is legion broken? (trouble with my group)

[Steamwitch]

I fist and foremost play khador but wanted to play some hoards as we have a circle and trollbloods player. I choose legion as i was tired of being slower than cold treesap. I have thag1and typhon and the battle box and a pair of stingers and a rake. Every time i take legion out im met with groans particularly with typon and thag i like attrition via khador and a regenerating dragon i can resurect sounded cool we play mostly 15pt games. Is legion just good in that vacume? I fear eventually i wont ever get to play this army after dropping a chunk of cash on them, frankly its dissapointing. Eyeless sight is the main gripe they have im familliarwith thenickname everBROKEN. butim not seei g it. Is this game not balanced by points? Typhonis12/15 of course he is gonna be good! Idk i just needsome honest blighted advicethanks.

[thewisp]

Your first problem is your playing 15 points. The game scales better at higher points like 35 and 50. TBH its not really fun to kill a typhoon and watch it resurrect at turn later at that small point value.

[rivenwyrm]

Well, for starters at 15pts bringing back 12pts of your army is actually kind of broken. But the game isn't balanced at 15pts. Try to move your play up to 25 or 35 pts. Your friends will feel much less like they're starting a losing battle before it begins. I started with Khador myself, and played more than a year before starting Legion up, but I haven't gotten many groans. The key is to try to minimize how often people are caught unawares by your rules. Explain your models to them. You don't have to go so far as to explain your strategy or tactics, but I often give a bit of a heads up to my opponents about the nastier things in wait (for instance, pVayl + Ravagore is 23" threat). This makes people feel less like they're walking into a slaughterhouse.

As well, Legion is good, but honestly no better than any other faction. It's incredibly squishy even with defensive animi. We don't have a lot of "bad" matchups, and we often have a tool for most problems, but Khador and Cryx have a far higher "in the top 5" tournament placement % than Legion.

[ShockwaveIIC]

The smaller the game, the more powerful pThagrosh's feat is. That is the cause of the problem. It won't matter if your bring back a Scythean, Ravagore, Carnivean or Typhon it will have a massive impact at that point level, it will be a little more than an inconvenience at 50 pts (I've personally seen bringing back a 2pt Harrier being the game winner).

[Neutralyze]

Pthags is the man at low or games.

[gomu ningen]

Hey if you get to higher point values and they still complain just move to colorado and we'll set you straight to where you will never think legion is broken....lol

[Steamwitch]

double dip.

[Steamwitch]

yarg, sorry wonky cell!

[Crate123]

Eyeless sight makes everyone cry, it is super powerful and one of the defining traits of legion for sure but other factions have their own defining traits (such as tough for trolls and undead for cryx). Its only bad if the opponent brings an army that was supposed to survive via stealth or clouds.

[Steamwitch]

alright, i think i will just devorce thag and typhon till 25-35pts. I should play a bit nicer i suppose. Looking on it now our circle player was the bigger naysayer and all he runs is eKaya and 2 ferals.

[Kalaris]

Remind them that your carnivean costs 11pts. legion pays for that eyeless sight. other factions can get 2 warjacks for the price of our carnivean.

but yes Pthags is pretty unfair at 15pts, (so is absylonia, for a similar reason)

[Madhiggins]

to really put people who say legion are op in their place, you need to know about the broken things in other people's armies. skorne players have paingivers to give out +2 str to beasts and an abundance of fury 5 beasts. trolls have all tough rolls, a solo that poops out walls, and pyg diggers. circle has primaled warp strengthed over buffed beasts and tree arc nodes(i would kill to have a reusable arc node in any of my legion lists). when you match up to all of that, pathfinder and eye less sight on beasts doesn't seem so bad. and if they say "oh well legion always wins the big tournaments" then you just need to point out that over half the time the winner is the same person and that it's the player and not the army that wins.

[PG_dbsmash]

Oftentimes I find people complain about Legion being 'broken' because they focus on eyeless sight right off the bat, and often that one ability negates the kinds of things many people depend on. Forests, clouds, stealth - all of those standard defensive tools become meaningless. The savvy player will simply realize that against Legion, they need different tools, but it can take a while to figure out.

