Help VS Mortenebra

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

So, Just started playing warmachine about 2-3 months ago. My friend plays Cryx (man I hate cryx) and we have a 30 pt Mangled Metal coming up.

My list is going to be

Ossyan
Banshee
Hypnos
Pheonix
Sphinx (because there is only 7pts left)

Alternatively I could

Bansheex2
Hypnos
Chimera

My problem is he has Mortenebra (man I hate Cryx)
and being an attachment exclusive to Mort he gets his Deryliss. Time after time he just casts spectral steel and walks/charges to my caster and will nuke me ignoring free strikes. He can get that thing yo-yo'd so far.

Now thankfully I have a partner who is Khador (it's for the Thornwood League) to bring in some real jack force. I need help with beating him. It has been said before, Cryx's worst casters are better than our best ones it seems. Just looking for some tips and tricks to dealing with his denial denying abilities like jump start and spectral steel.

((Edit: MAN I hate Cryx)

[Gho5t]

You're bringing a lot of heavies; block the charge lanes. I've never played Mortenebra, but I believe Ghostly doesn't allow you to walk through models, just obstructions. He shouldn't be able to waltz past you if your myrmidons are in the way.

If I'm mistaken, you can also camp some large bases near your 'caster. He can't finish his advance next to you unless the model can get completely past your bases.

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

You're bringing a lot of heavies; block the charge lanes. I've never played Mortenebra, but I believe Ghostly doesn't allow you to walk through models, just obstructions. He shouldn't be able to waltz past you if your myrmidons are in the way.

If I'm mistaken, you can also camp some large bases near your 'caster. He can't finish his advance next to you unless the model can get completely past your bases.

That basically involves sacrificing a Jack. DJ will destroy any jack in one turn. and seeing as I am below on the model count he can just Overrun away and send the Reaper to pull in the next jack for Ripjaw and Cankerworm to slaughter one more.

2 Focus from skulls and he charges into a jacks face. 3 attacks + 1 from the remaining focus = wrecked jack. Reaper advances, pulls in another jack (usually the other banshee) and Ripjaw and Canker eat him for lunch with 3 focus each. So infuriating. skarlock drops spectral steel on DJ so he can scoot away from the scene of the crime if he is infact engaged. than he wins the attrition game.

[Gho5t]

That basically involves sacrificing a Jack. DJ will destroy any jack in one turn. and seeing as I am below on the model count he can just Overrun away and send the Reaper to pull in the next jack for Ripjaw and Cankerworm to slaughter one more.

2 Focus from skulls and he charges into a jacks face. 3 attacks + 1 from the remaining focus = wrecked jack. Reaper advances, pulls in another jack (usually the other banshee) and Ripjaw and Canker eat him for lunch with 3 focus each. So infuriating. skarlock drops spectral steel on DJ so he can scoot away from the scene of the crime if he is infact engaged. than he wins the attrition game.

It shouldn't involve sacrificing a myrmidon blocking the charge lanes. You block them to keep him from getting a cheap assassination on you, but you still shoot 'em up.

You've got a great combination with Banshee + Hypnos; use them on DJ. He'll still get a couple of focus to shake the knockdown, but it limits him. If you have some extra focus, use Arcantrik Bolt to make him more infuriated with Stationary.

Treat it like you would a Hordes army; one model at a time. Once you take down DJ, it'll become much more manageable. You'll probably want your feat turn for it, but remember you can still still boost to roll 4 dice on damage.

Granted, it still may be tough since Morty is a far more legitimate 'jack 'caster, but you do have some tools at your disposal. Don't give up, don't paint yourself into a "omg omg there's no way to win" mentality. Once you've allowed yourself to find no hope, you've allowed yourself to never win.

[Cyryst]

My opinion for what its worth

Banshee
Hypnos
Hydra
Manticore

Keep admonition on the manticore who can play forward a little, or Hypnos.
the manticore gives you some melee punch if need be, or just lends 3 pw12 shots under feat which with the KD of a banshee is a nearly certainly dead something
With chronomancer up the Hydra becomes stupidly focus efficient, this can snipe away at Morty using its superior range. hypnos will take your hits, but with admo on it, you can rush it forward, use Arcantrik bolt to knock out a jack of his and then admo away from the one that charges, if your lucky your still alive, you can swat it with a fist and then its an easy target for the manticore and banshee duo to wreck.

Oh also if your using guns to your advantage use terrain sit behind small walls, hedges, poking out around the corners of immobile objects, the reaper has to shoot and pull in a straight line, and if you can obstruct that straight line he cant pull you in.

[The Horror]

I've never played Mortenebra, but I believe Ghostly doesn't allow you to walk through models, just obstructions. He shouldn't be able to waltz past you if your myrmidons are in the way.

