Bastions Vs Cinerators

[Spyde]

I see people using Cineratiors over and over, but im not really sure why...

Bastions have..
Reach
harder to kill
Blessed

Cinerators have..
+2 spd if damaged...


Whats the point of taking Cinerators over bastions ever ?

[Charming]

I see people using Cineratiors over and over, but im not really sure why...

Bastions have..
Reach
harder to kill
Blessed

Cinerators have..
+2 spd if damaged...


Whats the point of taking Cinerators over bastions ever ?

You get them in the 2 player-box so people have them but not bastions which you have to get separately

[Jeor]

In my humble opinion, I like Cinerators for their ability to set most of an infantry squad on fire. But yeah, I do prefer Bastions too.

[PG_KestrelM1]

I think we have this thread like, twice a month.

Bastions are generally considered to have a better overall package of abilities. In my experience with the two I can tell you that I prefer Cinerators if you are looking for a front-line unit, but Bastions are better second-line/counter-chargers.

I also can't recommend enough that you play them with Vindictus, as he corrects two of their biggest flaws, namely speed and lack of pathfinder.

[oconnor0]

Maybe Cinerators will get a UA that makes them a viable option to take instead of Bastions; at least in certain situations.

That would be awesome. I certainly would like more of our models/units to be viable. :-)

[Snipafist]

I feel like this thread happens two to three times a month. Is the search function broken? They're fairly different models and Bastions are widely perceived as being better than Cinerators. Cinerators have a few things going for them (you neglect to mention +1arm) and I find they work pretty well with Vindictus. With the advent of Colossals, there have been occasional murmurs of using Cinerators as Colossal finishers due to the huge flame burst and because they can largely ignore the anti-infantry weapons of most colossals.

[koreandog]

...I would comment, but the last time I did, people wanted to chew off my head. I'll just say there are different strokes for different folks.

[Alzer]

I feel that it's more Bastions do what you THINK Cinerators will do. Cinerators really seem to want Defender's Ward. (They both do, but Cinerators rely on it more). Also Cinerators look to take a bit more finesse to use efficiently. Bastions are rather simple "we don't die, then we run up and murder something with Halberds." Cinerators need to be hurt to be most effective, but aren't really tougher, so they're a bit more difficult to use. I think it's largely a play style thing. But yeah I prefer having the reach+Blessed.

[oconnor0]

They're fairly different models and Bastions are widely perceived as being better than Cinerators.

You could argue that Privateer Press agrees with this now since the Menoth 25-point summer-sale (http://store.privateerpress.com/prot...rmybundle.aspx) includes Bastions and not Cinerators.

[jandrese]

I see people using Cineratiors over and over, but im not really sure why...

Bastions have..
Reach
harder to kill
Blessed

Cinerators have..
+2 spd if damaged...


Whats the point of taking Cinerators over bastions ever ?

Cinerators also have Flame Burst, and how good they are depends a lot on how much use you get out of Flame Burst. Bastions will never be good against a swarm, while Cinerators have a chance to do something. That said...I've made my feelings about Cinerators clear on other similar threads in this forum.

[Lanz]

If you have to have just one, Bastions will do more in more situations. Cinerators are a bit more specialized, but are better than Bastions in the places where you can apply their rules. For example, against shooting lists, Cinerators are generally better as their +1 ARM shrugs off a lot more POW10-range damage and their reactive speed boost either makes the opponent reluctant to shoot them, or punishes them for trying. Cinerators running after taking damage can cover a frightening amount of ground for a medium-base unit, and with the proper positioning, they can reach their targets without suffering much losses.

They are also better-suited to dealing with shield walls as flameburst will both easily affect multiple models (as the nature of shield wall places models B2B) and because fire will ignore shield wall anyways.

So between the two units, your default should probably be bastions, but if you're savvy, you'll know when Cinerators are a better pick. I find Cinerators seem to do better against Cygnar, Khador, and Skorne for example.

[jandrese]

If someone is shooting your medium base troops, they're not going to be using POW 10s unless they're Gunmages and are pushing them away at the same time. The worst part is because they don't have Reach, Cinerators are much worse at shutting down shooty troops than Bastions. It's hard to get more than a third or maybe half of the unit with medium base non-reach guys, unless you're willing to risk a freestrike or two (which might be alright, most shooty troops suck at melee--but a boosted melee attack is a danger to a Cinerator).

Both kinds of troops are pretty darn squishy without Defenders Ward or Inviolable Resolve though. If you put them in front without a buff, then almost anything can wipe the unit out with a charge. Even a cheap (3 point!) minimum unit of McThralls are a big danger, although in this case the Bastions will tend to survive better than the Cinerators.