I would point this out to the other plays in your meta and try to explain different defensive strategies. For example, I hate running into a bunch of warriors when I play Legion (that could just be me), and of course cover is still useful. It can be hard, but nothing aggravates plays like seeing their dependable defensive strategies rendered useless. Just try to help them find new ways to stay safe against you

And of course, make sure you are following the fine print on thag's fear (the returned beast has no actions that turn). That makes it a little easier to stomach

[OminousAfro]

Pthags is the man.

Fixed. (10 chars)

[Protest the Shredder]

Also might be good to make sure they realize if they remove the beast from play it can't be feated back. Troll heavies are a "Tough" match up for Pthags feat with the abundance of Snacking. Granted you can bad blood the beast that's matched up with the beast your planning on feating. Also if that circle player is playing Ghetorix. Might be time to warp snacking for once.

[Postazure]

It's the 15pts issue. If you move it up to even 25pts you'll see a huge cut down on the whining.

But yes the Colorado suggestion is really the best one.

[Steamwitch]

for a 15pt game how would this list look?

eLilith
Ravagore
Stinger
Stinger
Stinger
Shredder

Would this be too much or fine? I just wanted to try shooting fire around.

[Hussar]

They might cry BS the first time you hit them with those 18" Ravagore blasts, but let them. At 15pts this game is, as previously noted, severely unbalanced.

Scale up and it'll eventually sort itself out.

[themocaw]

That ELylyth list should do fine until Strakhov shows up.

[Teya]

eLilith
Ravagore
Stinger
Stinger
Stinger
Shredder

It's only 13pt.

[Achiles]

Also be aware her feat won't increase the range of the Stingers' sprays. However it will give them a second shot which is always nice! :-)

[Teya]

eLylith
Ravagore
Ravagore
This list is better, but maybe some "broken" again.
You also can take this:
eLylith
Ravagore
Nephilim Bolt Thrower
Stinger or Shredder
Forsaken or Strider Deathstalker

[Teya]

double post

[Steamwitch]

im mainly trying to keep my lists to beasts simply because khador was not the jack faction i thought it was. But i can add a harrier now

[Ordrek]

Don't forget Teraphs with Lylyth2. She is the one caster that can make them great, and you can get two for the price of one Ravagore.

[Episkopos]

Yeah, but Ravagore is more than twice as good than two Teraphs.

[ShockwaveIIC]

If you want more crys of broken take the eLylyth list

eLylyth
-Ravagore
-Bolt Thrower
-Shredder
Shepherd
Gobbers

Gobber cloud protects the Shepherd and blocks LOS for Charges. Shepherd allows you to go hot on the Ravagore everyturn. You have Eyeless sight so don't care about the cloud, not to mention battlegroup Stealth.

I'll be surprised if you make friends with that list.

[Tanglethorn]

Also, keep in mind that Legion warbeasts have really long threat ranges that ignore most terrain and stealth. You really need to play your caster far in the backfield and let your beasts\jacks do all the heavy work. This mean constantly measuring your Control area so everything in your battlegroup is always in it while you play as far back as you can in the backfield. Thats how most veterans avoind legion casers kills.

Or you could just play Elylyth and just kill everything your opponent has leaving him with nothing on the board. People will really hate u for it lol.

[Trollz]

For those that cry broken (I have heard it for almost every faction I've played) I suggest that they spend their time actually learning how to play and not whining. So many whiners in general these days, no one wants to learn from their mistakes, they just want to keep cramming a square peg into the circular hole hoping that they'll be the special one that makes it work.

Honestly, if their whining becomes such a problem, suggest having them play your faction and you play theirs for a game, mop the floor with them and be done with it. If they can still muster the ignorant pride to still whine, I wouldn't play them again.

[Neutralyze]

Legion is underpowered

[Cambeul]

If the cries of Broken and Cheese start to weigh heavy on your soul, come over to the Cryx forums for a hug. We know the pain you feel, and we have cookies.

I think the big thing is, at least from when I notice while fighting Legion, as well as Cryx, is they are on the far end of how they fight that alot of people have trouble adapting to that. Just because you can beat one faction, does not mean you can beat them all.

Also as others have stated, some Casters tend to dominate a certain point bracket, move them up, or even down and they are not as bad.