Colossal issue

[MathPasta]

I don't think he sucks either. Just that...I donno. Just underwhelming.

[Madhiggins]

don't worry MathPast, i think he kind of sucks. maybe not the worst model in Khador, but certainly nowhere near the best and certainly by far the worst colossal.

[Tossy]

don't worry MathPast, i think he kind of sucks. maybe not the worst model in Khador, but certainly nowhere near the best and certainly by far the worst colossal.

I am not sure you have seen the Kraken

[John of Arc]

don't worry MathPast, i think he kind of sucks. maybe not the worst model in Khador, but certainly nowhere near the best and certainly by far the worst colossal.

How is he the worst colossal? How can you even make that claim, let alone that he is the worst colossal by far? Do you really think he is not only worse than, but worse than by a very significant margin, the Kraken and Hyperion?

[x3tsniper]

Not a fan of him. I suspect he will make my Harkevich list, and not a lot else.

[Gandalfrockman]

I don't think he sucks either. Just that...I donno. Just underwhelming.

When you put it that way, I don't think our views are that far apart.
If theres an invisible line that represents "acceptable", and you are just to a bit left of it, Im a little to the right.

I'm not saying Conquest is a super fantastic peice, or that it will crop up in a ton of lists, but I can certainly see running it in a karchev or harkevich list.
And running two of them seems like it would be fun in a silly noncompetitive list.... But I havent seen it proxied like that yet.

[x3tsniper]

I can't really see running him in a Karchev list. One of the only things that really makes Karchev a 1/3rd decent jack caster in my book is his access to Tow, and Conquest can't benefit from that.

[Madhiggins]

i like the kraken, he's got a huge threat range and doesn't need any specific caster to get it and his faction supports him really well since cryx is throwing around so many debuffs that the kraken is practically the most damaging colossal out of them all. even the conquest underneath karchev is dealing less damage than a kraken plus full debuffs from pDenegrha plus Dark Shroud. as for Hyperion, he's got the most hp in the game and he's got the strongest range gun in the game and throw in a ret mechanic then he's only one less pow than the conquest.

[John of Arc]

i like the kraken, he's got a huge threat range and doesn't need any specific caster to get it and his faction supports him really well since cryx is throwing around so many debuffs that the kraken is practically the most damaging colossal out of them all. even the conquest underneath karchev is dealing less damage than a kraken plus full debuffs from pDenegrha plus Dark Shroud. as for Hyperion, he's got the most hp in the game and he's got the strongest range gun in the game and throw in a ret mechanic then he's only one less pow than the conquest.

I agree with everything you've just said, though it should be noted that Conquest has nearly the same health as Hyperion but one more armor. I still don't understand why Conquest is worse than them, by a large margin.

[Sinsation]

Even the conquest underneath karchev is dealing less damage than a kraken plus full debuffs from pDenegrha plus Dark Shroud.

Could be mistaken, but you're comparing 5 pow 25 attacks to 5 boosted pow 22 attacks. In that case, Kraken would lose, and that requires pDeneghra's feat. So even in a matchup stacked against conquest, he loses.

[Madhiggins]

maybe the thing that makes the conquest look bad vs the kraken and hyperion is the fact that the other two fill roles that their factions were lacking while the conquest is so similar to our pre existing options that there's no much point in taking him. the kraken has the most armor of any cryx jack and out of the box huge threat range with no need of caster support, and hyperion was almost perfectly designed to help ret with one of their biggest problems, fighting eLylyth. Hyperion is super similar to Conquest, and the two would be tied if not for the fact that hyperion's main gun is so much stronger than the conquest's plus it's aoe 5 instead of 4. when i see the conquest, i just feel like the points would be better spent buying a Behemoth and two mortars. heck, you'd even get more fire power out of that deal and about the same pow in melee.

[Madhiggins]

Could be mistaken, but you're comparing 5 pow 25 attacks to 5 boosted pow 22 attacks. In that case, Kraken would lose, and that requires pDeneghra's feat. So even in a matchup stacked against conquest, he loses.

he final kraken tally is feat(-2 arm), parasite(-3 arm), dark shroud(-2 army) and then any meat tokens the kraken has. so they get equal dps output before you start counting in the kraken's special rules.

[Madhiggins]

double (or triple!) post.