[Errant_knight]

It also depends on points as well. Bastions are generally better when in a full squad to abuse sanguine bond that much more. Cinerators can be taken in a min unit and lose none of their effectiveness.

[Blackraine]

The only thing I like about Cinerators is that they look nice. I bought one of each just so I could have one of each, but I end up proxying them as a second unit of bastions 90% of the time.

[jandrese]

It also depends on points as well. Bastions are generally better when in a full squad to abuse sanguine bond that much more. Cinerators can be taken in a min unit and lose none of their effectiveness.

That's not entirely true. They generally don't get a SPD bonus until at least one of them is dead. If two are dead, then you're just looking at a single guy to benefit from it. On the other hand, they generally don't get the SPD bonus until they can't use it anyway, so maybe that's not a big deal.

[Murkhadh]

My buddy Tom is always raving about the cinerators

[tommy2tone]

Um...........

[darisus]

Somehow it feels like i should put a comment in here, but frankly i am way too tired of this topic to reply about them anymore....!

[Spyde]

Somehow it feels like i should put a comment in here, but frankly i am way too tired of this topic to reply about them anymore....!

You feel like you should put a comment, but your to tired to post.. yet you put a comment about making a comment that your to tired to post yet have motivation to post that you are to tired to post.

[Matthaeus]

Um...........

On behalf of the Protectorate of Menoth community, I thank you for this meaningful contribution to our collective enlightenment.

[Lanz]

On behalf of the Protectorate of Menoth community, I thank you for this meaningful contribution to our collective enlightenment.

Don't be so hard on him. He's only an elf, afterall.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Cinerators win vs. Bastions hands down, every time, so long as the comparison is limited to models. Their real advantage is that your opponent will marvel at how excellent your minis look, overlooking key troop movements!

Otherwise, temporary SPD +2 < Permanent 2" Reach. And Arm+Flameburst < Sanguine Bond.

-s&s

[shady]

I dont know you but my feeling is bastions win due to reach. yes Cins are quicker however bastions are just a bit tougher. this is and has allways been a huge debate however i wish their would be a UA or either of them cheers

[paradox]

And Arm+Flameburst < Sanguine Bond.

In actual play, I find +1ARM to often be at least as useful as the bond. If you take 8+ damage to a bastion and spread it, you are killing the whole unit faster by spreading excess damage instead of letting it disappear into the dead model. This is important because 2-3 hard hits spread into a unit (defining hard hits here to mean average or better chance at doing 8+ damage per hit) means the unit is roughly half-dead. ARM16/4 wounds over 5 models is easy to kill from there.

The only time the bond spreading damage over 7pts into the unit is beneficial is when you NEED model X to live AND there are a limited number of attacks into the bastions.

I punish the crap out of opposing menites who spread every hit like the bond is candy. It's like handing them over on a plate, and I can force them to drop more models in less attacks, or deplete wounds to the point where low-pow hits/auto-damage are going to finish the job.

Meanwhile, any time a bastion would take 8 wounds, a cinerator takes 7 and requires an additional hit with at least 1 higher POW to ensure the same chance at additional attacks dropping it. You need at least 5 attacks at high POW to kill cinerators, and each needs to be able to reach said model.

Bastions can be picked apart by picking the least-desirable model to have killed, and see if you can force the menite into giving you more models for less effort.

The short of it is that the bond is not nearly as good as it seems at first blush.

Now reach + blessed on the other hand....

[darisus]

In actual play, I find +1ARM to often be at least as useful as the bond. If you take 8+ damage to a bastion and spread it, you are killing the whole unit faster by spreading excess damage instead of letting it disappear into the dead model. This is important because 2-3 hard hits spread into a unit (defining hard hits here to mean average or better chance at doing 8+ damage per hit) means the unit is roughly half-dead. ARM16/4 wounds over 5 models is easy to kill from there.

The only time the bond spreading damage over 7pts into the unit is beneficial is when you NEED model X to live AND there are a limited number of attacks into the bastions.

I punish the crap out of opposing menites who spread every hit like the bond is candy. It's like handing them over on a plate, and I can force them to drop more models in less attacks, or deplete wounds to the point where low-pow hits/auto-damage are going to finish the job.

Meanwhile, any time a bastion would take 8 wounds, a cinerator takes 7 and requires an additional hit with at least 1 higher POW to ensure the same chance at additional attacks dropping it. You need at least 5 attacks at high POW to kill cinerators, and each needs to be able to reach said model.

Bastions can be picked apart by picking the least-desirable model to have killed, and see if you can force the menite into giving you more models for less effort.

The short of it is that the bond is not nearly as good as it seems at first blush.

Now reach + blessed on the other hand....

