Relying on Warpwolves is bad for druidic business

[eLdritch]

Forget what I said, Warpwolves are the most overpowered thing in the game.

Here's my new list:

eKaya
Feral
Feral
Feral
Stalker
Stalker
Gorax
Shifting Stones

Reinforcements:
Stalker

I know I know amazing list. Y'all welcome!

[eLdritch]

reserved for more...

bear with me guys it's not my first language so writing this stuff up isn't terribly easy

[Bakemono]

When MK II launched a lot of players dropped their Infantrymachine playstyle and went back to a more Warjack/beast heavy playstyle, for a number of reasons. A lot of people were just excited that Warjacks were supposedly good "again". This lead to the current meta that a lot of regions more or less have, namely High Armor Heavy Targets and High Def Infantry. Meta being meta it also means that if you make a list you want heavy hitters and high def infantry of your own. So I started making lists that looked a lot like this:

<enter whatever caster here>
Feral
Stalker
Gorax
Argus
(maybe a Goat or Stoneman depending on caster)
Shifting Stones
LotF
Druids

I would like to comment that building a list should never be a <insert whatever Warlock here> affair. You don't need the Argus, period. You don't need a Goat. You need a Feral and/or a Pureblood. The Lord of the Feast is a nice model but he should not be in every generic list. He is a highly specialized anti-infantry killer, and an expensive Solo at that. The Pureblood provides Warpwolves with options to ignore terrain (and free strikes) as well as providing additional anti-infantry via a spray. Sprays also ignore problematic Stealth. A 10" POW-14 is always worth having. The Feral (or Ghetorix) provides you with a high MAT against hard to hit targets. In short, the Warpwolves you like to malign provide an answer to nearly every problem you complain about. It isn't that Warpwolves are lacking, it is more that your list didn't have enough Warpwolve.

Recap: Meta shift towards High Armor and High Def Weapon Master infantry and it's denial.

The META never shifted toward high ARM or high DEF Weapon Master infantry. Those things have always been around and in solid numbers. In MK-I I regularly battled armies that were made up entirely of Weapon Master units and ridiculous high ARM Warjacks. I was able to handle the high ARM with Warpwolves then, and I continue to be able to handle it now. Dealing with the Weapon Masters then and now was likewise the same. You avoid them and kill them before they get to hit you.

Circle is just no good at that... our toughest armor is on the Wolds (and even that is sad compared to all the ARM 20+ crap) and we are not exactly blessed with a lot of high def weapon masters... What Circle has is speed, teleportation, denial of many a thing, lots of pathfinder and lots of forests.

You cannot count on forests on the board and attempting to bring enough of your own is a dangerous fantasy. For the record, nobody can tank up ENOUGH to take a concentrated hit in this game (except perhaps the new BIG toys and that remains to be seen).

Here is where I start seeing the problem with Warpwolves... they don't have Pathfinder and the only real way for them to get it is by Animus which per the rules blocks their nice animi. They also really don't hit that hard unless you buff them up a bit.

Warpwolves have ways to get around terrain via Warps which do not block their Animi. You can't have it all, however, but that is kind of the point. The problem with your argument is that NONE of our Warbeasts hit any harder than our Warpwolves. You would have to use the same buffs on the other types of Warbeasts (or the ones legal for constructs) to get the same hitting power. The Warpwolves, however, would STILL hit more accurately, usually more often, and generally slightly harder. You have to make the case and show us with NUMBERS that you can overcome the things you are complaining about with the other Warbeasts and you haven't done so.

Goat comes at 1 point cheaper than the Feral.

That is because the Feral is better. Let me rephrase that, the Feral is a lot better. The increase in MAT is huge in this game. Aside from the Ghetorix, the Feral is our main MAT-7. This means it can hit a lot of targets without boosting and thereby get even MORE attacks.

(I will be attending a SR in 2 weeks and would like the element of surprise so I'm not going to disclose my lists until after... I know it's "just" a silly SR but I like winning... Tiger Blood and such Thread will be updated then)

So you are going to make us wait two weeks for the lists to look at... ok.

[ChaosE]

Now this is the right approach! Sweet. I'm looking forward to seeing your conclusions.

[Mattho2k3]

Before this thread gets nasty, and I hope it doesn't, I would like to thank you for your opinions and am intrigued by them. I will say that I have gotten great use out of all my warpwolves. I love the high threat range they give me. my personal playstyle benefits from this. Other factions have more issues dealing with rough terrain than Circle and Shifting Stones helps us a little.

Btw I am looking forward to the rest. Anything to open up new avenues for Circle to be played is a good thing IMO.

[MarioLopez]

I drew a picture of a Feral on my son's lunch bag yesterday. He was pumped.

[PG_prkl]

I'm glad to welcome different views and have started reflecting this on my own lists and playing. Warpwolves do get killed easily if contacted. That's why I usually play lists that deny your opponent contacting them, like eKrueger.

Just a thought, have you tried eKruegers new tier list? Cause I have a feeling you will love it..

[Blaque]

I feel also that discounting the fact tha when Warping Armor Plates, the Feral also still has +2 DEF over the Gnarlhorn, something not mentioned at all. This gives the Feral a lot of attrition potential, as a lot of other warnouns have to boost ot reliably hit (average of 8) and a lot of Weaponmaster infantry is on 50/50 chances to hit with MAT 7. This also protects it a lot from shooting, and makes it extra-durable if you give it ARM buffs since now what gets through hurts less.

