So ruling on colossal weapon lock is in

[Crate123]

And its super!
Absylonia can now totally neuter any colossal.
If you get locked you are automatically forced into a melee action and thus can not shoot as well unless you have virtuoso.
So a locked stormwall cant do anything else other than trying to break free.
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...52#post1500652

[PG_Saturated Phat]

thats ae-mazing! I gotta get my abby and a few dragon hounds

[OminousAfro]

Ugh, but I hate Absylonia and don't want a reason to play her at all ever... QQ

[JosephKerr]

Never been so happy to be on the wrong end of a ruling

[katadder]

still doesnt stop the caster thats also hanging around killing the Raek 1st as thats what people are using for this purpose. or any secondary jack. its a nice tactic in theory but in practise you should only manage it once against the same opponent as next time he will just waste your raek.

[ikbuh]

Oh that is so deliciously sweet! I've never been happier that Abby is my first warlock!

[CaptBooyah]

Oh man, that is so awesome.. I have the vapours just thinking about permanently taking a colossal out of the game with just a 4pt model and 3 fury (Weapon Lock + Blight field).

[Neutralyze]

Dot hold your breath on this. I mentioned it in the colossals thread a few weeks back. Locks Will change in the next errata, trust me.

[Crate123]

Dot hold your breath on this. I mentioned it in the colossals thread a few weeks back. Locks Will change in the next errata, trust me.

Is this something you expect or something you know ?

At any rate this is a good counter for now.

[Neutralyze]

Something I know

[CaptBooyah]

The current rules are quite assuming that jacks can't fire while engaged and even as I read them I was confused with the whole ordeal in general so I'd expect it to change. Besides, who wants a new product to be 'easily' countered by something a fraction of its cost.

Oh wait... that's a Warpwolf Stalker jacked up to POW 22 attacks.

[Crate123]

The current rules are quite assuming that jacks can't fire while engaged and even as I read them I was confused with the whole ordeal in general so I'd expect it to change. Besides, who wants a new product to be 'easily' countered by something a fraction of its cost.

Oh wait... that's a Warpwolf Stalker jacked up to POW 22 attacks.

Easily countered by 1 warlock. Anyone else locking the jack will just end up dead because it can buy more melee attacks, the thing is we have a fast creature that can leap + open fist (with the spell) + blight field.
Cant say Im not a little puzzled why this is getting errataed.

[Belthazar1113]

its a trick. its not the best trick in the world, just A trick. something else walking up and killing off the raek frees up the locked guy, and killing a roak isn't exactly the hardest thing in the world, especially if you dont have forced evo on it, which you wont since you are putting playing god on it to lock up the big boy.

People really think this needs errata? seriously? one warlock, with a marginal trick, requires a major rules reworking. *shrug* i really dont think this is as big an issue as people are making it out to be.

[Rynth]

Easily countered by 1 warlock. Anyone else locking the jack will just end up dead because it can buy more melee attacks, the thing is we have a fast creature that can leap + open fist (with the spell) + blight field.
Cant say Im not a little puzzled why this is getting errataed.

People really think this needs errata? seriously? one warlock, with a marginal trick, requires a major rules reworking. *shrug* i really dont think this is as big an issue as people are making it out to be.

It is a bit more extensive a problem than just 1 warlock.
Any warmachine army that takes Eyriss2 can buy a turn of locked colossal impotence(barring Hyperion, IIRC) at the cost of 3 points + the cheapest lock capable beast/jack they have and they can easily strip any upkeeps from the colossal.
Mortenebra can basically do the same thing as Absylonia, but she has to spend a few more points on the locking model. A Seether gets the weapon lock as part of its Chain Attack so can, to an extent, charge and weapon lock.
Reznik's feat can buy a turn.
Any Skorne warlock can take an Agonizer and keep it 9" from the colossal. A Bronzeback even gets the weapon lock as part of its Chain Attack so can, to an extent, charge and weapon lock.