Pretty much right there is where people think... I want to stress the think part... that bastions are so much better then cinerators because of the bond. I often feel the bond is a trap and situationally sometimes better then +1 arm and the speed boost. In actaul play terms (which i sometimes doubt alot of people have tried), you will often get way more use out of the extra arm and speed for survivability and postioning.

[notsoevil]

I disagree with your evaluation of Bond.

It is superior, because you get to CHOOSE if you spread or give to all one model.

If I take 8 or less wounds, it is usually better to spread it out. Overall, it takes so many wounds before one drops, they're already in their second round of combat and still standing. But if they take a massive amount of wounds, I'll just let that one drop. So instead of taking 15 wounds across the unit, that last dude takes 3, dies, and the other wounds vanish.

Choosing when to do it, plus Reach, plus Blessed .. that just makes them better for me.

[koreandog]

I disagree with your evaluation of Bond.

It is superior, because you get to CHOOSE if you spread or give to all one model.

If I take 8 or less wounds, it is usually better to spread it out. Overall, it takes so many wounds before one drops, they're already in their second round of combat and still standing. But if they take a massive amount of wounds, I'll just let that one drop. So instead of taking 15 wounds across the unit, that last dude takes 3, dies, and the other wounds vanish.

Choosing when to do it, plus Reach, plus Blessed .. that just makes them better for me.

+1 to you good sir.

The +1 Arm is great for Cinnerators, but this tends to be better in many situations. Knowing how to apply the wounds on the squad makes them shine.

[Themainmenoth]

I Look at it this way, Cineraters are NOT going to feel like waisted points, and if you have them and not bastions, then you won't know what your missing, however, If you do have access to both, you'll likely see more millage out of Bastions, as a small believer of luck, who knows, your Cineraters might be out right luckier then your bastions and will out preform every time, Dice are a cruel mistress and my word is, USE BOTH (maybe not in the same game however) and see which do better for you over all.

[jandrese]

IMHO, Sanguine Bond is much more powerful than the +1 ARM. A fairly common situation is to have your troops charged, with one guy on each charge target. Lets say the first guy does 8 points of damage, you can put 7 on a different bastion and just 1 on the original target. The next guy eats a charge attack that does 10 damage but he only has one box left, so he just dies.

With Cinerators, you would have 1 guy remaining with 1 box. With Bastions you have 1 guy remaining with 7 boxes. However, with the Cinerators you now have +2 SPD you can use to really really get at the guy who is already in melee range, but Bastions could skirt around his base and attack something 2" away instead if they wanted.

[Spyde]

IMHO, Sanguine Bond is much more powerful than the +1 ARM. A fairly common situation is to have your troops charged, with one guy on each charge target. Lets say the first guy does 8 points of damage, you can put 7 on a different bastion and just 1 on the original target. The next guy eats a charge attack that does 10 damage but he only has one box left, so he just dies.

With Cinerators, you would have 1 guy remaining with 1 box. With Bastions you have 1 guy remaining with 7 boxes. However, with the Cinerators you now have +2 SPD you can use to really really get at the guy who is already in melee range, but Bastions could skirt around his base and attack something 2" away instead if they wanted.

I never thought of using it like this.. Thats rather nice. Alot of good info here, makes me learn toward buying bastions. Both have nice Pro's.. but blessed.. and Stormwall lurking around my group.

[garwjenk]

IMHO, Sanguine Bond is much more powerful than the +1 ARM. A fairly common situation is to have your troops charged, with one guy on each charge target. Lets say the first guy does 8 points of damage, you can put 7 on a different bastion and just 1 on the original target. The next guy eats a charge attack that does 10 damage but he only has one box left, so he just dies.

While I agree with you about Sanguine Bond > +1 ARM.... iirc, you can't put any damage on the original target, it all has to be spread on other unit members right?

[Alzer]

You can put damage on the original model. I regularly drop a Bastion that took an 8-9 damage hit down by 7 and hand the other 1-2 points out to squadmates. Though after the initial clash if a Bastion takes more than 7 I just soak that.

[paradox]

I disagree with your evaluation of Bond.

It is superior, because you get to CHOOSE if you spread or give to all one model.

If I take 8 or less wounds, it is usually better to spread it out. Overall, it takes so many wounds before one drops, they're already in their second round of combat and still standing. But if they take a massive amount of wounds, I'll just let that one drop. So instead of taking 15 wounds across the unit, that last dude takes 3, dies, and the other wounds vanish.

Choosing when to do it, plus Reach, plus Blessed .. that just makes them better for me.

I think you are actually agreeing with me, more or less. The difference is what qualifies as too many wounds to spread, especially as compared to cinerators.