Ghostly doesn't let you walk through models, but Scavengers have flight, and with Spectral Steel on them there's nothing stopping him from flying over your army for the assassination. Scavenger jack bullet with Mortenebra is nasty, with a 19.5 inch threat range due to Overrun and Terminal Velocity, and it should be one of the first things you focus down. DO NOT underestimate the flying chicken, because against your caster it's going to have boosted attack rolls at dice -8 and damage rolls at dice -4 before factoring in focus, with Mortenebra's Doom Spiral almost assuring it get's finisher on all of it's attacks. The second jack to watch out for is the Desecrator, because if it reaches your caster TV will give it boosted attack rolls which combine with her feat means Crit Shred just became really easy to pull off.

As long as he has a Scavenger still alive I'd recommend keeping Admonition on Ossyan, this way he can't assassinate out of nowhere on turn two. Mortenebra excels at killing living models, which luckily you only have one. Aside from feat turn she has no way to improve her army's accuracy or damage output. Remember overrun only triggers if he gets a kill which is a lot harder when there are no infantry on the board, so don't feed her any jacks as a sacrifice unless you really have too. Mortenebra runs herself dry of focus every turn so you can take advantage of that. If she's playing too far up she'll be an easy kill, and if you ever have a ranged weapon in range of her take the shot.

[BrotherOracle]

I second the use of a manticore for the reasons mentioned.

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

It shouldn't involve sacrificing a myrmidon blocking the charge lanes. You block them to keep him from getting a cheap assassination on you, but you still shoot 'em up.

You've got a great combination with Banshee + Hypnos; use them on DJ. He'll still get a couple of focus to shake the knockdown, but it limits him. If you have some extra focus, use Arcantrik Bolt to make him more infuriated with Stationary.

Treat it like you would a Hordes army; one model at a time. Once you take down DJ, it'll become much more manageable. You'll probably want your feat turn for it, but remember you can still still boost to roll 4 dice on damage.

Granted, it still may be tough since Morty is a far more legitimate 'jack 'caster, but you do have some tools at your disposal. Don't give up, don't paint yourself into a "omg omg there's no way to win" mentality. Once you've allowed yourself to find no hope, you've allowed yourself to never win.

Jumpstart costs 1 focus. Deryliss can cast it for free.. or she can cast Spectral Steel for free and have Mort spend 1 focus to jumpstart. Either way Stationary and Knockdown don't apply to him which is incredibly annoying.

[ForceFields!!!]

Mortenbra in mangeld metal is really hard to fight. I fight her alot

Best bet is to use a Manticore and knock the scavengers out of the sky first. They should be priority number 1, the other jacks there are just distractions

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

It shouldn't involve sacrificing a myrmidon blocking the charge lanes. You block them to keep him from getting a cheap assassination on you, but you still shoot 'em up.

You've got a great combination with Banshee + Hypnos; use them on DJ. He'll still get a couple of focus to shake the knockdown, but it limits him. If you have some extra focus, use Arcantrik Bolt to make him more infuriated with Stationary.

Treat it like you would a Hordes army; one model at a time. Once you take down DJ, it'll become much more manageable. You'll probably want your feat turn for it, but remember you can still still boost to roll 4 dice on damage.

Granted, it still may be tough since Morty is a far more legitimate 'jack 'caster, but you do have some tools at your disposal. Don't give up, don't paint yourself into a "omg omg there's no way to win" mentality. Once you've allowed yourself to find no hope, you've allowed yourself to never win.

Jumpstart costs 1 focus. Deryliss can cast it for free.. or she can cast Spectral Steel for free and have Mort spend 1 focus to jumpstart. Either way Stationary and Knockdown don't apply to him which is incredibly annoying.

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

Mortenbra in mangeld metal is really hard to fight. I fight her alot

Best bet is to use a Manticore and knock the scavengers out of the sky first. They should be priority number 1, the other jacks there are just distractions

I'm actually pretty lucky in part that he doesn't have scavengers. Just the Cankerworm,Deathripper, Deathjack, Harrower, Reaper for the most part

[The Horror]

Deryliss can not cast range 'self' spells so no Jump start or terminal velocity, Mortenebra will have to cast those herself.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

I don't want to talk down Mortenebra, because she's good. But it does sound an awful lot like your opponent is interpreting rules and not reading them. Deryliss is awesome, but can only do so much. As noted, Jump Start is not one of those things. Also, Ghostly is good, but it's not super-Incorporeal. In any matchup, following the rules will make a big difference.

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

Deryliss can not cast range 'self' spells so no Jump start or terminal velocity, Mortenebra will have to cast those herself.

While good to know, doesn't help my predicament. Mort can just cast the required stuff and derylis can do spectral steel.