This probably isn't a complete list of non-disrupt "cannot be allocated" abilities, just enough to show the problem is not contained to just Absylonia. Who knows how extensive the errata will be. Limiting locks to base size or smaller brings locks in line with other power attacks, base size +1 keeps lights able to lock heavies but removes their ability to lock colossals. Neither seems like a "major rules reworking."

It is good to know that there is errata incoming, now just a matter od when. Hopefully before GenCon?

[Crate123]

Well supposedly there was a errata coming for shield guard as well. Havent seen that yet.
While I agree its not just an issue with absylonia, pretty much all other models that can lock does not have the mobility that the raek has and it has stealth so its not that easy for a colossal to kill on the way in.
I honestly dont see an issue, you have a specific combo that can somewhat handle the new powerful colossals. Many times that model will die doing that lock. Let us hope that errata includes a "Temporal Barrier does not stop charges anymore"

[Neutralyze]

Killing a raek is an ordeal. i don't know how you can say otherwise. The footprint the colossals take up on the field will limit what can get to the raek. If you're really worried about the raek dying ou can always hot swap forced Eco on it after you upkeep PG and it locks the colossal.

[Kalaris]

its a huge deal, as these things don't occur in a vacuum,

So, I've locked up 19-20 pts of your models with 4pts of models (and some spare caster fury) so "just kill the raek" right? well what are you going to kill the Raek with? 5 more points of models maybe? what do you think the rest of my 21 points of models are going to be doing? standing around letting you kill the Raek? hell to the no. I already have a huge advantage on you, I'm going to keep it.

as much as this ruling favors me (as I play abby and raeks in about 60% of my games) I expect it will get nerfed because as an everblight player, I don't need more I-win buttons.

[SageofLodoss]

Killing a raek is an ordeal. i don't know how you can say otherwise. The footprint the colossals take up on the field will limit what can get to the raek. If you're really worried about the raek dying ou can always hot swap forced Eco on it after you upkeep PG and it locks the colossal.

I agree. If you had a lot of stuff in front of the colossal, you'd be busy killing that stuff anyway, and if stuff is behind it, just position the Raek on the side where they'll have difficulty walking around that 5 inch base to get to him.

Put Tenacity on him and he'll be DEF 16, 20 against shooting and Stealth.

The Colossal could try to smite him, but with Blight Field up, he'll be trying to hit DEF 15-16 with no boosts.

[Rynth]

The Colossal could try to smite him, but with Blight Field up, he'll be trying to hit DEF 15-16 with no boosts.

Only if you put the Raek in an unlocked field of fire.
Colossal can't move(including changing facing) due to being locked. The Locked system cannot be used to make power attacks while locked. A model cannot make initial attacks with locked weapons. Blight Field will prevent the colossal from getting the focus to make additional or power attacks.
So if the Raek isn't in both fields of fire the Colossal cannot do anything to it other than block access to the Raek and increase its DEF against Ranged and Magic attacks.

[SageofLodoss]

Only if you put the Raek in an unlocked field of fire.
Colossal can't move(including changing facing) due to being locked. The Locked system cannot be used to make power attacks while locked. A model cannot make initial attacks with locked weapons. Blight Field will prevent the colossal from getting the focus to make additional or power attacks.
So if the Raek isn't in both fields of fire the Colossal cannot do anything to it other than block access to the Raek and increase its DEF against Ranged and Magic attacks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the last errata says that the locked model gets to attempt to break the lock (which the Colossal would easily do), and if successfu, can make initial attacks with the newly free weapon. So he would get one unboostable attack. Usually not something you'd worry about unless your opponent's been rolling like a legend.

[Kalaris]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the last errata says that the locked model gets to attempt to break the lock (which the Colossal would easily do), and if successfu, can make initial attacks with the newly free weapon. So he would get one unboostable attack. Usually not something you'd worry about unless your opponent's been rolling like a legend.

