After a few games with Colossals

[ArchonXVI]

When we transitioned from Mk I to Mk II, it was believed that a new age of jack-heavy armies had been ushered in. People played with two, three, four heavy jacks in their 35 point armies, and often remarked on how pleased they were with jack effectiveness.

I would suggest getting more playtime in with colossals before rendering judgment quite yet. Changes such as these take time to sink in.

[Azuresun]

2) By the same token of "we haven't fully explored other abusive combos that Gargossals may offer" we likewise haven't fully explored options for dealing with them. It will absolutely require an adjustment period, but I'll put in my two cents and encourage people to look first for tools and solutions rather than jumping to the conclusion that Gargossals are "teh b0rken" (which is not what I'm accusing anyone in this thread of. Indeed, I think there has been some excellent discussion thus far!).

I think we're seeing two common assumptions of the game (especially Warmachine) being challenged with Colossals. First, that warjacks make up a minority of most armies, so countering them usually isn't that high a priority compared to countering Mage Hunters, IF Kayazy or whatever. Also, that anything can be killed with an alpha strike (usually by charging weaponmaster infantry).

[Crate123]

Actually in a tournament this won't help you much to be honest. Imagine a Khaodr player with one Colossal list and one with the Deathstar and Nyss. Tell me please, which of your 2 lists are you gonna pick, since both players reveal their casters at the same time?

The Colossals force you to build a list able to deal with them, however I'm afraid that many factions lack the tools to make this anticolossal list also an all-comers list. Untill now, you were able to go for a scenario win if you faced models you couldn't destroy. You had slams, pushes, throws, spells like Gallows, Telekinesis etc to deal with stuff you couldn't kill so even a jack wall was not necessarily an auto loss for casters who have no damage buffs or armor debuffs. Half of an entire faction (Gatormen) had this playstyle. I dare say it was even entertaining, challenging and rewarding. But now it's gone.
Please keep in mind that destroying a Colossal is much, much harder than calculating the damage numbers for an equal amount of points of troops/jacks beating on one. Even a 2 Colossal list at 50 points has around 17-18 points left to spend on 1, Mechaniks 2, one solid unit or 2 cheap jammers 3, 1-2 support pieces. All these will hinder you in reaching the colossal, killing your d00ds and trying to break up your combos a la Sword Knights with a reach jack by focusing on the jack for example.

Your listbuilding will have to factor in all of the above and thus I am asking how many of your faction's casters can comfortably do this?

Oh I agree that its going to be tough and depending on the faction I choose it becomes even harder but at least the 2 lists give you a sliver of hope that you would not get with just 1.
Im only a little worried about colossals in general but Im much more worried about the stormwall, its just so much better than the others and its stupidly effective with the haleys.

[Sheer_Falacy]

This entire thread is just about stormwall. When people have brought up others it's been hand waved away or responded to with incorrect information (kraken doesn't get 4'' sweep). They're all easier to kill except galleon with bart (unless you have upkeep removal), and they're all more vulnerable to weapon master infantry except maybe judicator.

If you truly think colossals are the issue, and not stormwall, use some of the other ones in your examples of horrific matchups. People are mentioning Khador using something that's not kayazi/wg but they don't mention that Khador players seem to hate conquest.

[bouncymischa]

Actually in a tournament this won't help you much to be honest. Imagine a Khaodr player with one Colossal list and one with the Deathstar and Nyss. Tell me please, which of your 2 lists are you gonna pick, since both players reveal their casters at the same time?

The Colossals force you to build a list able to deal with them, however I'm afraid that many factions lack the tools to make this anticolossal list also an all-comers list. Untill now, you were able to go for a scenario win if you faced models you couldn't destroy. You had slams, pushes, throws, spells like Gallows, Telekinesis etc to deal with stuff you couldn't kill so even a jack wall was not necessarily an auto loss for casters who have no damage buffs or armor debuffs. Half of an entire faction (Gatormen) had this playstyle. I dare say it was even entertaining, challenging and rewarding. But now it's gone.
Please keep in mind that destroying a Colossal is much, much harder than calculating the damage numbers for an equal amount of points of troops/jacks beating on one. Even a 2 Colossal list at 50 points has around 17-18 points left to spend on 1, Mechaniks 2, one solid unit or 2 cheap jammers 3, 1-2 support pieces. All these will hinder you in reaching the colossal, killing your d00ds and trying to break up your combos a la Sword Knights with a reach jack by focusing on the jack for example.

Your listbuilding will have to factor in all of the above and thus I am asking how many of your faction's casters can comfortably do this?

Personally, if I was in that situation and playing my Menoth, I'd probably choose my Severius1 "Incendiarius" list (35 points) because it packs 2 Vanquishers and a Reckoner -- with Choir support and Eye of Menoth, I'd feel comfortable taking on at least one Conquest (and possibly 2), while with the capacity to belch out 3 AOE 4 templates per turn and packing Rhoven and Pals to help out the Reckoner it could deal with an infantry spam list. If I was using my Retribution, I'd be tempted to use my Ravyn "Laser Light Show" list (at least, once I got a Hyperion for it) (50 points), because it can spam out 3 AOE 4-5s per turn from 14+" away, while carrying Hyperion and two Manticores to try and deal with any Colossals.