The thing on hitting power is the spike potential also. The Feral might not survive, but if it can spike and smash an Avatar, then that's okay. The Feral and Gnarlhorn can get the same damage buffs, but the Feral always has an extra +2 STR it always can get above and beyond that. No warbeast has the ability to get a +6 swing on damage like the Warpwolves can.

I will note that, as noted, the "standard army list" is somewhat strawmanish. Few people took Argi, and in the FT, it was because they had an animus worth taking (Hunter > Circular Vision). Going over old lists I had, seems that for me it was:
- Baldur1 - Woldwarden x2, Megalith (now Woldwarden, Megalith, Warpwolf Stalker)
- Kaya1 - Feral Warpwolf, Gorax, Pureblood Warpwolf (Now Feral, Staler, Gorax)
- Kaya2 - Feral Warpwolf, Pureblood Warpwolf, Argus x2, Gorax (Now STalker, Pureblood, Shadowhorn, Gnarlhorn, Gorax)
- Krueger1 - Gorax, Pureblood Warpwolf, Feral Warpwolf, Megalith (Woldwardne instead of Megalith for restrictions)
Krueger2 - Megaltih, Woldwarden, Pureblood Warpwolf, Gorax (Now Warpwolf Stalker instead of Pureblood)
Morvahna - Gorax, Feral Warpwolf, Megalith (now Gorax, Warpwolf Stalker, Wold Guardian)
Kromac - Feral Warpwolf, Pureblood Warpwolf, Gorax, Gnarlhorn Satyr (now Warpwolf Stalker, Pureblood Warpwolf, Wold Guardian, Gorax)
Mohsar - Megalith, WOldwarden, Gorax, Gnarlhorn (Now Megalith, Feral Warpwolf, Gorax)

Early on there was some overlap, but mostly for the fact of similar tools, like Geomancers, or Gorax + Heavy. Folks want to maximize parts. For Circle, we don't need our beasts to take care of infantry hordes. None of our beasts, not even Ghetorix, can survive enough onslaught. Warbeasts for Circle are primarily for smashing armor, which Warpwolves will do best at. You might not like the asymetry in stats that Warping does, but Warping does give Warpwolves the damage output that most warbeasts need Primal to get, and can go beyond that.

To clear infantry, we depend on spells (helped by Woldwardens and Gallows Groves), templates (Blackclads, Stone Keepers, Purebloods, Celestial Fulcrums, Kruegers), solos (Morraig, Reeve Hunter, Lord of the Feast, White Mane) and troops (Bloodtrackers, Woldshrimp, Bloodweavers, Wolfriders). We just don't need the warbeasts to pull that load, and really save for Purebloods, Stalkers, and Geomancers (which are actually very good in comparison to beasts of other factions in that department), aren't especially great at it unless you are doing a lot of throwing or slamming.

It's an interesting argument, but I do wonder if it is built out of a need to be contrarian and such then to actually look at some of the mathmatics involved. You note not liking the Warpwolf being soft suddenly, for instnace. Against enough firepower, even with an RM buff it will die. The issue is that whether you take down something worth killing with it, like an Avatar, Tiberion, or Mulg. And the Warpwolf with enough buffs can in ways and more reliably than a goat ever will.

And stuff.

[AmonadRodrigues]

I'm sorry, but i don't get your point. You compare the Feral to the Gnarlhorn, which is fair enough. But the fact, that you prefer a Gnarlhorn over a Feral doesn't help that much by backing up your thesis: WARPWOLVES are bad for circle.

The times, when the Feral were our go-to warbeast are long over. The very most players take a Stalker first nowadays. So if you want to make your point, you would have to compare the Gnarlhorn to the Stalker. But the stalker has none of the drawbacks you listet (useless Animus, decision between threadrange and hitting power, lack of utility - the stalker is the opposit of all of this). AFTER i took a stalker and a Gorax I may discuss, wether or not my next Heavy might be a Goat. I'd usually take a Pureblood as my second, but that of course depends on the whole composition of the list. To take a Gnarlhorn over a Feral as your 3rd or maybe even 2nd Heavy is something i can imagine to do myself. But that doesn't mean i would leave the house without ANY Warpwolf.
At the end of your post you also list the Pureblood as a Utility Beast you take with you (and on one list a Stalker - one of 2 lists?). So you meant with your post: Ferals (not warpwolves general) are bad for circle?
Or you meant: We don't need no heavy-hitters? (so if i take a warpwolf i dont use him as heavy hitter and just for animus like you like to do with the Stalker?)

[santospr]

Or you buff their armor. This game is never about looking at models in a vacuum and comparing them. That is the wrong way to go. Each has their merits and can bring you different outcomes depending your warlock. Inserting warlock into said list seems like a bad idea. We are not that type of faction. Each of my lists for each warlock is very different and has a different mix of models. Sometimes I have many different lists for a caster depending on what I want to play (looking at you eKrueger) and we can do that.

Furries and constructs have their own strengths and weakness. You really underestimate the SPD and DEF stats of wolves while focus more on the armor of the other beasts which really isn't that big. Taking 2 lets dmg per attack is not as big as never getting hit (due to huge difference between base 12 and 14 DEF) or forcing the enemy to boost so overall less attacks are also sustained.

