Why are Colossals FA:2??

[Lawso42]

A gaming company with a well-thought plan? Seems like blasphemy to me, I'll grab the torch if someone else can get the steak.

Mmmmmmm, steak...

I'll fire up the grill...

Lawso

[PG_cheddercaveman]

Personally I'd say they're FA: 2 because they're not characters. If they're warjacks, following suit would put them as FA: U but I suppose that could get problematic in some cases. Battle Engines are FA: 2 as well, so there is some precedent for huge base models to go on. I think it'd be hard to have them as FA: 1 and not FA: C, because then why are they only allowed one while other warjacks have no limit. I also think that having 2 of them seems like it will have some applications, and also have some draw backs since they're so many points. If you want to spend 36-40 points on 2 models, I say go for it!

[2LiveIs2Die]

It's all about the Benjamin's, baby.

[watchgeorgerock]

Why are Calvary only FA:1 then?

[Samhordes]

I'll take on FA2 Colossals. Bring it on. Building a list to stop them does not need allot of creative thought. Looking very much forward to facing against sets of two colossals in the future.

Regards,
Sam

[A8mew]

If my opponent brings 2 colossals at 35 points, I bring eCaine, Gorman DiWulfe, Squire and Reinholdt.

That's 5 points and a warcaster to kill one, and although I'm not 100% sure about how the math on this works, I'm pretty sure the other 35 points of my list could kill a colossal no matter what they're used for.

Sure, 2 colossals is going to be rough to deal with outside of utterly insane situations like eCaine feating. But you absolutely do not need to 1 round them (unless you're against Darius, in which case go and win on scenario instead) and a list at 35 points with 2 colossals will have nothing else in it.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

I am talking about Tournament play here. I Just don't see someone planning a list to deal with two colossals at 35 and 50 points. I can see someone taking something to crack 1 at that point level but not 2. I feel 2 are just too much of a meta bender at the 35 and 50 point level.

It's no worse and no better than any other specialized list. A list with two Colossals is strong against certain lists, and hard to beat with lists that are not prepared for it. But so are infantry heavy lists, strong ranged lists, lists full of incorporeal or flying models, high defense models, heck even lists full of warjacks/warbeasts. In tournament play to plan to fight lists that are maximizing a specific strength. Whether that is a Gatorman army that is immune to shooting, a Terminus army with 60 tough infantry, or a list with two Colossals.

[Lanz]

As far as I know, the fluff for Colossals (don't have the book, just read some of it) demonstrates that the nations have built huge foundries construction sites specifically for colossals. The biggest and most expensive hurdle for making something like a colossal would be building the facility capible of producing them. Once that's done mass-production is just a matter of materials.

For example; The Galleon fluff talks about the company that made it refitting a bay normally used to build ships in order to build the galleon. After that's accomplished, building a second galleon isn't much harder than building the first. Niether is the third, or the fourth galleon any harder. The materials required look to be in the range of about 3-4 heavy warjacks worth of raw materials, and while that's very expensive, it's not difficult for the military nations to come up with.

In terms of comparing it to something like the Behemoth and Thunderhead, those are characters because they're experimental prototypes, which were made individually at great expense. Actually it's easy to see a lot of the Behemoth's influence in the Conquest, and the Thunderhead's influence in the Stormwall. Both are massive by warjack standards, and the sorts of systems and equipment they pack are very similar to their respective faction's Colossals. However, both the Behemoth and Thunderhead pack equipment unique and expensive to themselves, such as the Behemoth's double-cortex, and the fact that the Thunderhead is run purely on electricity.

So why would they be able to make multiple colossals? Because they already have the means to make one colossal, so they obviously have the means to make more. By contrast why don't they make more Thunderheads and Behemoths? They could, but it's generally expressed that the costs would not justify the results.

There's probably logistic issues in there as well in terms to the limited deploy-ability of the Behemoth and Thunderhead. I'm not sure what it takes to recharge the Thunderhead, and the Behemoth probably consumes tremendous quantities of ammunition as even it's melee attacks are ballistic weapons.

Anyways, that's the fluff justification for it in my opinion. I see no mechanical reason why they can't be FA:2.

[Blaque]

Random economic reasons, my guess is to help keep production costs down. PP has stated that the rule on a card that most affects cost is FA. FA: C colossals may of cost nearly $200, since you'll only ever buy one for your army. FA:1 isn't as bad, but still makes it so that most people only buy one, making them likely to be more expensive.