Probably not the best matchups, but I've always tried to build my lists to be able to deal with both heavy armor and infantrymachine. Heck, I'd feel confident taking my Vindictus list, an Ossyan list, or even a Madhammer list against those kinds of matchups too.

It can be killed in one go, particularly with some factions, but not every faction will have good answers.

I'm still not quite sure why people are so caught up in the issue of destroying a Colossal in one turn. Heck, one of the reasons people are so thrilled to have them now is because, unlike most warjacks, they can't easily be destroyed in one-turn. Sure, if you don't destroy it in one turn it's going to keep on functioning at near full power, but if I'm doing 40 points damage to it in a turn with 10 points of my army, which it then destroys while mechaniks heal up 10 points or so (probably above average for repairs), and then I deal another 40 points to it with 10 more points of my army, I've destroyed 20 points of my opponent's army while only sacrificing 10 points of my own.

Admittedly, 40 points damage is a bit on the high end for most warjacks, but 10 points of weaponmasters can do it. Although it's all theorymachine, so I have yet to see how it plays out on the tabletop, but I feel fairly confident I can deal with most Colossals that way.

To adress an earlier question, why is there so much talk about the Stormwall, I guess there are two main points. He is probably the biggest improvement for it's faction among the Colossals and secondly he is allready at a table near you. Many people don't like proxying for some unknown reason.

I'm not really convinced that this is the reason. Stormwall is basically a superlative, top-of-the-line, arguably broken example of a Colossal. He's packed with more special rules than any other Colossal. He is the only Colossal that actually benefits the rest of his army (through the storm pods), and is currently the only one that has an effective defense mechanism in the Covering Fire templates.

I won't deny that Stormwall will be a significant issue in competitive play, and once we've got more concrete data about his impact on the metagame there may well be some "nerf Stormwall" threads showing up. But, honestly, none of the other Colossals -- or even the Mountain King -- pose nearly as much of an issue as Stormwall does. Galleon and Judicator are arguably second and third place, but they languish a fair distance behind Stormwall in competitiveness, and I don't have any real concerns about being able to take them down.

I can't help but feel that most of the complaints raised about Colossals in general are actually simply complaints about Stormwall being overgeneralized to the whole class of models...

(( EDIT: I also apologize if my comments seem not-so-clearly thought out, as it's the end of the day and I'm exhausted... X3 ))

[PG_Asa]

I guess I'm just not scared

[lastspartacus]

Can't dispel Bart's buff.

[West996]

This entire thread is just about stormwall. When people have brought up others it's been hand waved away or responded to with incorrect information (kraken doesn't get 4'' sweep). They're all easier to kill except galleon with bart (unless you have upkeep removal), and they're all more vulnerable to weapon master infantry except maybe judicator.

If you truly think colossals are the issue, and not stormwall, use some of the other ones in your examples of horrific matchups. People are mentioning Khador using something that's not kayazi/wg but they don't mention that Khador players seem to hate conquest.

What about the concern as to the list building dynamic in order to counter Colossals, and if said list will still be viable to fight non-colossi lists? That is just one topic not specifically concerning the Storm Wall.

Also, do you have anything constructive to say about the Storm Wall concerns or did you just come to this thread to start pointing out what the main themes are in it. Anyone actually participating constructively to this thread does not need such a service.

As to you demand as to how you think we should contribute to this thread further, I suggest you contribute yourself before deciding on the direction our discussion should go.


---

I will admit that most of my specific concerns are about the Stormwall itself and not Colossals in general. The reason I have not separated this fact is because I have not done a whole lot of research and do not have all the information needed to fully comment on the other Colossi.

If it truly is a separate issue then I do apologize for making this thread more about the StormWall then Colossi in general. To my defense though that is not strictly off-topic.

If the only problem here really is the Storm Wall and more specifically two StormWalls together, 'The perfect Storm.' Then it is less of an issue as it is a very specific case. I do still think that it needs to be addressed though because it will effect the competitive scene.

[Sheer_Falacy]

Can't dispel Bart's buff.

Sorry I was unclear - I meant if you have upkeep removal stormwall is the easiest to kill in terms of armor and boxes.

And you can at least dispel spiny growth.


And I think most lists that can fight jacks can fight colossals... Except for stormwall. So it doesn't particularly bend the meta. I objected to a thread about the power of colossals that was instead mostly about the power of a single example.

[Mavwick]

Your listbuilding will have to factor in all of the above and thus I am asking how many of your faction's casters can comfortably do this?