Counter slam is very situational and rarely does it come into play against a canny opponent. Fact.

I believe that being from gators and only having selection of easy to hit slightly above average armor and low P+S warbeasts with no faction buffs to dmg has colored your view. Circle is NOT Gatormen. Warpwolves are not meant to tank. There is a reason we have Sprint. It like a pseudo teleport and very powerful on SPD 6 warbeasts.

This thread should be renamed Relying on Warpwolves to tank is bad for druidic business (unless your eBaldur, DEF14 ARM 20+ immune to knockdown warpwolves is crazy!)

[Razious]

I solidly disagree with alot of the ops statements but im at work...ill expand later

[SillySod]

I.... most of this isnt quantified... and if quantified it would be demonstrated as false

It seems worth pointing out that a feral is a 14/18 heavy with a special rule that drops it to 14/16 if it kills something big. Also, warp speed is like a free random bonus option rule. You should rarely factor in warp speed when you evaluate the beast but its handy because sometimes people will walk a caster into your bigger-but-weaker secondary threat range.

[rpavers]

Interesting view points. I love me some wolds and hate me some warpwolves.

[Asdrubael]

There are a number of times where I read something on a forum that makes me legitimately shake my head and ask if that person is completely sane. This is an example of one such time.

Literally every knock you have on warpwolves is largely false/foolish and a byproduct of creating some monomyth style generic list template that is, at its core, horrendously faulty (see Blaque's breakdown). The warpwolf is relied on because it is, plain and simple, better than everything else we have. Hell, it's better than everything most everyone else has also. The issue is not with the warpwolf, it's with two things: the player (sorry, that means you) and our other warbeasts. Out other warbeasts have times when they should see the field. They have a role, typically with a specific warlock, that they can fill reliably. This role, however, tends to be one dimensional regardless how good they are at it. For my money, I can't think of something I would rather have dropping a slam on someone than a Gnarlhorn. Fact of the matter is, though, typically I'd rather just vaporize the model I would've planned on slamming. Gnarlhorn's, alas, are not so good at the whole vaporization thing. Warpwolves are. As for the player... have you considered that you're just not doing it right? I hate to sound like a total *****, but a poor carpenter blames his tools. Rather than going on some sort of crusade to prove your point, why don't you put more effort into perfecting your use of what everyone, minus you, recognizes as our most effective and efficient warbeasts? Also, get away from fielding a super beast heavy (fury management issues, much?) template and try out some of our other infantry. Know what is surprisingly solid against the much-vaunted high-def weapon master infantry you tout? Our dirt cheap wolves of orboros. Give them a shot alongside Morraig and you'll find that you have a unit that can basically do a bit of everything for a surprisingly affordable cost along with a dragoon that is a real pain in the neck to deal with (add lightning strike to his light cavalry move, smoke a solo or finish off a warbeast/jack, and watch your opponent's face wrinkle into a grimace).

Fact of the matter is, you can find elsewhere on the forums where people have run the numbers on comparing damage output, defensive qualities, etc. between our warpwolves and our other warbeasts. Warpwolves win... EVERY TIME. You are incorrect in your assertions, and you're wasting your time. You can, and possibly will, win some games throughout your test, and this may, though it shouldn't, be enough to "legitimize" your theory and allow you to continue to play at self-deception. Hopefully, and this will sound awful, you get absolutely trounced enough times that logic breaks through. Until then, best of luck.

[PG_cheddercaveman]

Yea, I don't know that I can get behind this logic. I applaud thinking outside the box, but you have to think completely through it. The Gnarlhorn IS in fact a 12/18, but even 14/16 is likely better most of the time, plus you have the ability to warp for armor, and we can all agree that 14/18 is definitely better. Also, I seem to see that the Gnarlhorn is being compared in the offensive category to the Feral? The Feral again, can Warp Strength, meaning that its POW 17, 17 and 16 on its initials at MAT 7. The Gnarlhorn is POW 15, 14, 14 at MAT 6 all the time.

I'm not saying the Gnarlhorn is a bad beast, because it isn't at all. It does have a different niche though, but I definitely suggest playing and seeing how it works. The only 'beasts we have that I've had any success with doing any tanking are the Wold Guardian and Ghetorix, maybe to a minor extent Megalith. Feral's can hold their own a little if they warp armor.

Also, unfortunately I'm seeing that the shift in the meta is going to have to happen in order to be able to have a shot at taking out some colossals, the Feral / Stalker / Ghetorix are going to become even MORE important, at least until we see what our other releases look like.

[mattieK]

@OP I appreciate your divergent ideas and look forward to seeing your list construction. I personally think the warlock and the player's playstyle dictate list composition more than you think. Circle is a unit faction. Played correctly, you will devastate your opponent and take minimal losses. But played incorrectly, you will be decimated.

[Beckman]

@OP, I'm kindof scratching my head here. Wouldn't the trend TOWARDS Colossals make the Feral, and other beasts that can benefit from Primal a better choice?

The whole criticism of wold-type beasts and non-warpwolves is that they're pillow fisted.

The Stalker, Feral, and Ghetorix generally out-damage other options... Unless you're talking about a specific list, it's kind of hard to get behind ditching the wolves. The Heavy Wolds aren't great at anti-infantry, unless you're spamming an effective anti-infantry spell with a Wold Warden... But the Stalker can be. And with Lightning Reflexes, the Feral/Ghetorix can be as well. If your meta is "shifted towards high def weaponmasters", wouldn't the Stalker be a good bet? Especially with someone like Kromac, who can add additional distance to the move? (warpath)

I also want you to explain how you plan to hack through either Tiberion or the Avatar of Menoth with defender's ward on it. Without Primal.