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

Edit:duplicate post

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

In terms of my opponent following rules. He is, I just failed at explanation of what he does. Derylis casts spectral steel, mort does the rest of the required shenanigans. He's not ignoring models with SS just the free strikes I use to block my charge lanes and any free strikes he would take while yoyo-ing DJ

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

Holy geez posting on a phone sucks. So many duplicates.

[joelker41]

I could be breaking the laws of reality here....but what about packing a Gorgon?

Morty players often group their 'jacks and tying up either DJ or a seether mid-game could be pretty effective.

I know, its a Gorgon.

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

Mind=blown... My question than would be than, what to replace for gorgon? As after thinking it over I'm lookin at 2 banshee, Hypnos and chimera. Putting chimera with admonition and apparition may just allow for the assassination on mort, or some really well placed Arcantrik bolts.

[Gho5t]

In terms of my opponent following rules. He is, I just failed at explanation of what he does. Derylis casts spectral steel, mort does the rest of the required shenanigans. He's not ignoring models with SS just the free strikes I use to block my charge lanes and any free strikes he would take while yoyo-ing DJ

If all these spells are cast, how much focus can the jacks have to attack? I dunno Morty very well.

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

If all these spells are cast, how much focus can the jacks have to attack? I dunno Morty very well.

Jump start is 1 focus. IF he even needs it. Derylis can cast or SS or Overrun(Saving 3 focus) mort casts the spectral steel or Overrun depending which derylis casted. And terminal velocity for 3 focus each. That's 6/7 focus not including jumpstart. A deathjack can charge for free with terminal velocity. Smack whatever jack he charges 5 times, 6 without the jumpstart, most likely killing it and than running away with over run.

[SjoerdH]

Personally I would never play Mortenebra in mangle metal as she fails against warmachines (she rocks agains hordes though). Her main abilities barely work against an army composed mostly of warjacks. Overrun becomes less reliable and Terminal Velocity will only work against your caster. Take our Deryliss. Beware the Scavengers (upkeep adminition) and send the disruptive abilities of Hypnos against Deatjack. You should be fine than.

Remember:
1. terminal velocity does not give boosts, free charges or speed bonusses against jacks. That eliminates Morty's main ability.
2. ghostly not allows you to walk through models. Spectral steel on scavenger can be deadly though. Scavengers have high def but very low armor and hit boxes. Setting them on fire with phoenix will give you fried chicken
3. overrun only triggers on a kill
4. terminal velocity and feat are aura's a jack can quickly walk out of range
5. deryliss can't cast jump start or termninal velocity

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

Terminal velocity doesn't grant free charges against jacks? And if it does than you automatically get a boosted damage roll for charging. Why can't derylis cast spectral steel? It's 3 focus and has a range. While overrun only triggers on kill with 5 deathjack attacks SOMETHING is dying.

You've shown me a light and I hope it's not false lok.

[SjoerdH]

Terminal velocity doesn't grant free charges against jacks? And if it does than you automatically get a boosted damage roll for charging.

Terminal Velocity gives 3 abilities: boosted attack, free charge & power attack, free charge. However all these abilities only work against living models. None of them works against jacks.

Why can't derylis cast spectral steel? It's 3 focus and has a range.

Honest mistake here, sorry. I meant terminal velocity & jump start....

While overrun only triggers on kill with 5 deathjack attacks SOMETHING is dying.

True for death jack. But that means that death jack will have to be the overrun target. Kill deryliss and either Morty will need to get close & vulnerable to cast overrun, or death jack must waste his own focus.

[milothewise]

Terminal Velocity gives 3 abilities: boosted attack, free charge & power attack, free charge. However all these abilities only work against living models. None of them works against jacks.

False. You still get the free charge and power attacks. No boosted attack rolls or +2 to charge unless the target is a living model.

Denying Morty an easy Overrun move is your best bet in a MM game. Use your guns to pressure her, and when you put something in charge range, make sure it's a jack she will have to work hard to put down (i.e. a heavy). Back up all your jacks with a counter-charge model, so if he attempts a DJ yo-yo, he'll move back 6" and still be in charge range (hard with the wreck marker there, but at least make him think about it ).

[Cyryst]

Reading over the advice given I fall back to the list I suggested. Hypnos is by far going to take the most damage, the manticore will do damage, the Banshee will become your enabler and the Hydra your scalpel for jabbing at morty.
Scare her, make her camp that focus, disrupt and knock down as much as possible, so she needs to spend that focus. if any of those jacks gets within 9 inches of the manticore they better be prepared for a world of hurt, after your banshee obligingly KDs it.
Also I dont know if the opportunity arises but remember the Banshees wailing. Pretty sure it doesnt specify living models, it can mess up Derilyss or mortys activation by using its spell denial.

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

I'm now looking at pVyros for birds eye. Thinking chimera, bansheex2 and hydra. He plays fairly up forward with his jacks. I think having that ignore intervening models could be huge. If we make him come to me. Relying on knockdown and void lock just won't cut it. I think going for the assassination will be the best route.