It's not about how many can handle the job, but which ones you bring to the tournament. With no extrapolation, my Circle and Retribution lists will remain the same against potential matchups like that. If you're already not prepared for that kind of raw damage output or infantry, you need to reexamine at least one of your two lists; if not both.
Without going into too much detail, here's two overviews of lists I'd play if there was a tournament tomorrow or six months from now with Colossals out for everyone:
Circle
1-eKaya: She puts out a demoralizing amount of pain on a colossal list. I should be able to scrap one with two alpha-striking warbeasts that quickly retreat to Kaya's side on her feat turn. This same list can't be shot by WG or Nyss thanks to Stealth and fares well against them in melee with DEF14 Warpwolves. (DEF16 with the right spell!)
2-Barely need a list 2. Grayle? I've liked him in tourneys lately. Storm Rager on Circle's solos tends to be enough against all but the highest-DEF infantry problems and Blessed from a Pureblood helps that last bit. It works well enough that his builds are also 3-heavy-builds at 50 points which have no problem dispatching a Colossal.

Retribution
1. Ossyan. Pew. Removing two Heavies from the board isn't a problem on his feat turn. Colossals don't change that gameplan, except the sucker punch I usually get by dragging more in with Battle Mages. Stormfall Archers provide some anti-infantry and there's plenty of infantry to take on infantry-heavy lists in Ret.
2. Vyros: Always my solid SR choice in Retribution. Alpha-strike Heavies and board control. Admittedly this tends to stymie high-DEF infantry and hope AOEs or Phoenix fire can blow them away. Speed makes it killer in SR scenarios and it's backed up by Vyros' potent endgame.

A well-rounded tournament meta has room for Colossals, but I don't see them changing enough. Again, I don't think they're bad by any means but they're not as game-changing as some are estimating. I'll admit some factions seem to fare worse than others (especially if you include Gators) but Retribution is far from the best faction and still has answers. I usually tell newer players to prepare to beat Cryx and beast-heavy lists without going too far out of your way and you'll make tournament lists. The "beast-heavy" part covers a Colossal matchup.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I do understand what you are saying here. It's just that I can't help but wonder how often the converse will be true. How many times is a double Stormwall going to be put down and the player realize they just can't win a scenario becuase they have to spread out to much, or that with all that direct fire they can't affect stealth heavy armies until they are on top of them? I'm not trying to discount your point, I just think that people may still be getting used to the Colossals limitations.

Also, as a multi-faction player, I find it exciting that there is debate on how to deal with something from Cygnar. It gives the Legion forums something to talk about and has the Cygnar forum focused on the positive. As for Mercs, we're so happy with the Galleon we don't care what other people got.

But double Stormwall does just fine in split scenarios, and can deal with stealth infantry in two extremely solid ways. About the only thing it can't deal with is eLylyth honestly.

I think it really is primarily Stormwall. Galleon(s) with Bart is also an issue, but likely to be more rare than Stormwall(s) with most Cygnar casters.

The real issue is that Stormwall will generally be the most survivable one, the best able to deal with infantry, strong enough in melee to do the job there and with some solid guns on the way in. I don't want to cry broken yet, especially as Trolls are actually one of the factions that can still deal with Stormwall even through all that, especially ironic as my local Cygnar player says he has the toughest time against trolls. That said, Stormwall is hard to deal with in a way that none of the other colossals are, or even come close to. Heck, it is the only one that can still do some cool stuff while blind - namely drop out a stormpod and do some auto pow 10s - which is especially rough for Gorman. It can even spend focus to boost damage on them and potentially disrupt a jack.

The Galleons with Bart will be very difficult to deal with, even though you can strip Spiny Growth - especially when I realized some of my thoughts on it wouldn't actually work with Barts feat in the way - but even that seems easier to deal with than Stormwall.

In any case, I would throw the 2 Galleon Bart list with Wrong Eye and a Bull Snapper as meta warping and hard to deal with - maybe not quite as bad as Stormwall but pretty harsh.

None of the others even come close to being as hard to deal with as of yet.

[The Happy Anarchist]

1-eKaya: She puts out a demoralizing amount of pain on a colossal list. I should be able to scrap one with two alpha-striking warbeasts that quickly retreat to Kaya's side on her feat turn. This same list can't be shot by WG or Nyss thanks to Stealth and fares well against them in melee with DEF14 Warpwolves. (DEF16 with the right spell!)
2-Barely need a list 2. Grayle? I've liked him in tourneys lately. Storm Rager on Circle's solos tends to be enough against all but the highest-DEF infantry problems and Blessed from a Pureblood helps that last bit. It works well enough that his builds are also 3-heavy-builds at 50 points which have no problem dispatching a Colossal.

Retribution
1. Ossyan. Pew. Removing two Heavies from the board isn't a problem on his feat turn. Colossals don't change that gameplan, except the sucker punch I usually get by dragging more in with Battle Mages. Stormfall Archers provide some anti-infantry and there's plenty of infantry to take on infantry-heavy lists in Ret.
2. Vyros: Always my solid SR choice in Retribution. Alpha-strike Heavies and board control. Admittedly this tends to stymie high-DEF infantry and hope AOEs or Phoenix fire can blow them away. Speed makes it killer in SR scenarios and it's backed up by Vyros' potent endgame.

A well-rounded tournament meta has room for Colossals, but I don't see them changing enough. Again, I don't think they're bad by any means but they're not as game-changing as some are estimating. I'll admit some factions seem to fare worse than others (especially if you include Gators) but Retribution is far from the best faction and still has answers. I usually tell newer players to prepare to beat Cryx and beast-heavy lists without going too far out of your way and you'll make tournament lists. The "beast-heavy" part covers a Colossal matchup.

