Kayazy eliminators with pButcher or IF caster

[philipcryx]

Hey guys and gals,

I just pick up these two deadly ladies last night and was wondering what everyone thinks of them with pButcher? I guess i should ask what everyone thinks of them with a caster with Iron Flesh or of them in general.

I have yet to run them but stats and abilitiy wise i like them...i think the basic plan with them is to run them into combat with IF on them, not against something that can boost to hit, the acrobat them out to the desired target.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

I run Butcher1 with Kayazy, lots of Kayazy. I'm actually thinking about getting a second set of Eliminators just for him (and for Vlad3 too...).

Although I typically save IF for the regular Kayazy. I have 1 Kayazy with red hair, he sits next to Butcher all the time. I don't upkeep IF, so the Kayazy can run/charge unhindered. Then I activate butcher and case IF after they've moved. Then on feat turn, I cast Fury on them (again, targeting the red head so I don't have to be quite so far up field), charge up field, and feat. Letting the Kayazy minifeat and charge through enemy lines to get to the caster.

Eliminators are in the same boat, only it would be harder to keep butcher safe while being close enough to cast Fury.

-Rick

[Krazy_Ivan]

I generally don't even bother with it as IF on a full unit of something else is generally a better use of resources. Sure there are situations where it might be nice, but i don't include eliminators for the purpose of giving them IF. Their ability operate completely independently of your main force is whats really nice about them.

[scout's honor]

I generally don't even bother with it as IF on a full unit of something else is generally a better use of resources.

This.

I might put Fury on them when the situation calls for it, but I've not been in a situation so far where it would be more beneficial to put IF on the Eliminators than either on a larger unit or on my caster. Being just two models and having that high a base DEF, anything that can take them out can take them out under IF just the same.

[Auracco]

I generally don't even bother with it as IF on a full unit of something else is generally a better use of resources.

^This.

I think you get more out of iron flesh on a 10 man unit than on a 2 man unit.
Their def is already high enough that your opponent will use blast or other auto hitting attack to deal with them.

[Saekyn]

My Eliminators either do not survive or win me the game. I don't think I've ever had a game where they stayed alive without dealing the death-blow themselves. That being said, I can understand why trying to boost their def would be great, but in melee they're already def 17, and keeping a spell upkept on them just seems like unnecessary overkill to me. Since they only have to hit the unit twice to kill it off most times, if they're going to hit the girls at def 17, they'll hit them at def 20. At least, has been my experience =/

[philipcryx]

Thanks, so IF is better placed on a different unit. Wicked.

[PG_dbsmash]

Their ability operate completely independently of your main force is whats really nice about them.

+1 [10 chars]

[Binz]

Thanks, so IF is better placed on a different unit. Wicked.

Yep, I agree also.

The great thing about eliminators is that they do not NEED support. They work extremely well with support, but they dont need it. When you take Gang and Combo Strike into consideration, plus always-on Acrobatics, they have high MAT, high DEF and high POW, as well as ridiculous speed and the ability to walk and target through models.

The kind of support that they will like most of all is Control Area wide support, so things like Signs and Portents, Butchers feat, etc. That way you dont waste buffs on a small unit, and you help them out immensely while also helping out your main army. (Signs and Portents for example, they are *effectively* MAT 11!)

[Seventhprophet]

I have definitely put Iron Flesh on them once or twice. Its pretty nice. They are usually the break away that can run through enemy lines and right up next to a caster. Usually it creates a situation where you have to deal with them before that caster can move again or risk some brutal free strikes in their back arc. Usually its with iron witch though who can arc IF into them from a safe distance after they run. Its very effective.

[Seventhprophet]

Double post

[philipcryx]

I am going with a Kayazy assassin full unit with UA and Eliminator army with the butcher..i will post in list for ppl thoughts

[nosrek]

I run two units of kayazy eliminators with pIrusk. It's quite brutal honestly. I never bother with iron flesh as def 17 in melee is enough.

I use them two ways.

1. Move up table quickly using acrobatics to plant one or two in melee with the enemy caster or behind an important solo and make them either deal with it or risk a free strike. Note I run them into these positions. I only charge with them if I am...

2. I play them back behind my unit of IFP. When the IFP get bogged down the eliminators charge in and do their side stepping acrobatic madness and clear up the jamming units.

pIrusk is a madman with his little 6 pt harem. The harem gives me serious board control by shutting down key pieces and they offer serious damage potential and accuracy. They are my favorite part about playing khador.

Oh and when I have bears and the harem the groans begin!

[Jrandom36]

Since IF stops them from charging, that is bad. You will want to wait till after the charge to put it on.

With only 2 models, and needing them both to get the gang bonus (where with the Assassins, you can easily leave one behind), your caster is going to have to be right up in your enemies grill to get within range.