Yes they can attack with the newly freed weapons, but if the Raek is in the colossal back arc, they can't swing at him, so it only matters if there's OTHER models in the colossal front arc, the Raek is safe, because the colossal can't turn, and the ruling says they can't shoot either.

Free lockdown.

[Neutralyze]

It's all about locking then with a raek wih Abby and playing go in conjunction with blight field. Southey break the lock but can't force further.

[blackleagionair]

cool grate options.

[Trygle]

Pfffft. The one awesome thing I heard about shutting down colossals and they are going to errata it.

Guess I have to look into another means of a "*** Colossals" list.

[Crate123]

Pfffft. The one awesome thing I heard about shutting down colossals and they are going to errata it.

Guess I have to look into another means of a "*** Colossals" list.

Well shield guard was going to be errataed as well, we all know how that went...

[Earthcrosser599]

A Bronzeback even gets the weapon lock as part of its Chain Attack so can, to an extent, charge and weapon lock.

Pfaf. The lock isn't necessary here because the colossal won't survive the Bronzeback.

[MinaFangirlOfEverblight]

Yes they can attack with the newly freed weapons, but if the Raek is in the colossal back arc, they can't swing at him, so it only matters if there's OTHER models in the colossal front arc, the Raek is safe, because the colossal can't turn, and the ruling says they can't shoot either.

Free lockdown.

...is the colossal facing backwards? because if not, and the raek is locking from behind, your enemy should have models to deal with the raek. if the colossal is facing forward, he can break free and attack the raek if locked in the front. if same but from behind, there should be something back there to deal with it.

[PG_dkindt]

Breaking the lock in this case would essentially take the initial attacks away (being that the other initial attack is in a different arc and the lock prevents you from moving or changing facing). Due to Blight Field, the colossal can't be allocated focus and therefore can't buy more attacks.

This of course, doesn't prevent other models from trying to deal with it, but due to things like the colossal's base size, in combat bonus, and high def of the raek, its gonna be a pain!

Just trying to clear the situation up for a few people who seem to be misunderstanding.

[PG_vengence88]

...is the colossal facing backwards? because if not, and the raek is locking from behind, your enemy should have models to deal with the raek. if the colossal is facing forward, he can break free and attack the raek if locked in the front. if same but from behind, there should be something back there to deal with it.

I'm with this^^^ the Raek should be dead regardless of positioning really. If colossals means a bunch of feat nerfs and erratas, then I'm glad I haven't sent in my application for pressganger.

[PG_Nemlock]

I'm not sure about anyone else, but the games I've seen so far have most of their army screening the colossal, with just a caster/support in the back. It's not like someone is going to park BLT and Bane Thralls BEHIND the Kraken.The caster could kill it and spend some resources, sure. But that's focus that's not being shifted anywhere else, and a caster that could be exposing himself depending on your/his models. At worst your 4 points is forcing something to happen. We all have to factor in trades into our game anyway. "If my Scythean charges this do I have something to counter the heavy/troops that will charge him back?" This is just another trade to think about.

[Belthazar1113]

one other quick thing, how likely is the raek's weapon lock actually going to work? most of these guys have inordinantly high str, so what are the odds of actually winning the roll to lock it down? it doesn't seem like its really going to happen that much with the jump kitty. sure you can buy a big strong heavy to have a big chance, but then you are paying more points for it....

so why is this such a huge deal? collosals have the same weaknesses as a heavy and the same thigns work vs them, only magnified because they are magnified version of heavys. seems like a choice you make when you feild it and doesn't really need any rules change to "balance" that choice.

[CaptBooyah]

one other quick thing, how likely is the raek's weapon lock actually going to work? most of these guys have inordinantly high str, so what are the odds of actually winning the roll to lock it down? it doesn't seem like its really going to happen that much with the jump kitty. sure you can buy a big strong heavy to have a big chance, but then you are paying more points for it....

so why is this such a huge deal? collosals have the same weaknesses as a heavy and the same thigns work vs them, only magnified because they are magnified version of heavys. seems like a choice you make when you feild it and doesn't really need any rules change to "balance" that choice.