[Hug a Gorax]

To be fair to eLdritch, he wasn't claiming that warpwolves weren't the best at smashing things, as some replies have suggested. He seems to be arguing rather (whether you agree with the thesis or not) that Circle as a faction is not best served by forming its battleplan around trying to smash things.

[eLdritch]

Ok firstly I want to say that I won't be able to answer all of this... it'd take all night and probably drive me insane... I'm gonna pick a few things out.

secondly because it's come up like 3 or 4 times that list I posted was AN EXAMPLE... I thought the fact it didn't even include a bloody Caster was a solid pointer to that fact... I should just not have posted a list and said "Feral, Stalker, Gorax" instead... sheesh... although Argi were quite popular among Circle players around here in combo with forrest shenanigans.

thirdly, I did write in that reserved post that more was to follow... So to everyone asking for numbers or specifics, sit down and be patient!

right.

That is because the Feral is better. Let me rephrase that, the Feral is a lot better. The increase in MAT is huge in this game. Aside from the Ghetorix, the Feral is our main MAT-7. This means it can hit a lot of targets without boosting and thereby get even MORE attacks.

fair point. it does have MAT 7... The main point i keep hearing though is that Ferals can attack with P+S a gazillion which normally includes Primal. That means another +2 MAT as well... MAT 6 and 7 BIG DIFFERENCE. MAT 8 and 9 not so much. That kind of DEF is usually on Warcasters and Solos and to that I say - what's knocked down doesn't have DEF

he problem with your argument is that NONE of our Warbeasts hit any harder than our Warpwolves.

It's called the Wold Guardian.
Apart from that, that was rather my point as well... The Feral doesn't hit harder than anything else we have either unless you add Warp Strength in which case it has less armour and the same SPD as the other Beasts... Is it so hard to understand that Controlled Warping is mutually exclusive? You can't argue that the Feral is our best Warbeast because it's 14/18 with 13 STR and SPD 8 because it doesn't work like that. Whatever you chose you lose out on the other 2 which in those areas makes the Feral's a mediocre statline at best.

It's an interesting argument, but I do wonder if it is built out of a need to be contrarian and such then to actually look at some of the mathmatics involved. You note not liking the Warpwolf being soft suddenly, for instnace. Against enough firepower, even with an RM buff it will die. The issue is that whether you take down something worth killing with it, like an Avatar, Tiberion, or Mulg. And the Warpwolf with enough buffs can in ways and more reliably than a goat ever will.

That's not where the argument is coming from. I just played a few other factions in my time and well... one ends up comparing similarly priced models... that's one thing i preferred about MKI point costs... it was easier to make 2 models cost similiar points while keeping one of them a bit cheaper. I just think that the Feral, for the hitting power and utility it brings, is too expensive. It's a very expensive 1 trick pony... You are correct though, the big goat will never reach the hitting power the Feral provides my point and approach to Circle is based on the thesis that we actually don't need the hitting power in the first place. Which I'm outlining in my second post atm... Also I probably shouldn't have said that the Stalker is garbage... I do have it in one of my lists because it hits nice and hard has much better Warping effects and has a brilliant non living animus.... My only real problem with it is the price... I think if both the Feral and the Stalker were 1 point less each I wouldn't be so cranky about it.

But that doesn't mean i would leave the house without ANY Warpwolf.

And I'm not saying you should. What I'm trying to say is that the RELIANCE (i.e. the crutch) on Warpwolves is something that is holding Circle back. It's something that goes for a bunch of other factions as well, which is that focusing on those heavy hitters because you NEED them is ruling out many a thing that will in the end make you realize that heavy hitters aren't necessary because there are ways around !most! heavy targets that don't involve Axe to Mouth. I'm saying that it is a similar situation to Cygnar's apparent need (if you believe their subforum) for Stormclads and Weapon Master Mercs. I'm not trying to get every existing Warpwolf Model burned in a big bonfire I'm just trying to spark some new thinking in this rut of a meta that everyone got themselves stuck in. Btw I love the PB... Stalker can have it's uses I just don't see the intrinsic need for them... I'm trying to get that point across but I feel the language barrier keeps me from expressing this point right... =/

Counter slam is very situational and rarely does it come into play against a canny opponent. Fact.

True facts. Until you hit an opponent whose last 20 games against Circle didn't have one and he forgets about it Strawman argument, i know but i do still like to have the ability around.

[eLdritch]

I believe that being from gators and only having selection of easy to hit slightly above average armor and low P+S warbeasts with no faction buffs to dmg has colored your view. Circle is NOT Gatormen. Warpwolves are not meant to tank. There is a reason we have Sprint. It like a pseudo teleport and very powerful on SPD 6 warbeasts.

I'm not "from" Gators, mate. I know the sig is deceiving. I've played many a Circle game... I remember when the Feral Warpwolf was just "Warpwolf", didn't have a Bite Attack and had Chain Attack: Throat Ripper Thanks for the tips all the same.

have you considered that you're just not doing it right? I hate to sound like a total *****, but a poor carpenter blames his tools. Rather than going on some sort of crusade to prove your point, why don't you put more effort into perfecting your use of what everyone, minus you, recognizes as our most effective and efficient warbeasts? Also, get away from fielding a super beast heavy (fury management issues, much?) template and try out some of our other infantry.