FA:2 means you can buy multiples and use them in most normal games. This also has a benefit of making it so they can make more, and so make them cheaper as a result. Whether this was in the planning of how they were designed or not is one thing, but the idea that it was done to make them desirable purchases save for the "Gotta catch 'em all" seems reasonable to me.

And stuff.

[Scottl1]

Kinda funny the only jacks in mark2 fa2 are colossals and renegades! lol

[watchgeorgerock]

If my opponent brings 2 colossals at 35 points, I bring eCaine, Gorman DiWulfe, Squire and Reinholdt.

That's 5 points and a warcaster to kill one, and although I'm not 100% sure about how the math on this works, I'm pretty sure the other 35 points of my list could kill a colossal no matter what they're used for.

Sure, 2 colossals is going to be rough to deal with outside of utterly insane situations like eCaine feating. But you absolutely do not need to 1 round them (unless you're against Darius, in which case go and win on scenario instead) and a list at 35 points with 2 colossals will have nothing else in it.

Sure win on scenario with my 2 models that can't be moved

[Dan from Chicago]

Spoilers:


Actually, Denny and Gaspy have 3 Krakens a piece in the fluff, so they should be FA: 3!

Uh ... Morty's around also, so FA: 2 works just fine at 150 points

[A8mew]

Sure win on scenario with my 2 models that can't be moved

If you can't kill 1 colossal on 1 victory point, or at least get to the victory point before it does, and during this whole time you cannot come up with any way whatsoever to reach the warlock or warcaster and kill them, you have in fact lost the game yes. But your loss would have nothing to do with facing 2 colossals.

[Dan from Chicago]

Sure win on scenario with my 2 models that can't be moved

The problem with a ton of theorymachine is that it involves perfection on either your part or your theoretical opponents part. Perfection doesn't exist therefore a lot of theorymachine doesn't relate to the tabletop well at all.

I think it would be very intersting to see how a two collosal list performs at 35. I honestly think it would turn into an extreme game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, but hey ... maybe I'm wrong.

[watchgeorgerock]

What it turns into is Player with two colossals kills any threat to it and sits back and wins as his opponent slams his head into the wall.

[The_Bionic_Labrat]

I guess I am the only one who feels this way. I still think its silly that something would cost so much would be handed out in pairs to warcasters. I would like to see a typical 35point list take down Darius and 2 Stormwalls or worse Bart and 2 Galleons. At 50 points when you can run 2 Galleons with Bart rocking 24 armor that damages you when you attack it the whole game, you might see the light then. Yah yah doom doom DOOM!!!
.

butcher, fury and feat turn would like to disagree. Seriously mate, ARM20 and 2 grids isnt that hard. Look at the damage output khador can bring to the table. Big B. Great Bears. Iron Fang Pikeys. with battlelust? fury? Doom Reavers on the charge? 4d6 damage. yes, its tough. for one model. But i've taken down 2 jacks in a turn plenty times before so i dont see the issue here. Look at my Circle. heck, a feral warpwolf with Primal is putting out an average damage of about 50ts or thereabouts when you factor in 7 attacks at straight damage. and he costs half the damned points. how about crippling grasping him? and im not even tailoring to deal with him!

Dont you remember all the other DOOOOOM!!! threads where people were pointing out how easy it is for weapon master infantry to take down collossals, and that they'd be "terrible"?

Yes I understand PP is a company trying to make money.

In which case they're evolving the game. new shinies! and these one are great! i for one cant wait to get my Konquest (and yes, istill refuse to spell it with a C)

Would have anyone complained if they were FA:1?? I doubt it because everyone would have justified it due to there size and resources.

it wouldnt have bothered me at all. then again, FA2 wouldnt bother me either. the rest of the jacks are considered FA:U and jacks are actually quite rare in Khador. So... "meh".

All of you people who think im crazy. Just think about this thread when you are getting stomped by 2 Colossals and you didn't build a list to deal with it.

Or when im stomped by a control caster. or a gunline army. or infantry spam. or jack spam. big deal. all it means is that i need to evolve my thinking. which is a good thing. if you cant evolve, and raise the game to deal with a new challenge, then you're a pretty poor player. (a) not everyone will take collossals. (b) not everyone will take 2. (c) they're not suddenly going to redefine the game. you're singing the doom song here mate, and its not really that necessary.