What about a Colossal that can't be charged for your circle list? Say, pHaley, the most dangerous caster for them? That makes it much more difficult. Even the Laris run in and assassinate isn't actually a realistic option when you add 14" for Laris to run vs 16" control area for Temporal Barrier. You should also note that walking into melee is not likely to do much good - especially as the Stormwall's can focus fire and take a beast off from 10" away, outside the walk in range. Or charge 10" for that matter. You may be able to teleport one in with the shifting stones, and it may work out that you can wax one of them with one teleporting Pow 22 Stalker - or Pow 20 with Blessed. 5 dice +1 hits does 40 damage - the Stormwall is still standing. Better hope they didn't bring the two Stormwall list...

Ossyan is very good at removing two standard heavies from the board. I have never had two ARM 22+ heavies removed by Ossyan - but then I play Trolls and don't get MHA gang banged. I still doubt very much that Ossyan can drop two ARM 22/19 vs the MHA Stormwalls off the table on feat turn.

I do think that 90% of the time dealing with Colossals is something that can be done - but the real question is can it be done against Stormwall/Galleon in the harshest match ups. Also, who do you pick if the other caster is say eHaley who causes some serious issues for some of your best options for dealing with Stormwall? Remember - you don't get to find out which list they picked when you pick your caster. Having a single list that can deal with Colossals is not necessarily going to help you.

[bouncymischa]

Ossyan is very good at removing two standard heavies from the board. I have never had two ARM 22+ heavies removed by Ossyan - but then I play Trolls and don't get MHA gang banged. I still doubt very much that Ossyan can drop two ARM 22/19 vs the MHA Stormwalls off the table on feat turn.

Probably not, but if he can drop one while taking minimal losses, he's eliminated a good third or more of his opponent's list. What's a lone Stormwall going to do against an Ossyan list, particularly if Hypnos is there keeping it Void Locked? Ossyan can hang back and pick the Stormwall apart at his relative leisure, as long as he can keep ahead of the mechaniks (and his MHSF can always be picking off mechaniks instead). I'd also guess that Eiryss will be hanging around to get rid of any nasty upkeeps.

I'm still not sure what the whole preoccupation is with killing Colossals in one turn. Getting hung up on killing two in a single turn is even sillier!

I do think that 90% of the time dealing with Colossals is something that can be done - but the real question is can it be done against Stormwall/Galleon in the harshest match ups. Also, who do you pick if the other caster is say eHaley who causes some serious issues for some of your best options for dealing with Stormwall? Remember - you don't get to find out which list they picked when you pick your caster. Having a single list that can deal with Colossals is not necessarily going to help you.

So far, the discussion seems to really not be about Colossals in general, or even Colossals with most warcasters, but a couple of very specific matchups. I suppose, in the end, time will show if Haley1+Colossals is really meta-warping, but at least the culprits will be obvious if any errata comes down the pipe to fix the problem.

As for Bart, given the fact that until Colossals he was the bottom of the barrel for Mercenary warcasters, the poor guy needs a break. X3

[Azuresun]

What about a Colossal that can't be charged for your circle list? Say, pHaley, the most dangerous caster for them? That makes it much more difficult. Even the Laris run in and assassinate isn't actually a realistic option when you add 14" for Laris to run vs 16" control area for Temporal Barrier. You should also note that walking into melee is not likely to do much good - especially as the Stormwall's can focus fire and take a beast off from 10" away, outside the walk in range.

How are they focusing fire against a stealth battlegroup again?

I'm still not sure what the whole preoccupation is with killing Colossals in one turn. Getting hung up on killing two in a single turn is even sillier!

One of my hopes for Colossals would be that they'd play down the "Get the charge, you can kill anything." trend in the game, and it looks like they've delivered. People will adjust over time.

[Ranhothep]

People are offering their examples of Colossal destruction without taking into acount an actual tabletop situation. Certainly 2 overboosted Circle heavies can take out a Stormwall and a full 50pt Ossyan army on feat turn as well when everything goes according to your plan. The annoying detail is however, your opponent has a say in that matter. Not only the Stormwalls are fighting back the rest of the Cygnar army is, which as has been pointed out, even in a 2 Stormwall list is still not negligible. Cygnar, along with Legion probably has the least trouble with stealthed models, so the Wolves can get shot up and will have to deal with a jamming unit in front of the big guy first. And all this while the Stormwalls press forward to claim objectives.
My experience from fighting colossals and not just theorymachining them, is that it's quite difficult to concentrate a bigger part of your army on the Colossal. I'll take the Judicator as an example, in order to avoid the Stormwall. Just a disclaimer first: it's entirely appropriate to be concerned and discuss specific caster-colossal combos since that's what you gonna see, once it becomes clear where the best synergies lie. So this was an eFeora list meaning the Colossal has an 11" threat range and possibly 4 focus. If you wanna try infantry, you have to spread them out due to 6 aoes, even if the unit survives in some form of fight-worthy shape it won't be able to engage entirely, since it had to be spread out. Heavy infantry doesn't outthreat it and due to the continuous fire effect, even shieldwalled infantry isn't safe. The fire effect can come also from the regular flame throwers, even without eFeora, which have a respectable RAT of 7. Many heavies also don't outthreat it and those who do can take a beating from the rockets, on boosted to hit rolls it has a fair chance to hit even Warpwolves. On top of all this, there is still enough of an army in addition to screen the Judicator against fast threats. If you wanna shoot it can either shoot you back - with the choir and aiming it can hit most heavies (2 pow 16 rockets are nothing to sneeze at) or it will just come clobber you, because chances are, if you pack enough shooting punch to hurt it, you might be lacking in the melee department.
Considering all this while still maintaining some solid presence on objectives (since a Colossal can easily switch it's attention to exploit a weakness in your line if you have just a solo on a flag for example) it becomes very hard for a regular list to combat the big guys