You don't need contested str to apply the lock. Yes, it is impossible for the colossal not to break the lock but the damage has been done... with 4 pts, you've locked a 19pt investment from being fully effective like moving, firing all of its guns, putting down covering fire (muchhate) or doing its sweep attack with either of its fists,. for at least one turn. If you get killed in the meantime, all the best to your opponent, because that clearly cost him the activation of something else to do it.. something else that could've been up in your face instead. The trade off and forcing that trade off is important to general colossal strategy. I for one would be delighted if pHayley had to spend 2-3 focus trying to remove my Raek from her Stormwall's left arm.

It's not even an Abby issue, she's just the one that can really push this home for Legion. You can still do with with any of our beasts with open fists (Ravagore/Carnivean) The Raek is the best option mainly because it can move 13" (by itself, add your other movement synergy to increase) to get that lock on. Hell, with leap, it can be behind the colossal and not have to even worry about additional attacks if you don't blight field.

It's not a surefire strategy to deal with a colossal but at least it's another strategy than 'kill it with lots of attacks' which irritates me when it's all I can choose to do.

[Anosse]

You can still do with with any of our beasts with open fists (Ravagore/Carnivean)

Honestly If I had a Carnivean that close I would have Forced Evolution on it and be beating on the colossal rather than trying to lock its weapons.

[Gsot]

Honestly If I had a Carnivean that close I would have Forced Evolution on it and be beating on the colossal rather than trying to lock its weapons.

It's more of an option thing, something to be aware of with a Carnivean.

Say they have caster and colossal left, colossal isn't in zone they need to contest, weapon lock guarantees you win or their caster is now in the zone. Which you should then be playing for.... After this thread hopefully a few players will go "zomg I has an idea!". At 35 points it'll happen more than you think.

[Khaunshar]

It's more of an option thing, something to be aware of with a Carnivean.

Say they have caster and colossal left, colossal isn't in zone they need to contest, weapon lock guarantees you win or their caster is now in the zone. Which you should then be playing for.... After this thread hopefully a few players will go "zomg I has an idea!". At 35 points it'll happen more than you think.

Plus, consider casters like Saeryn, which utterly lack any way of increasing damage output of her beasts, in particular if she doesnt have access to the BFS, or they went down to the first round of barrages.

Legion is not that great at cracking colossals IMO, since we have neither the big P+S numbers on our premier warlocks, nor the exceptional infantry-based damage of others.

On a sidenote, I believe the C-Rex is going to make a few appearances in tournament play soon. It never was a BAD beast, just overshadowed by the scythean, but its usefulness vs. colossals is very nice (spray through huge base, P+S 18 on additional attacks, open fists)

[SteakAndSpirits]

Legion is not that great at cracking colossals IMO, since we have neither the big P+S numbers on our premier warlocks, nor the exceptional infantry-based damage of others.

Disagree. Black Frost Shard is a +2 damage buff that's universally applicable to each of our WLs. That puts Scytheans (Which are a frequent and popular choice, whether or not Colossals are on the table) at P+S: 19. With Thagrosh1, Absyolonia, Vayl1, and Kallus that can be directly increased to P+S: 21. Lylyth1 can increase it to an effective rating of P+S: 22. And Thagrosh 2 puts it into the P+S: 21-22 range based on averages over time with Manifest Destiny. That leaves Lylyth2, Rhyas, Saeryn, and Bethayne without ways to directly increase damage. Of those, Lylyth2 outthreats it singnificantly, while Saeryn can both Breathstealer to slow it's advance, as well as take an extra turn in melee range without fear of retribution.

My estimation is that Legion is as well equipped, if not better equipped, than its peers. Both in the native abilities of the majority of WLs, in addition to the augmentative abilities granted by including the BFS.