Or I could keep trying to think for myself to maybe come up with something that is just as effective or better and a hell of a lot more fun? I don't know if it reads like it for other people but this right here is not a whiny complainy thread... after all I'm not posting in the Cygnar Forum am I (bazinga! ) I'm really just trying to poke people into thinking. Everyone is of course free to not listen...

Know what is surprisingly solid against the much-vaunted high-def weapon master infantry you tout? Our dirt cheap wolves of orboros. Give them a shot alongside Morraig and you'll find that you have a unit that can basically do a bit of everything for a surprisingly affordable cost along with a dragoon that is a real pain in the neck to deal with (add lightning strike to his light cavalry move, smoke a solo or finish off a warbeast/jack, and watch your opponent's face wrinkle into a grimace).

Yes I use them practically in every list and I'm contemplating buying a third set for my Grayle Tier list. I was gonna say a bunch about them in post nr. 2 =)

now I'm going to bed... I'll post the rest tomorrow...

[eLdritch]

To be fair to eLdritch, he wasn't claiming that warpwolves weren't the best at smashing things, as some replies have suggested. He seems to be arguing rather (whether you agree with the thesis or not) that Circle as a faction is not best served by forming its battleplan around trying to smash things.

Mind if I hug you while you're hugging a Gorax? Thanks for that mate!

[Lighten]

We're missing the playstyle from eLdritch, and some discussion of how he goes over/around/through the high arm/def stuff. Assassination, scenario, tying up heavies while killing everything else... ?

Though I have to admit that this seems oddly timed, given the increase lately in immovable models that mess with our normal push/pull/place tricks and block a good bit of the board to prevent assassination runs. I'd be happy with a viable alternative to all vs. Colossal games being attrition matches.

[AmonadRodrigues]

We're missing the playstyle from eLdritch, and some discussion of how he goes over/around/through the high arm/def stuff. Assassination, scenario, tying up heavies while killing everything else... ?

Though I have to admit that this seems oddly timed, given the increase lately in immovable models that mess with our normal push/pull/place tricks and block a good bit of the board to prevent assassination runs. I'd be happy with a viable alternative to all vs. Colossal games being attrition matches.

Thats what i thought too. Anyways i'm looking forward to farther explanations.

[Ghost Rider]

Though I admit that Circle is not the most smashy faction and our plan to win should be more than just taking out all the opponents models, I still love my warpwolves. At a tournament this weekend, I teleported my Feral with Primal on it and with warpath upkept he killed not 1 but 2 Warhogs in a single turn. Used with a good plan, there is a place for nearly everything Circle has. Remember the Feral has 3 initial attacks, all of which can be affected by both warping for STR and Primal. Also the warps provide flexiblity depending upon the situation your facing, not just a static benefit. I have several opponents that feel warps should require forcing since they are so good.

[Stallandor]

Collosals are indeed probably likely to break what might be some good ideas here.
No slamming, pushing or knocking down does drop away the effectiveness of our Goats (who I do love taking) and make the Warpwolves more of a must have in at least one "Anti Collosal" list, due to thier requirement of kill them or suffer.
More and more, I'm finding the Stalker in every list. The Gorax I really dislike, but he keeps tapping me on the shoulder now (which is highly disconcerting). Ghetto will be in one of every 2 lists by November I don't doubt.
But it does limit some of our playstyle, I will conceed. However, this may be a necessary limitation.

[rpavers]

I feel like the title of this thread is misleading. Should be 'warpwolves are a crutch'. And I would agree with that.

[Bakemono]

It's called the Wold Guardian.
Apart from that, that was rather my point as well... The Feral doesn't hit harder than anything else we have either unless you add Warp Strength in which case it has less armour and the same SPD as the other Beasts... Is it so hard to understand that Controlled Warping is mutually exclusive? You can't argue that the Feral is our best Warbeast because it's 14/18 with 13 STR and SPD 8 because it doesn't work like that. Whatever you chose you lose out on the other 2 which in those areas makes the Feral's a mediocre statline at best.

I'm afraid your math doesn't add up. I will demonstrate with just raw damage (not yet taking any of the opponent's ARM into account or our own buffs or warps):

FERAL WARPWOLF
Basic Attacks: Bite-14 + Claw-15 + Claw-15 = 44
Fury Attacks: Claw-15 + Claw-15 + Claw-15 + Claw-15 = 60
Grand Total Damage Output: (104)

WOLDGUARDIAN
Basic Attacks: Fist-17 + Fist-17 = 34
Fury Attacks: Fist-17 + Fist-17 + Fist-17 = 51
Grand Total Damage Output: (85)

The Feral Warpwolf is not only MORE likely to hit than the Woldguardian, his damage output is 19pts higher BEFORE consideration of the natural ability to warp for STR. If we take that into account we must add another +14pts. Both the Woldguardian and the Feral can get another buff, albeit from different sources. The net gain equals out in damage bonus but the MAT of the Feral continues to climb. A MAT-9 Feral can hit a DEF-16 Warlock/Warcaster on a roll of seven (the statistical average on 2D6). The Feral, without warping for speed, is 2" faster than than the Woldguardian and is thus far more likely to reach the target. The sad thing is even if we assume the Woldguardian knocks its target down, it will STILL do less damage than the Feral. How do you reconcile these numbers with your notion that the Woldguardian is our hardest hitting Warbeast?