[Azuresun]

Considering all this while still maintaining some solid presence on objectives (since a Colossal can easily switch it's attention to exploit a weakness in your line if you have just a solo on a flag for example) it becomes very hard for a regular list to combat the big guys

That threat range assumes it doesn't get blocked by one guy who makes a tough roll, or the greatest enemy of colossals, the dreaded waist-high brick wall!

Also, define "regular list".

[The Happy Anarchist]

How are they focusing fire against a stealth battlegroup again?

One of my hopes for Colossals would be that they'd play down the "Get the charge, you can kill anything." trend in the game, and it looks like they've delivered. People will adjust over time.

Did you read the post you quoted? See how I said that your beasts are going to have to walk into melee because of Temporal Barrier, and that they have a 10" walk and shoot? Last time I checked, 5" walk + 5" range for stealth = 10" - if I wasn't accounting for stealth I would be saying 20" walk and shoot. Depending on the eKaya list though - there is usually things for them to shoot that don't have stealth like Skinwalkers in the tier or the Wilder.

Also keep in mind, it isn't just the Pow 15s you have to worry about. 2d3 Pow 12s can actually put some serious hurt into Def 12 temporal barrier'd warpwolves.

[WarlockFiretopMountain]

Change is scary but important. If the same old lists always won, people would put WM/H away. This has to be a dynamic game, otherwise it will get played out.

If I knew how to put this in my signature line, I would.

[computertrucker]

I am perfectly happy with the fact that colossals will make an impact on the competitive scene. My hat is off to PP. For creating something new that can give issues to so many tournament template lists we see time and again.

The colossals bring a breath of fresh air to the game. If your old spam list that seemed broken in the past due to it winning so often is getting the bleep kicked out of it by a list containing 1 or even better 2 colossals, and your mad and feel like complaining or whining about it, then let me direct you to...hmmm let's see what page was it again? Oh yes that's right. PAGE 5

[bouncymischa]

My experience from fighting colossals and not just theorymachining them, is that it's quite difficult to concentrate a bigger part of your army on the Colossal. I'll take the Judicator as an example, in order to avoid the Stormwall. Just a disclaimer first: it's entirely appropriate to be concerned and discuss specific caster-colossal combos since that's what you gonna see, once it becomes clear where the best synergies lie. So this was an eFeora list meaning the Colossal has an 11" threat range and possibly 4 focus. If you wanna try infantry, you have to spread them out due to 6 aoes, even if the unit survives in some form of fight-worthy shape it won't be able to engage entirely, since it had to be spread out. Heavy infantry doesn't outthreat it and due to the continuous fire effect, even shieldwalled infantry isn't safe. The fire effect can come also from the regular flame throwers, even without eFeora, which have a respectable RAT of 7. Many heavies also don't outthreat it and those who do can take a beating from the rockets, on boosted to hit rolls it has a fair chance to hit even Warpwolves. On top of all this, there is still enough of an army in addition to screen the Judicator against fast threats. If you wanna shoot it can either shoot you back - with the choir and aiming it can hit most heavies (2 pow 16 rockets are nothing to sneeze at) or it will just come clobber you, because chances are, if you pack enough shooting punch to hurt it, you might be lacking in the melee department.
Considering all this while still maintaining some solid presence on objectives (since a Colossal can easily switch it's attention to exploit a weakness in your line if you have just a solo on a flag for example) it becomes very hard for a regular list to combat the big guys

I'll offer a few comments on this...

a) I'm always leery of using specific combos to draw general conclusions -- for one thing, every combo is a product of its separate parts, and using a combo to draw a conclusion about any specific part of that combo neglects the role the other components play. For example, in the Haley1+Stormwall combo, is it Stormwall or Haley's Temporal Barrier that is the larger culprit? If you want to draw a conclusion about a particular component, you really need to analyze its performance across a wide variety of situations, as opposed to single ones.

b) I'm also still not entirely sure how the Judicator's rockets are that much scarier than a normal Redeemer. Admittedly, you get 2 extra AOEs and it's pretty much focus-free, which may be enough of a swing to affect things. On the other hand, my past experiences with Feora and a Redeemer have seen the AOEs often deviate into empty space, or simply hit one target at a time. The Judicator's rocket pods may actually be more effective at clustering the blasts to catch more infantry -- I haven't had the chance to proxy it myself -- but I still can't help but wonder if people aren't overstating the impact of its templates.

