War Room and MKIII

[ringsnake]

I'd heard a reasonably solid rumor (50% chance of being true) that there will be an interim Mk 2.5 before Mk III that is more of an adjustment to existing cards. There'd be an "adjustment deck" with the cards from all the factions that are changed.

For example, PP may decide that Sentry Stones are both weak, and have ludicrously complex rules, and release a new card and rules for it. If true, there's only a few models in each faction where they're so powerful they go in every army no matter what, or are so weak that nobody playing to win would ever use them. It wouldn't cost too much to get the "upgrade pack"

Also, PP seems to have built their business model on copying everything that GW does right (art, background, simple and well edited rules set, interesting factions) while avoiding everything GW does wrong (alienating their customers, arbitrary price hikes, treating retailers like the enemy, faction imbalance) so I wouldn't expect PP to be releasing a Mk III any time soon.

[Thanan]

[Citation Needed]

Privateer Press owns the copyright for both Warmachine and Hordes, those laws cannot apply.

Regarding that citation - at WMW last year, DC and Ed stated that due to differing IPs and copyright laws, the two systems would be maintained separately as independent but compatible entities. They also stated that there would likely not be a full blown mk 3 for "many years".

[jandrese]

Regarding that citation - at WMW last year, DC and Ed stated that due to differing IPs and copyright laws, the two systems would be maintained separately as independent but compatible entities. They also stated that there would likely not be a full blown mk 3 for "many years".

That makes no sense unless they contracted out to someone to make Hordes and failed to write the contract properly. Last time I checked, both systems had the same (except for the humorous bits aimed at pirates) copyrights.

The only thing stopping them as far as I can tell is that the book title would be awkward. They would have to come up with a name for the system itself, like "Full Metal Tabletop" so they could release the Full Metal Tabletop Rules Compendium or something to that effect.

[HeadHunter]

How is it absurd, wanting to know that if I drop money on digital cards, that I already own hard copies of, they won't be worthless in a year or two?

Because you want an answer that relies on two things: A product that has yet to be released; and a product that has yet to even be announced.
If an answer were provided, it would, by nature have to be speculative. Unless you have a crystal ball or time travel, it's kind of hard to get answers from the future.

[HRM]

Warmachine and hordes are not the same game, let's get that straight, so your numbers are a little skewed.

Yes they are. Again - I don't give a whoa WHAT they say, they're the same thing. Distinguishing them like they do is unnecessary and sometimes confusing to new players.

[Xarian]

Regarding that citation - at WMW last year, DC and Ed stated that due to differing IPs and copyright laws, the two systems would be maintained separately as independent but compatible entities. They also stated that there would likely not be a full blown mk 3 for "many years".

That gives them the ability to license WM or Hordes IP without licensing the other. For example, they may license me the Hordes logo to make Hordes coffee cups, but I would be in breach of copyright laws if I were to put a Warmachine logo on the same coffee cups, since I didn't have a license for that. Among other things.

[HeadHunter]

Precisely - PP cannot be limited by its own copyrights, because they hold both. It's not like PP is going to sure PP for infringement. If they wanted to combine them, there's nothing stopping them.

[PG_UndeadDan]

Precisely - PP cannot be limited by its own copyrights, because they hold both. It's not like PP is going to sure PP for infringement. If they wanted to combine them, there's nothing stopping them.

Read the post above yours.

[HeadHunter]

I did - and I wanted to clarify why deademon is dead wrong. They CAN combine them, they're legally able to combine them... they merely choose not to, in the interest of being able to license either property individually. Let us not mistake their choice for some external limitation that is beyond their control.

I do so wish people would take a moment to understand what I've written before admonishing me to read what I already demonstrably understand.

[PG_UndeadDan]

I do so wish people would take a moment to understand what I've written before admonishing me to read what I already demonstrably understand.

There is no need to get rude or snippy.

there's nothing stopping them

...isn't exactly accurate. They have already set up at least one licensing deal, if not more that we don't know about. Any deal in place would effectively stop them from combining the properties.

[Lich_Lord_X]

Yes they are. Again - I don't give a whoa WHAT they say, they're the same thing. Distinguishing them like they do is unnecessary and sometimes confusing to new players.