[John of Arc]

maybe the thing that makes the conquest look bad vs the kraken and hyperion is the fact that the other two fill roles that their factions were lacking while the conquest is so similar to our pre existing options that there's no much point in taking him. the kraken has the most armor of any cryx jack and out of the box huge threat range with no need of caster support, and hyperion was almost perfectly designed to help ret with one of their biggest problems, fighting eLylyth. Hyperion is super similar to Conquest, and the two would be tied if not for the fact that hyperion's main gun is so much stronger than the conquest's plus it's aoe 5 instead of 4. when i see the conquest, i just feel like the points would be better spent buying a Behemoth and two mortars. heck, you'd even get more fire power out of that deal and about the same pow in melee.

Except for the part where Conquest's gun has 5" longer range, a critical that isn't as situational (since POW 9 blast damage kills most small based models in the first place, and devastation can affect all non-huge based models) and better secondary guns, not to mention the ability to use Creeping Barrage. People can cry all they want about Creeping Barrage, but it's still better than having no covering fire type ability, and I'd rather clear infantry with POW 12 AoE 3's than trying to hit them directly with POW 12's. Did I mention Conquest has better fists?

[Madhiggins]

the conquest does have better range on the gun, but ret has snipe floating around in it so i was never too turned off by it's range. and you may think creeping barrage is the cat's meow, but maybe just in my meta blast 6's would do so little that it's a next to worthless ability. heck, there are only so many things in the game that care about blast 6 in the first place. and yes, the conquest has a better pow fist, but only by one(when counting the ret mechanic). and best part of this, Hyperion and Conquest don't even compare to the good colossals such as Menoth, Cygnar, and Mercs.

[Sinsation]

he final kraken tally is feat(-2 arm), parasite(-3 arm), dark shroud(-2 army) and then any meat tokens the kraken has. so they get equal dps output before you start counting in the kraken's special rules.

You've forgotten to add aiyana and holt for Khador then, and also ragman. If you're going to go back and change it to add in meat tokens, then lets give the conquest something too. As it stands, even with feat, parasite, full focus, and dark shroud, kraken does less than conquest does from just unearthly rage and focus, and less than conquest under pButcher and Feat, moreso pButcher, fury, and feat. Kraken has the advantage in speed and range though, definitely.

[Madhiggins]

i was just using in faction buffs that people almost always take for cryx and the reason i was counting meat tokens is because it's an actual ability kraken has. as it stands, with the debuffs i mentioned and conquest under karchev, they both do pow 25. if you add in mercs then conquest starts to go up(but then so do all the other colossals).

[Sinsation]

If you say so, but Deneghra's feat isn't taken very often in a list without Deneghra 1. Typically you're looking at parasite or curse of shadows, and dark shroud, shifting it by a few, same with Karchev being non-typical.
Did you know that under Deneghra 1's feat, crippling grasp, and boomhowler's call, Conquest is a MAT 2 pow 18? And he's still 18 points. The stormwall can place a pod with an auto-hitting electrical attack that disrupts after charging from 15" away with all boosted melee attacks under Kraye.

[Tyr852]

To be fair most Colossi against SW don't really compare well so at this point it's crying over spilled milk as it won't change at least for a while.

If we are using feats , wouldn't esorcha's pretty much rattle most things I mean with those fists you are hitting on average of what 18 damage per swing on arm 19 , even on SW (assuming AS) you are hitting at dice x 2 which is enough to box it. Her bond also works well as even at mat 2 next turn he's going to literally sweep anything with in 2" off the board.

[Trihnicus]

How awesome would he be if our various movement shenanigans worked on him though? /droool The one place he's scarier than anyone else is in melee... if only it were just a bit easier to get him there he'd clearly be a behemoth or Beast class model.

[x3tsniper]

Don't know judicator's base pow/mat, but throw in choir and ignite. Oo You can bet you will see that bastard under eFeora all the time with a bond.

The big issue with Karchev, is that you have just dropped all your focus into essentially one model when cast unearthly rage with Conquest. Leaving your caster even 10" behind Conquest with no focus still doesn't sound very appetizing. Even conquest has a threat of 9".
I personally think Karchev is probably one our worst casters for Conquest.

[Madhiggins]

karchev isn't ideal for conquest, but he makes the conquest the most dangerous(since against most things you actually really need the boost to all hit rolls too). i know people have tossed around the idea already, but pVlad really is the best caster for the Conquest. the feat means Conquest actually out threats most things, and the spell Signs and Portents buffs the conquest's ranged AND melee attacks. heck, underneath Signs the conquest's secondary blast damage rolls go from 6 to 8 which is an amazing amount of difference.

[Gandalfrockman]

Don't know judicator's base pow/mat, but throw in choir and ignite. Oo You can bet you will see that bastard under eFeora all the time with a bond.