-s&s

[Khaunshar]

Disagree. Black Frost Shard is a +2 damage buff that's universally applicable to each of our WLs. That puts Scytheans (Which are a frequent and popular choice, whether or not Colossals are on the table) at P+S: 19. With Thagrosh1, Absyolonia, Vayl1, and Kallus that can be directly increased to P+S: 21. Lylyth1 can increase it to an effective rating of P+S: 22. And Thagrosh 2 puts it into the P+S: 21-22 range based on averages over time with Manifest Destiny. That leaves Lylyth2, Rhyas, Saeryn, and Bethayne without ways to directly increase damage. Of those, Lylyth2 outthreats it singnificantly, while Saeryn can both Breathstealer to slow it's advance, as well as take an extra turn in melee range without fear of retribution.

My estimation is that Legion is as well equipped, if not better equipped, than its peers. Both in the native abilities of the majority of WLs, in addition to the augmentative abilities granted by including the BFS.

-s&s

While I would love your scenario to be true, I dont believe this is the case on the table.
The BFS has a number of big problems. 1) its CHARACTER, thus only one list can include it. 2) to be able to hit the enemy colossal with Kiss of Lyliss, the correct member has to be in relatively close range to the colossal to begin with. 3) It is slow if stealthed, and dead if unstealthed, and very susceptible to blast damage, which colossals have in abundance. 4) It is only one very specific, and easily identifiable model.
In reality, I doubt you ll get to use that much against an opponent who knows what they are doing, and realize that its worth quite some points in sacrifice to remove your main approach to dealing with his colossal.

Second, with Lylyth2, Saeryn and B+B having issues with colossals, that makes two of our 3 top tier casters, plus one that is at least solid to upper-tier, that have issues with the colossals. Now, these casters are not top tier by randomness, they are consistently necessary to win. This weakness to colossals might very translate into us needing to bring warlocks less suited to competitive play just to deal with them, which in turn drastically reduces our chances of winning. In return, almost all colossals so far can be played, and actually even seem made for, top tier casters for the other factions.
To run Stormwall, you dont have to change anything but pay the points, and your army gets better. To fight AGAINST Stormwall with Legion, it looks like your best bet is sacrificing the better warlock in order to get access to an important ability on a lesser warlock to deal with a single, albeit expensive, enemy model.

For what its worth, we are not the only ones having this problem. Kromac, for example, has to rely on Primal to get the job done, and even then due to his medium base is not happy about colossals at all. Though the Ghetorix helps, its again a character beast, thus not always available. And lets not even get started on Gators ....

I ll of course give it a few tries, but so far I am rather hesitant to claim we wont mind colossals much. P+S 18 is not enough to deal with properly supported colossals, and Saeryns feat does not prevent the colossal from doing what actually makes him dangerous: Shoot and kill Saeryn with blast damage, fire or direct hits.

The longer I think about it, the more it seems the days of Saeryn as our powerhouse are close to being over.

[Crate123]

While I would love your scenario to be true, I dont believe this is the case on the table.
The BFS has a number of big problems. 1) its CHARACTER, thus only one list can include it. 2) to be able to hit the enemy colossal with Kiss of Lyliss, the correct member has to be in relatively close range to the colossal to begin with. 3) It is slow if stealthed, and dead if unstealthed, and very susceptible to blast damage, which colossals have in abundance. 4) It is only one very specific, and easily identifiable model.
In reality, I doubt you ll get to use that much against an opponent who knows what they are doing, and realize that its worth quite some points in sacrifice to remove your main approach to dealing with his colossal.