Actually it's not confusing. They have two separate rules systems and two different names. There's a reason why they tell Press Gangers not to demo the two games together. Learning the Rules to Warmachine doesn't teach you the rules to Hordes and vice versa. That by definition makes them two different games that just so happen to be completely compatible.

[HRM]

Actually it's not confusing. They have two separate rules systems and two different names. There's a reason why they tell Press Gangers not to demo the two games together. Learning the Rules to Warmachine doesn't teach you the rules to Hordes and vice versa. That by definition makes them two different games that just so happen to be completely compatible.

You really think they're two seperate rules systems? OK. We'll have to agree to disagree.

As far as I'm concerned, Hordes doesn't exist. There's a game I play, called Warmachine, with 11 factions. Some models use slightly different rules than others.

[Wishing]

As far as I'm concerned, Hordes doesn't exist. There's a game I play, called Warmachine, with 11 factions. Some models use slightly different rules than others.

And I guess it's nice that there is the flexibility that people can see the games in different ways. Personally, I don't look at the rules as being defining for the games' identity, I look at the design style and thematic content. Looking at WM, I see a game set in a steampunk industrial world about steam-engine robots fighting each other. Looking at Hordes, I see a game set in a savage fantasy world with trained and enslaved monsters fighting each other. Different looks, different themes, different styles. So I see them as two separate games that sometimes overlap, and which you can fully combine if you want to, at your own risk.

Regarding Mk3, I think the biggest hurdle for PP in this regard is that they never make any of their releases obsolete, so their game lines just keep growing and growing. For Mk2, they had a certain number of releases they had to redesign, rebalance and re-playtest. For Mk3, they will have twice that number of releases to go through the same process with, ie. twice as much work. So as the years gradually pass by, the more difficult and extensive it becomes to redesign their whole range from scratch. This makes me think that Mk3 might not come about in the same way as Mk2 did, because it's just not sustainable in the long term.

[Ysthrall]

I think of Hordes and Warmachine as mirror images of each other. They're similar in the little things (stat + 2d6), but some of the more important bits (Fury/Focus) are completely the reverse of the other. They fit together well, if occasionally confusingly (animi/spell/effect/skill check), but they're two distinct, if closely related, games. Non-identical twins, perhaps...

As to the OP, I suspect it will be as many years as they possibly can before PP look seriously at Mk3. And probably by then we'll all have computer tablets with pop-up rules, projected cards, and a 24hr Infernal hotdesk anyway. So I think you're safe buying cards for now.

[jandrese]

Yeah, none of that Marvel licensing mess applies to PP unless they've done something crazy with the Whitemoon Dreams game.

Anyway, as far as the rule sets being different, both the Warmachine and Hordes rules are around 60 pages each, including stuff like terrain placement, index, etc... Combined they would be around 65 pages by my estimate.

[Unknown_Lifeform]

Anyway, as far as the rule sets being different, both the Warmachine and Hordes rules are around 60 pages each, including stuff like terrain placement, index, etc... Combined they would be around 65 pages by my estimate.

True, but the rules only make up a fraction of the actual rulebook. Including stuff like game and faction background, modelling/painting and faction rules you'd end up with a rulebook almost twice as thick (and twice as expensive?) which is probably the real reason why they don't combine the two games - they want to keep the core rulebooks cheap to encourage new entrants.

[jandrese]

True, but the rules only make up a fraction of the actual rulebook. Including stuff like game and faction background, modelling/painting and faction rules you'd end up with a rulebook almost twice as thick (and twice as expensive?) which is probably the real reason why they don't combine the two games - they want to keep the core rulebooks cheap to encourage new entrants.

The point was to release a mini rulebook that had both WM and Hordes rules like Malifaux does. You could then release a cheaper "fluff, models, and art" book for Prime.

[Blighted Tyrant]

*shrug* I dunno man. The Primal MKII rulebook taught me how to play Warmachine. I don't even play a Hordes faction, but I've never bothered pick up Prime, because I don't need it. The rules are, like, 90% identical.

Regardless of mechanical similarities, my point was made based on the thematic elements being in the majority different from the Warmachine books which gives the game a different feel if one immerses themselves in the context, this is done by linking the thematic elements of transferring damage for example that although is a small amount of the mechanic has a radical affect on the game.