I think you are better off casting Fury pre-charge and take their extra attack instead of using Combo Strike.

[Tyr852]

I will just chime in that if you can swing it buy a second unit of the eliminators , they are very good and even better when you have a second unit of them as their biggest weakness is if one dies you need to take command check.

[PG_Caecus Scius]

I like taking regular Kayazy with IF casters, but taking eliminators with non IF casters. However Pbutcher can make them all run well, hit hard and kill anything.

[philipcryx]

Ok so save from starting another thread about something similar...the Kayazy assassins. I have the underboss but i dont know if i should run a min or max unit at the 25/35 point level. The point levels i play are mostly 25/35 games and some 15 if i have time after the 25/35 point game. Thoughts?

[scout's honor]

I will just chime in that if you can swing it buy a second unit of the eliminators , they are very good and even better when you have a second unit of them as their biggest weakness is if one dies you need to take command check.

I don't see the big improvement towards command checks from taking two units. Massive casualties are still counted for each unit separately.

[Tyr852]

Right but if you only have one unit and it loses 1 and you fail that check you are basically out that entire toolset till you rally , where if you bring 2 unit you have redundancy as normally you want a unit like that to do something more then just tie up bodies. 4 of them also take down things much faster but ymmv on it.

[Flak Maniak]

Often, as in the case of a 'caster kill, you just need one unit, so an additional unit very effectively mitigates the command check et cetera for losing one Eliminator from one unit. If you just need one unit intact to do what you want then you should take two. If they're seeing more tactical, less strategic use, then I would say it doesn't particularly matter if you take one or two units. Should be fairly linear in results. That said, if you are just using them tactically I feel you're using them wrong. They're really vulnerable but the strategic possibilities they open are incredible. I always run four with eVlad and protect them like sacred treasure. Even POW10s will usually kill them.

As for Iron Flesh, you would have to cast it either after they activate, or just run to engage with them, neither of which seem that great, and you'd still be lacking IF on a bigger unit. I could see doing it occasionally, but I wouldn't particularly plan on it.

As a side note, their potential to kill 'casters consistently outside of eVlad hinges in large part on damage and/or accuracy buffs. Most 'casters aren't so easily dispatched.

Lastly, they're amazing with eVlad. They're the core of my eVlad lists. (I have just been playing eVlad at 25, so you may or may not find my analysis accurate for other points values.) My goal is to get them into position to kill the 'caster when they can't effectively camp, or threaten the 'caster so they have to camp. I usually use my feat for purposes other than assassination and often try to assassinate the next round. They don't need feat to kill 'casters if they have Transference and Hand of Fate available, so don't save your feat thinking you need that sweet feat assassination. Now obviously it varies by 'caster and for example killing a pVlad under Blood of Kings probably needs the feat, but use your judgment. It's HoF and Transference that push them over the edge against most 'casters.

[ManIntheMachine]

Pbutcher
-Jugger
-Kodiak
-Wardog
Max Demo Corp
Max Kayazy + UA
Eliminators
Eliminators

That's the list i've been using most recently. I might give the eliminators fury (def16 in melee is still hard to hit), but they are usually problem-solvers that i need to give very little support to

[ManIntheMachine]

EDIT: Sry, double post

[philipcryx]

Pbutcher
-Jugger
-Kodiak
-Wardog
Max Demo Corp
Max Kayazy + UA
Eliminators
Eliminators

That's the list i've been using most recently. I might give the eliminators fury (def16 in melee is still hard to hit), but they are usually problem-solvers that i need to give very little support to

that is crazy because that is pretty much the army i am looking to run...so it preforms well?

[ManIntheMachine]

@Philipcryx

It has problems with rough terrain and anti-stealth, but it's quite fun, and nobody likes seeing all that melee backed up by Butcher

[philipcryx]

@Philipcryx

It has problems with rough terrain and anti-stealth, but it's quite fun, and nobody likes seeing all that melee backed up by Butcher

noted, all i am missing is the Kayazy assassins and the other unit of Eliminators...I found the UA for cheap and figured by not Kayazy.

[Skylifter]

I think IF on them isn't that great. One of their main strengths is their high speed, which allows for a lot of the moves that make up their value.

In certain situations, however, it can be awesome. If you can get them to within roughly 12 inch of the enemy caster while keeping them somewhat safe for the turn, then on the next turn cast IF on them and just run them to engage the enemy caster, they'll be DEF 20 in melee, DEF 24 vs. ranged attacks. Yourt opponent then has to do something about them and has to keep his focus or cannot really move his caster much. Good if you need to stall his caster for a turn or two.

But that is mostly theoretical, since it is a move that's rarely worth making it your main game plan, and if the situation comes up unplanned, chances are you'll have a lot of other and possibly better options to use the eliminators.