[Cyryst]

Ive actually liked Hypnos with pVyros, you dont get the bond but with IR on Hypnos you have a very very tanky jack for ret + its an arcnode.

[Thamarite Merc]

You got more firepower at ranged and he got the squishier jacks. If there are no scenarios involved and Ossyan uses his temporal distortion effectively, you should have 2, maybe 3 solid turns of shooting before melee starts, and can make use of Future Sight to make that shots count.
The DJ won't get any souls from you, so it can't heal itself and has to be more cautious than usual around your big guns. Things just can't be as desperate as you are making them out to be. Morty starts with a few more models, but she should have less than you by the time she pops her feat.

The solution to your woes will break down to positioning your BG where it has a good field of fire, selecting the right target for the right gun, concentrating enough fire on one jack to cripple it and not wasting your shots on thrashing already crippled jacks.

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

Using ossyan's temporal distortion occurred to me. But outside his gun everybody is going to be running up to engage my jacks. What kind of list would you suggest? Stick with shooty manticore/hydra and banshee's? I guess I could throw ossyan up front with admonition to get that reliable shot off. If I miss that shot though I'm toast. I appreciate your input by the way, thanks!

Woul also like to point out that on average dice I'm doing maybe 2 damage to DJ at 19 arm. No damage at 21 arm with spectral steel. Boosted that is 5 damage and 2 Damage respectively. Assuming he doesn't repair DJ before sending him in. I don't see how I could effectively cripple him before he gets in unless I luckily cripple a cortex.

[Thamarite Merc]

Well, after you shoot at the Deathjack with Ossy, walk one of your jacks in front of Ossy to break Line of Sight, and have all your jacks salvo. You got 4 heavy jacks, who can also shoot, a solid amount of Focus and the Chronomancer spell, the DJ will take damage. And only be able to walk the next turn.
After which you can back away and barrage again, so he won't be right on top of you the next turn either.

Given the solid range of your guns and the fact, that his heavies aren't faster than yours, this could theoretically go on forever until the DJ is a scrap marker, but off course the Morty player will use his other jacks and the terrain to put pressure on you.
Its a game of cat and mouse, the basic ranged attrition game. The more of his jacks get into melee intact, the worse for you, but until that happens you have to get to work scrapping as much of his battlegroup as you can.

Some people in this thread already gave advice which jacks they would use. I hope your opponent isn't squeemish about proxies, as you should test out, which battlegroup works best for you.

[NEoJoe]

This makes me wanna do this matchup now...

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

I feel slightly stupid for asking this. But whatdo you mean by having jacks salvo?
Also, my opponent is always measuring overtop there models. It's quite frequently changing DJ's 7 inch move to 8 without him realising. Or a 10 inch charge to 11... Being that ossy's gun is 12 inches this type of strategic movement can be difficult to pull off. Though I now see how this will work. Hydra will definitely be making it to the list.

Thank you for the insight.

[Cyryst]

precise, careful, pragmatic measurement is extremely important to warmachine, specifically a good game. If your not aware of it and the ways it can affect the game then someone may unintentionally be getting a great benefit out of it over you, or visa versa. always measure from point to point when moving, front to front of base or back to back. when in doubt sometimes it helps to use the spray template to draw a direct line. When walking around bases and into or out of difficult terrain using a "melee widget" 2" and .5" measurement tool to make sure your spending the correct amount of movement to go around.
Ill say again this kind of measurement is very important to the game play in general, not just for Ossyan or Ret.

[newsun]

I agree, I was just thinking about this with a casual game I recently had where I'm pretty sure at least .5" was gained by hovering with the tape over the models and leaning instead of putting the tape closer to the table like where the bases actually are. I just wish I was not time pressed, so I could have showed my opponent how to move a little better without flaw.

[Thamarite Merc]

Well, salvo and barrage weren't meant as technical terms. It just meant "concentrate on shooting". And, yes, you should be stingy with measurement. Btw the DJ has a 6 inch move stat, 7 inch is bonejack territory.

[MasterMarglar]

Since you are all talking was wondering what is his cryx army list so we can understand what else he is using in the 35 point army. That might also help others in helping you.

Now ? with terminal velocity he gets a power attack and a charge attack or am i reading that wrong. any clarification thanks

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

Since you are all talking was wondering what is his cryx army list so we can understand what else he is using in the 35 point army. That might also help others in helping you.

Now ? with terminal velocity he gets a power attack and a charge attack or am i reading that wrong. any clarification thanks

Just a charge or power attack. Not both.

I'll try to recall his list as best as possible. Bound to be discrepency though

Deathjack
Reaper
Harrower
Ripjaw
Slayer
Cankerworm