The fact you learned to play the basic rules from the Primal book is a non-point as it just proves the two systems share a core, however I am sure you were taught the Focus mechanic and did not glean this from Primal. So stating you can learn the basic system from either book really does nothing that state the obvious.

The Games were designed to be Stand Alone entities that can interact with one another.

[HRM]

Regardless of mechanical similarities, my point was made based on the thematic elements being in the majority different from the Warmachine books which gives the game a different feel if one immerses themselves in the context, this is done by linking the thematic elements of transferring damage for example that although is a small amount of the mechanic has a radical affect on the game.

The fact you learned to play the basic rules from the Primal book is a non-point as it just proves the two systems share a core, however I am sure you were taught the Focus mechanic and did not glean this from Primal. So stating you can learn the basic system from either book really does nothing that state the obvious.

The Games were designed to be Stand Alone entities that can interact with one another.

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. They're so similar as to render the distinction irrelevant.

[Blighted Tyrant]

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. They're so similar as to render the distinction irrelevant.

Utilising that logic a Lemon and a Lime are essentially the same fruit, Fantasy and 40k the same game and the sky and ocean on the basis they are both blue.

It is the subtle nuances that make them individual and if you cannot or will not appreciate them then I feel you are removing some of the joy from the systems.

[Mod_Donaldbain]

Last I checked this was the Privateer Press forums, not the Marvel Comic movie rights forum. We offer a lovely off topic forum for discussions like that.

And I should have to tell you to keep it polite and civil, but here I am telling you to keep it polite and civil.

Donald

[Circle noob]

i m on the hordes and warmachine should be one game side.

the only difference between hordes and warmachine are the rules for jacks, beasts, locks and casters. and even those rules are pretty similiar. everything else is the same stuff. hordes units und warmachine share one ruleset. if both werent the same game, then why do they share magic spells? def ward anyone?

the only reason i see for keeping them seperated is making more money by selling more books (besides that legal mumbo jumbo).

the argument, pp tells us to see the hordes and warmachine as two different games, so i gotta think along those lines is just plane silly to me. checkers and chess are two different games. the settlers of catan and monopoly are two seperate games. warhammer 40 k and dystoppian wars are different games. hordes and warmachine are not!
anyway, thats is just my opinion, pls. feel free to disagree

[Wishing]

I am feeling free to disagree, and doing so!

Edit: To clarify a bit more, obviously there is no right or wrong opinions here, there is just an official distinction and people that disagree with it. The reason I agree with it can probably best be explained by analogy as if PP was a chef serving up tasty dishes.

If PP was a chef, they might present us with a finely crafted dish of spaghetti bolognese, which is tasty and great. Later on, they also make a dish of beef chow mein, which they present to us on the same menu as the spaghetti. The dishes are quite similar in many ways, being a mix of cow meat and pasta-based carbs. PP are presenting these to us as separate dishes, which can be eaten together if desired.

Some people prefer one dish over the other, others like them both equally. Other people don't think it is important that the dishes come from different parts of the world and have different flavours and styles, but feel that because the ingredients are essentially the same, they should be treated as one dish. They therefore order both dishes and mix them together on their plate, enjoying the mix of the two dishes as though they were one dish, and getting twice as much food.

Neither approach is right or wrong, people are free to do whatever they want with the dishes once they have bought them. One group is keeping the products separate, the way they are presented by the designers, because they like to appreciate the flavours and qualities of the products separately. The other group does not think that these flavours and differences gain anything from being separate, and therefore mix them together, because that makes sense to them.

The only problem with this scenario is when either group insists that they are right and the others are wrong - ie. either saying that the two products should *not be allowed* to be mixed, or saying that the products should *not be sold separately* and should come pre-mixed from the start.

[x3tsniper]

So much thread derailment! You are all fired!

[Wishing]

True, it's hard to tell that this was once about War Room and Mk3.

[HeadHunter]

True, it's hard to tell that this was once about two products that haven't been released yet (if ever).

And with that, we come to understand why an official answer is still not forthcoming. It's very hard to stay on topic when the topic is so speculative.