[Hug a Gorax]

FERAL WARPWOLF
Basic Attacks: Bite-14 + Claw-15 + Claw-15 = 44
Fury Attacks: Claw-15 + Claw-15 + Claw-15 + Claw-15 = 60
Grand Total Damage Output: (104)

WOLDGUARDIAN
Basic Attacks: Fist-17 + Fist-17 = 34
Fury Attacks: Fist-17 + Fist-17 + Fist-17 = 51
Grand Total Damage Output: (85)

The Feral Warpwolf is not only MORE likely to hit than the Woldguardian, his damage output is 19pts higher BEFORE consideration of the natural ability to warp for STR. If we take that into account we must add another +14pts.

Your maths is off there matey. You don't have nineteen points more damage because you have a different number of attacks. You must minus seven times the defenders ARM from your wolf calculation, and five times the defenders ARM from the woldguardian one. Obviously you get an extra four dice at it overall too with the wolf, which will average out at fourteen. So, if the defender has an ARM of seventeen or greater, the woldguardian scores more damage; sixteen or less and the warpwolf does. With strength warping obviously it becomes moot, as you simply have more attacks at the same strength which is always better!

[Bakemono]

On an entirely different note, please do not make me go cut and paste from your ample, contradictory posts in this thread and the others to add further, painful emphasis to the mixed message you are sending. You have indicated:

1. Warpwolves are bad models and went into a rant about it.
2. Warpwolves are a crutch and hence great models which somehow dumb the rest of us down for using them.
3. Warpwolves are inferior to other Circle and Minion models.
4. Warpwolves are not inferior but that is beside the point.
5. You don't use Warpwolves.
6. You do use some Warpwolves.

I could keep going to 10-12 probably in just a brief glance back through your posts. I want to point out (and I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on language barrier) that you are contradicting yourself constantly. Several of these statements are "mutually exclusive" ideas. This means they can't all be true. There is a rhetorical trick some people (and I'm not saying you are doing it) employ by throwing out a wide variety of contradictory opinions and hoping one sticks. The upside of this tactic is that it makes it hard for people to figure out what you are actually saying and thus harder to debate. Clearly it is the language barrier and not such a base device that is at work here. I would, therefore, suggest you take the time to CLARIFY your exact position.

Clearly you can't be indicating you think the whole lot of us (most of us playing since the game began) are nothing but Meta-Sheep and must never have tried any of the other models. Clearly you can't be saying that you think we are all a bunch of lazy, ignorant types who are incapable of thinking for ourselves. That would be rather arrogant and rude don't you think? Isn't it far more likely that most of us have tried and applied nearly every Circle Model we can get our competitive little hands on? Isn't it more likely that most of us use the Warpwolves because after many years of play we have found what works best for us personally? Wouldn't the fact that so many competitive types end up using Warpwolves tend to indicate a certain strength of the models? I'm not a nice guy. I don't like playing ring around the rosy with topics. I don't use foul language. I avoid personal attacks. I like to keep to the hard numbers, tactics, strategy, and the rules of rhetoric and debate. I'm willing to wait the two weeks for your lists. That gives you ample time to consider all your words, arguments, and gather your evidence. I will expect there to be some mighty impressive stuff in two week though. Tick Tock.

[Bakemono]

Your maths is off there matey. You don't have nineteen points more damage because you have a different number of attacks. You must minus seven times the defenders ARM from your wolf calculation, and five times the defenders ARM from the woldguardian one. Obviously you get an extra four dice at it overall too with the wolf, which will average out at fourteen. So, if the defender has an ARM of seventeen or greater, the woldguardian scores more damage; sixteen or less and the warpwolf does. With strength warping obviously it becomes moot, as you simply have more attacks at the same strength which is always better!

The math is fine. We are dealing with RAW output since we don't know the ARM of the target. I am well aware that the Warpwolf has MORE attacks. That is kind of the point being made. Let me repeat your last line: MORE ATTACKS AT THE SAME STRENGTH WHICH IS ALWAYS BETTER! That is the point.

[Ruan]

The Woldguardian might - and I do mean might - survive a full round of combat being attacked by an enemy heavy, and more often than not a Feral doesn't. That's pretty much the only place I've always felt it comes ahead. You can't do damage if you are dead. And that, more than anything, is the problem I most run into with our Warpwolves, as much as I like them - they're squishy. To not be squishy, you generally need to be using an inherent ARM buffs - warp ARM on a Feral, Unyielding on Ghetorix, plus an ARM buff on a warlock. A Woldguardian's ARM is high enough by itself that it only needs a single buff to put it at pretty respectable levels. A Woldguardian is pretty solid against ranged if it has its animus up, whereas a Warpwolf (barring a Stalker warping Prowl and avoiding range that way) tends to get hit pretty hard by anything chucked at it by a decent POW enemy ranged attack.

That said, I've had a Warpwolf survive over a Woldguardian due to high DEF, whereas the Woldguardian is always going to get hit. Soo.... *waves hands in air*

You know, if we had access to an animus that either gave +DEF or +ARM that was NOT self *eyes Winter Argus* we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion...