I am talking about Tournament play here. I Just don't see someone planning a list to deal with two colossals at 35 and 50 points. I can see someone taking something to crack 1 at that point level but not 2. I feel 2 are just too much of a meta bender at the 35 and 50 point level.

meh, they're not that hard. one is straightforward. apply to 1 what you'd normally apply to 2 jacks. in the one place. So... yeah. 2? well some lists will have issues. Other lists will tear it to pieces. my 35pt eButcher tier list would have a lot of fun with a 2 collossal list when it charges in. Any hordes list with at least 1 beatstick will tear down 1 collossal a turn. it has some terrible match-ups, meaning an extreme list like this wont see play all that often. at least thats my take.

What it turns into is Player with two colossals kills any threat to it and sits back and wins as his opponent slams his head into the wall.

only when said player's opponent is in fact an idiot, or an extremely poor player. collossals are not "auto-wins". What i want to know is how it simply kills any threat to it seemingly without trying, as you seem to suggest. if you can deal with a jack or two, you can deal with a collossal.

[A8mew]

But colossals can't one round every single threat to them on the board all at once when they're spread out on two points. You're grossly overestimating the damage they can do. I mean, countering any colossal for Cryx right now is pretty much as simple as either apply Banes, or if you cannot apply enough Banes, apply Satyxis and Feedback the warcaster to death.

What, praytell, is your super double colossal army who teleports across the board to get to your victory point before you do going to do about, in no particular order:
1: Stealth
2: Heavy smashing
3: Feedback
4: Forgeguard
5: Mulg
6: Being totally ignored in favor of going for the warcaster

'cause I can't figure out one single thing a colossal can do about being totally ignored as stealthed units kill the warcaster, or what it could do about being charged by a primaled Feral Warpwolf, or a Bronzeback, or eating eCaine's feat, or any number of a dozen things used to kill a conventional heavy warjack.

[Rukus]

I can't see why everyone is worried about people wanting two in their list. What does it matter? There's basically a counter for everything in WM no unit,WJ, Beast, WE, of Collossal are invincible. Some units or some crazy good war caster can work around most things in this game regardless, especially if you play them right. E.Skarre for example her feat makes those two Collossal's observers for one round as I either walk past them and nail the caster, or I work them over for one round without being worried about being squashed by it. So let them use these guys as a point sink if they want to. If anyone is ballsy enough to put them in there at the lower point games I don't think they would be worth it. I love my infantry units more than I like my warjacks to tell you the truth anyhow. I have a few jacks I like but I usually run pretty jack light and infantry heavy anyhow and I can't see this changing too much with the addition of Collossals just means whatever I'm trying to kill isn't spread out so much. Knights/Banes Thralls will eat a Collossal just as well as they would a WJ, the only issue they would have is the squashing bit if they fail to kill it in a timely manner. But regardless anything they dish out on this bad boy would be worth the points to knock off a 19 or 20 point model. Seems like a fair trade to me. Just because they are FA 2 doesn't mean everyone will use it.

[PG_PrOtOcoN]

As a new cryx player the first thing I'm reaching for when I hear of a upcoming colossal are my pistol wraiths =D

[rwould]

They called me insane, but I'll be laughing when it's all done. Forward my disentigration ray wielding doom robots, Muwahahahah

Less maniacal note, not a lot of casters would run double colossals terribly well at low points simply because they can't include much of their support (pHaley with two stormwalls at 35 only has 2pts left and spends 4 of her focus casting TB every turn) although I think pVyros with double Hyperion has a lot of potential.

If Hyperion was out I'd probably try two of him with Vyros1 in three weeks time for the ETC. As it is going with two Stormwalls (probably with Haley1 but not decided) so you've called the casters spot on

[Dan from Chicago]

What it turns into is Player with two colossals kills any threat to it and sits back and wins as his opponent slams his head into the wall.

Then they should try harder. Your analysis would seem to indicate you believe PP did no playtesting at all. Do you have anything to back that up?

[MagnustheJust]

Who the hell is going to field two colossals anyway (excluding MagnusTheJust and other, similarly insane people)?

Actually, truth be told, I am one of the few who is anti-120mm base. I will not be getting anything on one of the huge bases, aside from the project I have been slowly working on as a spoof.

You will not see any gargossal engines in any of my armies. Ever.

[Linkdead]

"Why build one when you can have two at twice the price"

-S.R. Hadden

[kolonelk]

I guess I am the only one who feels this way. I still think its silly that something would cost so much would be handed out in pairs to warcasters. I would like to see a typical 35point list take down Darius and 2 Stormwalls or worse Bart and 2 Galleons. At 50 points when you can run 2 Galleons with Bart rocking 24 armor that damages you when you attack it the whole game, you might see the light then. Yah yah doom doom DOOM!!!