c) I know most players in the Menoth forums consider the flamethrowers largely an afterthought -- given my own experience as an unabashed fan of Flameguard Cleansers, they are a really short-ranged weapon. I suppose the Judicator could lumber up the field to bring them to bear, but I have a feeling they're going to end up a more "Oh, I'm engaged, I'll blast some infantry" kind of weapon.

d) Even with the Choir and Aiming bonus it's a RAT 5, and I've encountered enough DEF 12 heavies in the game to be unwilling to trust a 60% chance to hit. I've done some good damage to enemy warjacks with Redeemers in the past, but it's not something I'd consider reliable. X3

e) Finally, I do somewhat agree that a regular list will struggle, but it also depends on how one defines a "regular list". My lists are typically designed to do what they can to deal with both armor and infantry -- I could list a number of Protectorate, Retribution, and Mercenary lists that I designed to be able to deal with both heavy armor and light infantry, although they remain as-yet untested against a Colossal in actual play. Still, I'd be willing to take a shot at it with them. Of course, a list with two Colossals, or a Colossal and other heavy stuff is always going to be an extreme list, and require more specialized lists to deal with, just like a Mortenebra or Karchev list that packs nothing but warjacks...

I am perfectly happy with the fact that colossals will make an impact on the competitive scene. My hat is off to PP. For creating something new that can give issues to so many tournament template lists we see time and again.

The colossals bring a breath of fresh air to the game. If your old spam list that seemed broken in the past due to it winning so often is getting the bleep kicked out of it by a list containing 1 or even better 2 colossals, and your mad and feel like complaining or whining about it, then let me direct you to...hmmm let's see what page was it again? Oh yes that's right. PAGE 5

Oh, Page 5, that bit of overdramatized ad-copy that always gets pulled out in an effort to stymie discussion and stifle varying points of view in an effort to enforce a mindless sense of conformity~ X3

It does always make me wonder... when people drag out Page 5 to stifle complaints about something they favor, have they ever complained about something else? Have those who go "Colossals are great! PAGE 5!" ever complained about Tartarus and Banes, or MHSF+UA, or gunlines like Lylyth2?

EDIT: Come to think of it, the tenor of these discussions reminds me a lot of the various threads that sprung up back in December when the character restrictions for Steamroller were pronounced, with a lot of people worried that it would reduce diversity in competitive lists, while other people were glad to see them and hopeful that there would be an increase in diversity. Of course, six months later I haven't seen any complaint threads about it, so presumably things worked out or people just learned to tolerate them.

It'll be interesting to see the state of the game in another six months...

[Azuresun]

Did you read the post you quoted? See how I said that your beasts are going to have to walk into melee because of Temporal Barrier, and that they have a 10" walk and shoot? Last time I checked, 5" walk + 5" range for stealth = 10" - if I wasn't accounting for stealth I would be saying 20" walk and shoot. Depending on the eKaya list though - there is usually things for them to shoot that don't have stealth like Skinwalkers in the tier or the Wilder.

Also keep in mind, it isn't just the Pow 15s you have to worry about. 2d3 Pow 12s can actually put some serious hurt into Def 12 temporal barrier'd warpwolves.

Making the fairly safe assumption that Haley is standing behind a Colossal, that's only 11" maximum of Temporal Barrier to cross, and a typical eKaya list can manage a charge from outside that easily enough.

Alternatively (and this is just for Circle) if the warcaster is standing right behind the Colossal, then that's something the Lord of the Feast can have fun with, or maybe bounce some Chain Lightnings off it.

[Drakor]

I have played against a stormwall a couple of times and have so far had no trouble killing it. I've killed one with terminus with absurd ease and another with some banes and withershadow members. Gorman is a colossals worst nightmare, he's a 2 point solo who easily takes them out of the game for one round.

pHayley while very solid has some truly horrible matchups, the worst probably being ravyn snipe feat go, but any phantom hunter or chain lightning will end her very quickly. Ossyan on feat turn with 2 units of stormfalls kills one on average dice, throw in mhsf and aiyanna and holt and they'll have no trouble killing one even outside of feat.

[VOLK]

And that's what Colossals do - they up the points level at which the game is "balanced". Meaning bigger armies and moving slowly away from the skirmish origins of the game.

I agree with this. The Colossals are less scary the bigger the game. We will see how this works at the 75-point level during the next GenCon.

Even the valid concern that Colossals may marginalize lists build around tricks/maneuvering simply due to how much pure beatstickery you need to include is mitigated by a larger point level. A balance may be reached where Colossals mow down infantry, infantry screen collossals and warjacks, and warjacks scrap Colossals. Battle Engines also become more attractive at high point-levels, where your caster runs out of resources to support more infantry or jacks.

[bouncymischa]

I also am somewhat concerned that this will eliminate many tricky lists simply due to how much pure beatstickery you need to include in your lists.

And so people who like beatstickery will be happier, and those who like tricky lists will be less so. Those who were unhappy become happy; those who were happy become unhappy.