Anyways. The nature of the Circle faction is a lot less 'try and survive the upcoming turn' and more 'force your opponent to survive the upcoming turn'. Circle (with some possible exceptions) tends to do better on the offensive than we do on the defensive, and generally I've always felt our reliance on Warpwolves for putting out a lot of damage embodies that.

I know I have started trying to find ways to wean myself off of utilizing more than one Warpwolf in a given list, and instead putting those points to other uses. I'm not sure if I can call Warpwolves a 'crutch' - that's the only problem I have with them, actually. 'Crutch' says to me 'taking this in your game is not necessary, but will make your life easier'. Warpwolves instead say right now 'take me with you, or you will fail'. Yes, this is not completely true - there are a few Circle lists that can potentially function without a single Warpwolf. But for the most part, with most lists... you take a Warpwolf. Even if it is just one. If you want versatility, you take a Feral. Hard hit and potentially high ARM, take Ghetorix. Added maneuverability, Stalker. Decent animus and decent spray, Pureblood. But generally, it feels like you're stuck taking one.

Right now, I'd settle for a beast that is not a Warpwolf that can do decent damage against ARM 20+, unbuffed - an uber-Satyr with Grab and Smash could be fun. The Woldwrath might deliver, but odds are it's going to be in the mid/backfield lightning spamming instead and only using its melee for pounding things that can come into range.

Even having a solid ranged beast option other than the Pureblood will help, especially if said ranged option has more than one attack with a decent POW - then we can soften up a heavy enough that we won't have to rely on a Warpwolf to kill a high ARM target in one fell swoop.

[Finnigan2004]

I'm sort of having trouble seeing that our warpwolves are anything but awesome. I'm a big proponent of warpwolves and beast heavy armies. I'd encourage our players to try the following list (which I've used sometimes), and tell me that they have had anything but a massively fun time.

Kromac the Ravenous -4
Gorax 4
Ghetorix 11
Pureblood Warpwolf 9
Warpwolf Stalker 10
Warpwolf Stalker 10
Shifting Stones 2
Stone keeper 1
Shifting Stones 2
Blackclad Wayfarer 2
Druid Wilder 2
Gallows Grove 1

This list has quite a few solutions to the problems that the OP listed. The pureblood gives solutions to terrain problems, defensive animi, helps with infantry removal, and can serve as a back up heavy. Warpathed Stalkers with wild aggression wreck infantry. My primaled warpwolves wreck heavies, lights, casters, and anything in between. Kromac denies spells, can buff armour, throws around some rifts, and can act as a back up assassin in a pinch. It plays hit and run, and does it very well. It's been lots of fun so far, but if you're a warpwolf hater, give it a try. I've also found warpwolf heavy with ekaya to be super fun. You'd be surprised how survivable warpwolves with a 16 Defense can be.

[Hug a Gorax]

The math is fine. We are dealing with RAW output since we don't know the ARM of the target. I am well aware that the Warpwolf has MORE attacks. That is kind of the point being made. Let me repeat your last line: MORE ATTACKS AT THE SAME STRENGTH WHICH IS ALWAYS BETTER! That is the point.

Oh yes, with warped strength, but without warped strength your maths wasn't fine (or rather, the numbers were fine, but meaningless!). If you want to quote "raw output," then you're comparing apples with oranges because you have a couple of situations where you're going up against two different "raw armours." That is to say for the wolf, you are attacking a "raw armour" of seven times ARM, with the woldguardian, a "raw armour" of only five times ARM.

A more intuitive way of thinking about it might be this: you have seven attacks with the wolf and five with guardian. In the first five attacks of both beasts the guardian scores 11 extra damage from his higher strength attacks. How much ARM will the defender need to have for the wolf to score that extra eleven damage in his two "bonus" attacks after the guardian has stopped swinging? Well, he'll need to get 5.5 per attack and he'll be rolling seven on average dice plus his fifteen from his claws. So, twenty-two. That will give an ARM value of 16.5 to get his eleven damage in to catch up with the guardian. So, if the defender's ARM is less that 16.5, he will do more damage than the eleven and outscore the guardian overall. Greater ARM than 16.5 and the wolf does less than eleven damage in his last two attacks: the guardian scores more damage overall.

Does that make sense?

[Bakemono]

Oh yes, with warped strength, but without warped strength your maths wasn't fine (or rather, the numbers were fine, but meaningless!). If you want to quote "raw output," then you're comparing apples with oranges because you have a couple of situations where you're going up against two different "raw armours." That is to say for the wolf, you are attacking a "raw armour" of seven times ARM, with the woldguardian, a "raw armour" of only five times ARM.

A more intuitive way of thinking about it might be this: you have seven attacks with the wolf and five with guardian. In the first five attacks of both beasts the guardian scores 11 extra damage from his higher strength attacks. How much ARM will the defender need to have for the wolf to score that extra eleven damage in his two "bonus" attacks after the guardian has stopped swinging? Well, he'll need to get 5.5 per attack and he'll be rolling seven on average dice plus his fifteen from his claws. So, twenty-two. That will give an ARM value of 16.5 to get his eleven damage in to catch up with the guardian. So, if the defender's ARM is less that 16.5, he will do more damage than the eleven and outscore the guardian overall. Greater ARM than 16.5 and the wolf does less than eleven damage in his last two attacks: the guardian scores more damage overall.

Does that make sense?