Kill Darius, win game. Kill Bart, win game. At best those two Colossals cover the frontage of your average unit, if you have more than one vector for assassination you should probably be fine. If every tournament starts being dominated by dual Colossal combos then the DOOM QQ will be justified (and probably the subject of a nerfing).

[Khador247]

I agree with the OP. I don't like the fact that they are FA2.

[watchgeorgerock]

Kill Darius, win game. Kill Bart, win game. At best those two Colossals cover the frontage of your average unit, if you have more than one vector for assassination you should probably be fine. If every tournament starts being dominated by dual Colossal combos then the DOOM QQ will be justified (and probably the subject of a nerfing).

have fun with armor 27 22 hit boxes darius.

[Menolith]

Personally I'd say they're FA: 2 because they're not characters.

i was gonna say that but its been said yay tier list with a colossal that sounds fun

[OniBeowulf]

Actually, truth be told, I am one of the few who is anti-120mm base. I will not be getting anything on one of the huge bases, aside from the project I have been slowly working on as a spoof.

I love my Cygnar Battle engine and I love my storm wall. I won't lie when they announced that Lylth3 is going to be on a huge base I got a little concerned. I hope huge bases aren't a trend. I hope they are few and far between.

[Tyr852]

have fun with armor 27 22 hit boxes darius.

I use to be a Warcaster like you , then I took an Eiryss arrow to the knee.

Just saying there is options to every scenario we just have to adapt and bring the tools for it.

[kolonelk]

"Why build one when you can have two at twice the price"

-S.R. Hadden

"Play like you've got a pair"

-M. Wilson

[Raktra]

I have the opportunity to get two free Conquests. You bet your arse I support their delicious FA:2 nature.

[MagnustheJust]

I use to be a Warcaster like you , then I took an Eiryss arrow to the knee.

Just saying there is options to every scenario we just have to adapt and bring the tools for it.

Considering becoming a Mercenary maybe??

We do this ALL DAY LONG...

[FerrusManus]

For pVyros, the caster that runs the Hyperions, you average about 5 damage with 3 charging AP angeliuses when he full camps.

He takes 22.5 damage on average if he's camping 6 focus and has Iviolable Resolve on himself (for free due to Wishnailer). Against AP attacks he's ARM 17 (9 base +6 from camp +2 from Iviolable Resolve), Angelius is P+S14, roll is 3d6-3, so 7.5 damage on average for each Angelius.

EDIT: HERP DERP ME DUMB. I completely forgot AP is balls against small bases. Yeah, it's 6.25 damage on average then.

[Demeritus]

He takes 22.5 damage on average if he's camping 6 focus and has IV on himself (for free due to Wishnailer). Against AP attacks he's ARM 17 (9 base 6 camp +2 IV), Angelius is P+S14, so dice-3. Charge damage is 10.5, so 7.5 damage on average for each Angelius.

He is talking about pVyros so he has no mount.

[watchgeorgerock]

I love how people put casters in a Vacuum, Eiyrss dies very easily to cygnar armies. It doesnt matter. I still think they should of been FA:1

[tuttleboy]

I've stood toe to toe using Vlad3 against a Stormwall for a turn and walked away with 8 boxes left, color me not that worried.

[SpiderBite]

I agree with the original post.
Colossals at FA:2 is just ridiculous.
They should be FA:U all day long.

[Hint of Insanity]

The better question is when is PP going to make you start paying points for all the coal these things burn.

When PP starts making you paying points for all the food the beasts consume...and the cost of cleanup for the waste that the food becomes

[Mastershake]

He takes 22.5 damage on average if he's camping 6 focus and has IV on himself (for free due to Wishnailer). Against AP attacks he's ARM 17 (9 base 6 camp +2 IV), Angelius is P+S14, so dice-3. Charge damage is 10.5, so 7.5 damage on average for each Angelius.

I'll say this really clearly this time, Vyros is on a small base, Angelius doing an armor piercing just gets the + 2, not halved base ARM, so pVyros remains ARM 25 and will adamently not care about 3 of Saeryn's Angeliuses.

Regardless, if anything for colossals is game breaking, I doubt it will be the FA:2. 2" weapon locks seem emphatically more stupid than simply being able to have a second colossal. The ability to grab a Stormclads sword and have the model be both physically incapable of breaking the lock or attacking with the other weapon just seems dumb.

[Antigonus]

Even if I had two Stormwalls (one is enough for me thank you) I would probably only run both of them in silly lists I make to scare people, not in any kind fo competitive setting.

p/eNemo
- Stormwall
- Stormwall
Storm Strider
Storm Strider

50 points on the nose, assuming Stormwall is 19 points...