Like sands through the hourglass, so pass the games of our lives~

[Ranhothep]

Yea, yea PAGE 5, keep on parroting. I bet PAGE 5 has been invoked also when people were concerned about eGaspy and the Molik Missile, what a shame those concerns prompted an errata.

Back on topic. A regular list would be one able to deal with a few heavy targets, has a way to clear some infantry and maybe a trick or two for scenario play. To demonstrate it better, let's assume an often seen Khador list. It features a jack or two, 2 infantry squads, a few solos and maybe a support/specialist squad. Let's assume your caster has a damage buff (spell or feat) which allows even your units to deal with heavy armor if necessary, otherwise you use them to allow your jacks to approach. While Khador jacks usually don't total enemy heavies in one turn, together with some infantry help they can cripple them to some extent, so as to survive the revenge. Against enemy infantry you use yours to either kill them, or stand in the way and go for scenarios yourself. A spriggan or Kayazy even have the tools to go for an assassination if the opportunity presents itself. I'd call this a regular allcomer list with a combined arms approach. Since buffed infantry was viable against heavy armor, such a list could pull off a win even against lists, considered extreme e.g. Mortenebra, Kharchev. Now, with Colossal lists being - rightly imo - described as extreme in this context, however quite common such "regular" lists might become extinct. I simply fear some casters will loose their viability in such a meta and that is a shame. Colossals require a certain set of tools from your opponent to be able to combat them effectively. Tools, that some casters simply don't have.

[West996]

Just as a side note I would like to point out that many of the solutions behind offered to combat the Storm Wall are hordes based. The significance of that is that you avoid one major tool the Storm Wall has and that is mass disruption.

Something else that the hordes players are not even taking into account is that charge lanes are easily blocked with those lightning pods.

I think that is part of the reason I am frustrated with the Storm Wall is that its value is not consistent. Some factions look at a double Storm Wall combo and can immediately come up with 2 or 3 solutions for it, other factions simply have to shrug their shoulders. These things create bad match ups out of entire factions, not just certain Warcasters and I don't think that should be a thing.

[bouncymischa]

Since buffed infantry was viable against heavy armor, such a list could pull off a win even against lists, considered extreme e.g. Mortenebra, Kharchev. Now, with Colossal lists being - rightly imo - described as extreme in this context, however quite common such "regular" lists might become extinct. I simply fear some casters will loose their viability in such a meta and that is a shame. Colossals require a certain set of tools from your opponent to be able to combat them effectively. Tools, that some casters simply don't have.

Hmmm, I suppose the question I have in response, then, is -- will the new meta simply define new "regular" lists? The old meta could pretty rightfully be described as "infantrymachine" -- infantry made warjacks largely redundant, because infantry could nearly always do whatever a warjack could do, whether it was defeating enemy infantry or armor. I know whenever I took a list that had more than two warjacks, such as my Severius1 list (two Vanquishers and a Reckoner) or my Kaelyssa list (Phoenix, Discordia, Skarath) that some of my opponents started to wonder how they'd deal with "so many heavies". Infantry was king, and thus dealing with infantry was always a higher priority than dealing with armor.

Now Colossals shift the meta and bring a new paradigm into play. I know your argument is pretty much that the pendulum may have swung too far, but it's ultimately a really hazy area where everyone has their own different preferences. I know that people who always wanted warjacks to actually have the durability and power to stand tall and take on an equal amount of infantry -- and win -- are happy with the advent of Colossals, and they're likely amongst those that argue that the meta will survive the shift.

Of course, the question of diversity is somewhat different from that, as that question depends on whether the number of list builds that become ineffective is compensated by the number of list builds that become more effective with the advent of Colossals. If the number of viable lists remain the same, and just the playstyle of the lists changes, then diversity is retained. If not -- if lists become forced to be cookie-cutter with a limited number of options -- then diversity suffers. Even then, the shift may be temporary. If lists become more limited because factions as a whole have fewer anti-armor than anti-infantry options (which is quite possible, due to the predominance of infantrymachine in the past few years) then future expansions may bring the tools to swing the pendulum back into play. The heyday of Colossals may well only last until the next expansion book, after all.

[Defenstrator]

You might be right if it was 'just' me. But it isn't, it's a much larger community than just me.

Is it? I'm always a bit suspicious of statements that claim "them" as support. "They" always seems to be this large group that agrees with the person making the statement but that at the same time is very hard to count. Since we're making nebulous claims I guess I'll say that "they" support me as well, and that there are more of "them" than support you. No, wait, that would just be me making stuff up the way you are. Instead I looked at the various forums and at a few other warmachine boards. So far I am not seeing a lot of cries of doom or how colossals are so unbeatable. Not to say they won't come, but for the most part "they" seems to mostly consist of people in this one thread.

As to the playtester discussion, I agree that they can miss things, and that it's hard to test such a variety of models. But what you suggested was not that. You wondered if all the factors weren't considered, as though they haven't been doing a huge amount of playtesting on these things. It was a statement that struck as having a fair amount of hubris. You haven't played with them, but you're wondering if they have done the work.

In general I'm much more likely to be influenced by specific refutations than by wholesale dismissal, as the former requires thought and dialogue, the latter is essentially the opposite.