As for making it past a round of combat, that is all table-dependant, such as the spacing of models. If something is dealing 8ish wounds per hit, it's probably a heavy. A heavy can make 4 swings froma full load. If you are spreading those 8ish wounds per hit, you'll have 5 bastions with 1-2 life left each. And that's from a single activation. It's incredibly easy to pick the unit off from there in ~5 more much lighter attacks.

POW17 reach heavy is not uncommon.

Therefore, a canny opponent who knows how to exploit the bond could make short work of the bastions. The same sort of hittig power and situation vs cinerators is generating less danage per swing, meaning that where bastions are sharing a full health bar worth of life, a single cinerator is likely living, requiring another swing.

Of course, vs a single 'jack, you may just kill the bastions in range. Now, they are dying as easy, or easier, than cinerators.

The bond is not that great at extending longevity of the unit as a whole vs cinerators. It only really helps you decide WHICH models you want to keep, not how many.

[paradox]

IMHO, Sanguine Bond is much more powerful than the +1 ARM. A fairly common situation is to have your troops charged, with one guy on each charge target. Lets say the first guy does 8 points of damage, you can put 7 on a different bastion and just 1 on the original target. The next guy eats a charge attack that does 10 damage but he only has one box left, so he just dies.

With Cinerators, you would have 1 guy remaining with 1 box. With Bastions you have 1 guy remaining with 7 boxes. However, with the Cinerators you now have +2 SPD you can use to really really get at the guy who is already in melee range, but Bastions could skirt around his base and attack something 2" away instead if they wanted.

You're assuming a unit charge. A single model capable of multiple swings ('jack/'beast), especially with reach, can beat several bastions with multiple attacks, leaving the rest of the unit easy pickings.

[jandrese]

In the case that you have something like that, there's not much either type of troop can do to stay alive. Obviously if you're talking about a fully loaded jack or beast beating on a Bastion then you just want to let it die and give the guys out of range a shot at living. Spreading the wounds around so that one jack can kill the whole unit would be dumb. Neither unit will survive against a fully loaded P+S 17 heavy with reach to everybody frankly. Theoretically the Cinerators could all be left with 1 wound, but in practice the variability of the attacks means maybe 1 guy lives vs. dies over the course of the attack, and near the end of the attack you might be able to use Sanguine Bond to save a guy anyway.

If you're being attacked by something like a Warpwolf Stalker that put up its Berzerk ability, you're pretty much hosed regardless of what you do or which troop you take. They're all going to die.

[darisus]

Paradox and i seem to be some of the few that get it about Cinerators.... Really they are not Bastions and have there own advantages in comparison. I just don't get why everyone seems to think the bond is so great? It is just really a modified version of self-sacrifice and has similar uses, it doesn't really do all that much. The bigger issue between the 2 units is reach+blessed vs flameburst.

Different units, do different things. The only thing they really have in common are being exemplar and on medium bases, otherwise they play totally different from each other.

[jandrese]

Different units, do different things. The only thing they really have in common are being exemplar and on medium bases, otherwise they play totally different from each other.

Well, that and the nearly identical statlines and P+S and number of attacks and weaponmaster and point cost.

[PG_gdaybloke]

One's a defensive meatwall, the other's anti-infantry-swarm. I can't help but feel that comparing the two is erroneous. Their commonality is in being medium based, multi-wound exemplars, but in my experience their battlefield role is distinctly different.

[Craaag]

I just purchased Bastions, Stormwalls are lurking all over the place (even I have 1 now). I've never felt the need for these lumbering multi wound troopers before but I guess as our infantry dies in droves to lightning all over the place either Bastions or Cinerators will be nice to have.

The thing I really like about Bastions is the durability when you put an ARM buff on them. Of course an ARM buff on Cinerators will benefit them nicely too but the ability to spread damage around..or not to is key I think. Saying this isn't useful is like saying the Errants self sac isn't useful. There are times when it isn't going to help but then again there are times it will.

[paradox]

One's a defensive meatwall, the other's anti-infantry-swarm. I can't help but feel that comparing the two is erroneous. Their commonality is in being medium based, multi-wound exemplars, but in my experience their battlefield role is distinctly different.

I agree with this. But it is also still possible to compare their defensive abilities. I would say that it may very well be that folks who feel bastions are FAR more survivable have not spent serious time comparing the actual durability of bastions vs an opponent who knows the best ways to exploit the bond.
I may be wrong, but I know from personal experience that once my regular opponents figured out the breaking point in wound-spreading, it often enough seems like spreading 9+ points is foolish, and spreading 8 is highly questionable. The real question is how valuable is model X to you, and how much are you willing to pay to keep him there. And also how much is your opponent counting on you paying that cost.