The big issue with Karchev, is that you have just dropped all your focus into essentially one model when cast unearthly rage with Conquest. Leaving your caster even 10" behind Conquest with no focus still doesn't sound very appetizing. Even conquest has a threat of 9".
I personally think Karchev is probably one our worst casters for Conquest.

The way Im seeing this is as part of a modified karchev brick. Its Probably not optimal. But it doesnt seem like a completely trash Idea Either.

As far as BEST caster for conquest,I'm guessing its either pVlad, or harkevich. But I think we will need to see more battle reports and stuff before it becomes clear cut.

[Sinsation]

Karchev just seems like a bad choice for conquest, because while you're getting unearthly rage for great bonuses (and the occasional save of magic weapons), that damage buff could be really unnecessary and overkill. Plus conquest gets little from sidearms or tow, and the feat strips down to just a free power attack/charge. He's also got little in the way of ranged help, although eruption could maybe be used for charge protection? Seems iffy.

Butcher 1 on the other hand, you're getting boosted attacks through full throttle, but also a free charge, albeit no magic weapon or boosted damage. The feat does help ranged, and fury should make colossal slap-fests go well.

Butcher 2... the rage drives don't seem worth it. Maybe cannon shots to trigger feat? If butcher was killing stuff in melee the drives could be nice, same with ravager. Could be

[Sinsation]

Double post. Half the time it doesn't seem to respond to posts/edits, just sits still, others, this. Bah

[epyonliu]

Sadly but I do agree that Karchev seems like one of the worst casters to take Conquest as most of the synergies are lost because of the colossal rules... A jack caster that does not favour super heavy warjack.

I tried eSorscha with Conquest today against Nemo3 and Stormwall, plus Thunderhead and Stormclad. It was much better than my previous games and the survivability of Conquest made me very happy. It is really not easy to take down a colossal, not while both players know how to protect them. The game ended in a big grind in the middle of the table. Conquest vs. Stormwall and Thunderhead and a lancer. After 2 rounds, Conquest finished them all but has only one box left and was then wrecked by some random stuff (maybe Nemo3). Before the grind, Stormwall and Thunderhead took out 75% of my WGDS and 50% of my IFP reinforcements, in one turn. And soon after under Nemo3's feat, the cygnar force almost cleared all my infantry, leaving with perhaps one demo corp... That was really an impressive demonstration of how effective Stormwall is against Khador infantry. In this game, due to the fact that Conquest was not wrecked by the combined force of half crippled Stormwall and the lancer, the bond from eSorscha froze the lancer It helped Conquest to wreck him later because otherwise MAT 6 was really not good enough against DEF 13... But I felt very disappointed with the below average MAT through out the game... I did miss a very good chance to assassinate Nemo with Feat and conquest's gun though.

All in all, Conquest gained some credit back and I'm looking forward to try him with pVlad next

[Ender_Melchior]

...Plus conquest gets little from sidearms...

10 Large Based Models fit around Conquests Base. Karchev is parked right behind it, with the other 9 heavy Warjacks around it. Cast Sidearms.

All of a sudden, you have a defense 17 Conquest.Seems to me that he will do just fine under Karchev =P

[scout's honor]

10 Large Based Models fit around Conquests Base. Karchev is parked right behind it, with the other 9 heavy Warjacks around it. Cast Sidearms.

All of a sudden, you have a defense 17 Conquest.Seems to me that he will do just fine under Karchev =P

That's a 75 point list, and only if you take juggernauts or a mix of berserkers and kodiaks. I really hope that kind of setup is not what the Konquest is balanced towards.

[Ender_Melchior]

That's a 75 point list, and only if you take juggernauts or a mix of berserkers and kodiaks. I really hope that kind of setup is not what the Konquest is balanced towards.

I'd just use Berserkers. And just imagine the look on your opponents face when you set that on the table. And then they have to shoot a defense 17 Conquest, with the alternative being defense 14 Berserkers up front.

And the worst part is? I'm pretty sure it could work wonders.

[scout's honor]

And just imagine the look on your opponents face when you set that on the table.

I imagine that would largely depend on what he gets to set on the table with his 75 points.

[epyonliu]

I think the problem is, what are you going to do in your next turn? The whole brick will be very difficult to maneuver due to the huge base size of Conquest. You have to move away half of the berserkers that were B2B with Conquest in order to let Conquest move in a certain direction. And once you send out the berserkers to attack something the brick immediately breaks... It will be a great view seeing Khador red occupying the center of the table, but I don't think it will cause much problems to prepared opponent

[Sinsation]

Could work wonders, certainly. Could being huge there.
Then again, you could go up against a pNemo list with an arc node. He could shoot conquest with voltaic snare. Seeing that would be hilarious.