean, if using 10 points to protect 19 was a waste, using 10 points to protect 23 must be even worse!!

-Rick

[MathPasta]

Why are we even arguing about this? I find him way too expensive both in cost and real life money, suffering greatly from the flaws that plague the game (As in warjacks die to light infantry)- Nothing is going to convince me otherwise that he is worth it.

Im not trying to convince you. If you like him. Power to you.

[Boomfex]

One game with him so far.

Turn 1: R
Turn 2: pButcher feats. Crit Dev a Leviathan and about 3 Bloodgorgers...killing 1 and doing 14 damage to Leviathan. Nipple guns kill 3Bloodwitches, 2 Raiders, and a Kayazy assasin that was sent in to kill the UA.
Turn 3: Crit Dev pSkarre's screening Boarding Party, killing one and knocking the majority of the unit down. Nipple guns kill one Bloodgorger and 2 bloodwitches.
Turn 4: Charges leviathan and leaves it on 6 boxes using only initial attacks.
Turn 5: Charges pSkarre. Hits with boosted initial, leaving her at 9 boxes(she was camping 12 focus). And uses two more attacks to kill last of her screen.
My opponents then conceedes.

A valid tactic with pButcher is to kill all of the models that stand a chance at killing pButcher. Conquest gives up high P+S attacks that help acomplish this but also becomes unkillable himself at one point.