Second, with Lylyth2, Saeryn and B+B having issues with colossals, that makes two of our 3 top tier casters, plus one that is at least solid to upper-tier, that have issues with the colossals. Now, these casters are not top tier by randomness, they are consistently necessary to win. This weakness to colossals might very translate into us needing to bring warlocks less suited to competitive play just to deal with them, which in turn drastically reduces our chances of winning. In return, almost all colossals so far can be played, and actually even seem made for, top tier casters for the other factions.
To run Stormwall, you dont have to change anything but pay the points, and your army gets better. To fight AGAINST Stormwall with Legion, it looks like your best bet is sacrificing the better warlock in order to get access to an important ability on a lesser warlock to deal with a single, albeit expensive, enemy model.

For what its worth, we are not the only ones having this problem. Kromac, for example, has to rely on Primal to get the job done, and even then due to his medium base is not happy about colossals at all. Though the Ghetorix helps, its again a character beast, thus not always available. And lets not even get started on Gators ....

I ll of course give it a few tries, but so far I am rather hesitant to claim we wont mind colossals much. P+S 18 is not enough to deal with properly supported colossals, and Saeryns feat does not prevent the colossal from doing what actually makes him dangerous: Shoot and kill Saeryn with blast damage, fire or direct hits.

The longer I think about it, the more it seems the days of Saeryn as our powerhouse are close to being over.

I dont see Saeryn have trouble with the colossals. on feat turn you run something into melee with the colossal so it cant aim and you put tenacity on Saeryn, she now has 19 def vs shooting and is immune to blast damage. Good luck killing her with a colossal especially if she has a fury or 2 on her.
If you remember to bring a Naga with you at all times, I dont see any of our warlocks having impossible odds against the colossals.

[Kalaris]

Even if BFS isn't the best option.... I have to ask.

Why all y'all scared of "properly supported" colossals, we have the naga night lurker coming, armor 23? I think not. Armor 19 we'll be striking their unbuffed values (for the most part)

2 Scytheans with Naga Animus can wreck any colossal, and thats not even a warlock based solution.

only one of your 2 lists has to be a colossal killer.

[SteakAndSpirits]

The BFS has a number of big problems.

...

I agree that leveraging the BFS is not an automatic condition. You've outlined a number of reasons why it may be challenging. I believe these balancing considerations are what opened up the design space around the BFS, and provided them inclusion into our faction. So while I agree that your assessment identifies concerns over the board, I think those concerns are among those things that make our games ripe with uncertain outcomes. I suggest that despite these challenges in many cases, BFS will be able to advance sufficiently close to a Collossal, will have LOS to it (automatically), and will successfully hit it with a damage increase against it.

The fact that they're universally applicable is an excellent point in Legion's favor.

Second, with Lylyth2, Saeryn and B+B having issues with colossals, that makes two of our 3 top tier casters, plus one that is at least solid to upper-tier, that have issues with the colossals. Now, these casters are not top tier by randomness, they are consistently necessary to win.

I disagree that Lylyth2 and Searyn will have issues with Colossals. I believe they will largely remain intact. It's true that I left out Lylyth2 as having a way to enhanced a Scythean's direct damage output to a Colossal, but that's hardly the full story. Pin Cushion adds an average of around +2 damage per hit to a target. Lylyth2 not only dramatically outthreats a Colossal, but also brings exactly the sort of volume of fire capable of capitalizing on Pin Cushion. Additionally, Lylyth2 is /more/ effective against high point cost, low model count enemy armies. Not /less/ effective. The concentration of points into a single, ripe juicy target won't phase Lylyth -- She'll nuke it from orbit (it's the only way to be sure).

And this has only been enhanced by the inclusion of the Naga.

I also suspect that Saeryn will likewise remain unphased. Her feat is still a turn of melee immunity, which means a Colossal that attempts to engage her battlegroup will need to use its ranged weapons. In most cases, that's a poor use of an 18-20 point model. Additionally, Breath stealer will be increasingly effective as 18-20 points of an opponent's army is paralyzed with a massively debilitating SPD debuff. That can't be dispelled.

In both cases, Collossals may present a challenge. But that challenge is surmountable.

-s&s