No, not really. The Feral (and any Warpwolf) is going to warp STR when it attacks nine times out of ten so all of that is moot. All that matters is the Feral does more damage than the Woldguardian.

[Protest the Shredder]

Wolds are cool, Warpwolfs win.

[Lanz]

While I can't say that I read every single post in this thread, the opening notion of 'relying' on the warpwolf caught my attention, and I just want to point out that Circle can almost never 'rely' on brute force alone. The faction isn't built for it, most lists can't do it as well as other factions can, and trying to play it that way is just going to leave many assets and strengths unused.

Maybe a brute-force list could be run with eBaldur now, or something, but that's a list, not the faction. As a convention, Circle relies on its mobility and positioning tricks to give it an edge and most of the models have some element of this. So does the warpwolf beat face as good as the rest of the faction bruisers with the same overall point investment? No. Does it have to? No. Does that mean it sucks? Not unless you're going to say that the entire faction sucks, because the Warpwolves are hardly unique in this regard.

[mercury]

Here is where I start seeing the problem with Warpwolves... they don't have Pathfinder and the only real way for them to get it is by Animus which per the rules blocks their nice animi. They also really don't hit that hard unless you buff them up a bit.

Except that the Stalker DOES have Pathfinder, and the Pureblood can warp to become Ghostly.

You say that you have plenty of experience in playing Circle, yet your points of view seem to be rather naive. Your comparison seems to assume that the Feral Warpwolf is the crutch that everyone is relying on. Put simply: it isn't. In fact, if you look around you will find that the Feral doesn't see play that often.

You ask us to re-evaluate our non-Warpwolf options, yet you disregard the Stalker because it is costed at 10 points. I suggest you re-evaluate the Stalker. It has Pathfinder, it can clear infantry, it has 2 attacks at STR 16 & 18 when attacking a high-ARM target, 14/17 defensive stats, and possibly the best animus in all of Circle. the Stalker plays such a good hit-and-run game with the likes of Mohsar, Kromac, Grayle and eKaya that it should pretty much be considered part of their playstyle. Yes, it's 2 points more than a Gnarlhorn, but those 2 points are generally very well spent in my opinion.

If any Warbeast should be considered a crutch (and I don't believe that any of them are - the Stalker is the only one that I would consider in >50% of my lists), then it is the Stalker. And as far as I am concerned a Stalker is miles better than a Gnarlhorn and 2 saved points.

[Snowmelter]

eLdritch, you are from Germany. I found on T3 only one eLdritch in Hamburg. Is that you?

Hamburg is only a 2 hours drive from Braunschweig. This weekend our club hosts a tournament. Care to join and show us how your theory works?

[Scottl1]

lol All the knocks on the warpwolfs for ONLY being spd 6 etc must be from coo players not running them with Kromac and as far as needing to cast that sweet animus lightning strike I have the caster and the wilder do that yeesh. lol Then that pillow fisted pow 20(with warp for strength and gorax) reaches out and touches someone. I'd say being able to kill between 2-3 heavies in a turn seems legit to me with range 14 inch threat on stalkers and ghetorix.

[Hug a Gorax]

No, not really.

Hmmm... how about putting some numbers in the limiting cases. We'll add seven for the average dice roll for 2D6.

ARM 16:
Wolf attack one (bite): 14 + 7 - 16 = 5 damage.
Wolf attacks two to seven (claws): 15 + 7 - 16 = 6 damage.
So a total of 5 + (6 x 6) = 41 for the wolf.

Guardian attacks one to five (fist): 17 + 7 - 16 = 8 damage.
So a total of 5 x 8 = 40 for the guardian.

ARM 17:
Wolf attack one (bite): 14 + 7 - 17 = 4 damage.
Wolf attacks two to seven (claws): 15 + 7 - 17 = 5 damage.
So a total of 4 + (6 x 5) = 34 for the wolf.

Guardian attacks one to five (fist): 17 + 7 - 17 = 7 damage.
So a total of 5 x 7 = 35 for the guardian.

You can trust me that as the ARM gets lower than 16, the wolf will outpunch the guardian by more and more, and that as the ARM raises above 17, the guardian will outscore the wolf by more and more.

That's not to say that the wolf won't score more damage if he warps strength (he will), or that the wolf will never outscore the guardian unwarped (he can). In the unwarped case it's marginal, depending on the defender's ARM as indicated above, with the wolf being best for cracking low ARM, the guardian for dealing with high ARM. There certainly isn't a 19 point automatic swing to the wolf in the unwarped case. For the wolf to outscore the guardian by 19 on average, the defender's ARM would need to be 7 or less. (At ARM 7 the wolf averages 104 damage, the guardian 85)

In practical terms, there's not much to chose between damage output of a non-strength-warped feral warpwolf and a woldguardian. What has ARM less than 16, but also more than forty boxes, where the wolf is ahead? Likewise as soon as you get to ARM 19 or so (25-20 in the guardian's favour), you want to think about boosting damage with the wolf rather than buying extra attacks. As you say, it's a situation where you'd probably have considered warping strength.

(This is just the damage-dealing part of course, which was what you were trying to calculate. The wolf does have an extra MAT, which will help landing blows in the first place. I have a feeling it's going to be horses for courses there too though, as if the wolf needs to boost attack, he'll have to keep doing it. The guardian will hopefully only have to boost once, to get his knock-down hit.)