What was there to refute? You said colossals are big and scary and will bend the meta. I agree. The rest of your argument is just conjecture. Like you we theorymachined that pHaley was going to be really good with Stormwall. But I can't tell you how good, or whether she's too good, becuase I haven't had or seen the games with her yet. We also thought pVlad might be pretty evil if he pops his feat first turn and has two Conquests run 16" up the board and park themsleves in the scenario zones. That supported by Signs & Portents also seems really good. But is it actually? Don't know, I haven't seen or played that game either.

And that was my issue. I see a lot of people worrying and questioning what the designers were thinking without any games to back it up. I'm more than happy to give stick to bad models or feel that a few offenders should be toned down, but that's after having games with them. Also, as Bouncymischa said

a) I'm always leery of using specific combos to draw general conclusions -- for one thing, every combo is a product of its separate parts, and using a combo to draw a conclusion about any specific part of that combo neglects the role the other components play. For example, in the Haley1+Stormwall combo, is it Stormwall or Haley's Temporal Barrier that is the larger culprit? If you want to draw a conclusion about a particular component, you really need to analyze its performance across a wide variety of situations, as opposed to single ones.

This is a sentiment I agree with. There are lots of units that are generally ok but happen to synergise very well with one specific combo. Is pHaley and the Stormwall the equivalent of Rahvyn's + MHSF, Snipe, Feat, win? Maybe, but I don't think anyone can say for certain yet becuase they haven't got the games in.

[West996]

Hmmm, I suppose the question I have in response, then, is -- will the new meta simply define new "regular" lists? The old meta could pretty rightfully be described as "infantrymachine" -- infantry made warjacks largely redundant, because infantry could nearly always do whatever a warjack could do, whether it was defeating enemy infantry or armor. I know whenever I took a list that had more than two warjacks, such as my Severius1 list (two Vanquishers and a Reckoner) or my Kaelyssa list (Phoenix, Discordia, Skarath) that some of my opponents started to wonder how they'd deal with "so many heavies". Infantry was king, and thus dealing with infantry was always a higher priority than dealing with armor.

Now Colossals shift the meta and bring a new paradigm into play. I know your argument is pretty much that the pendulum may have swung too far, but it's ultimately a really hazy area where everyone has their own different preferences. I know that people who always wanted warjacks to actually have the durability and power to stand tall and take on an equal amount of infantry -- and win -- are happy with the advent of Colossals, and they're likely amongst those that argue that the meta will survive the shift.

Of course, the question of diversity is somewhat different from that, as that question depends on whether the number of list builds that become ineffective is compensated by the number of list builds that become more effective with the advent of Colossals. If the number of viable lists remain the same, and just the playstyle of the lists changes, then diversity is retained. If not -- if lists become forced to be cookie-cutter with a limited number of options -- then diversity suffers. Even then, the shift may be temporary. If lists become more limited because factions as a whole have fewer anti-armor than anti-infantry options (which is quite possible, due to the predominance of infantrymachine in the past few years) then future expansions may bring the tools to swing the pendulum back into play. The heyday of Colossals may well only last until the next expansion book, after all.

Bravo,

Nicely put and it makes sense to me. Generally speaking if we are talking about the Colossal release as a whole this pretty much sums it up. It is still a 'wait and see' response but at this point that is all we really can do.

Now if there is a problem with any specific match ups, eg Double Storm Wall, then we will have to trust that PP with correct this.

Aside from that though, as far as Colossals as a whole are, I agree with the quoted poster.

[Chad]

I'm still not quite sure why people are so caught up in the issue of destroying a Colossal in one turn.

I suspect the reason is twofold -

First, when concerns over just how much more durable they are than their like points in jacks, I believe there has been at least some response of something akin to 'I've seen them go down in 1 turn'. Which, while certainly possible, is generally not likely.

The second reason (for me) comes down attrition vs. damage output. If I'm facing a colossal - in particular the ones that have a disturbingly good ranged damage output like the Stormwall or even arguably the Khador, I've got no easy way to reduce their potential output until they're entirely scrapped. In the mean time, I take a risk engaging them because they (generally) hit harder than their offsetting points in standard heavy jacks. Cygnar has inexpensive field mechanics 2/3 for a 4 or 6 model unit that can each make repairs, who just camp behind and out of LOS in relative safety as well as Strangewayes. Even the Khador repair unit is pretty decent. Conquest has 20 ARM and 62 boxes. Both on the approach and while I'm engaged, my forces are taking a beating and suffering damage output losses due to the attrition my models/units/jacks/beasts are taking. My army starts losing models and systems at a much faster rate, and any 'repairs' I attempt are spread over multiple models with mechanics that are much more exposed.

It almost seems like the answer to colossals is either colossals of your or very specific builds that can compensate, of which some factions can do better than others.

Now it's not all doom, I'm not actually in that category, my concerns are preliminary at best. I played my first game against a colossal last night. Conquest was a daunting threat the entire game. In some current Steamroller scenarios, his base is big enough to bridge between two objectives claiming one while defending another, and since all he needs is a sliver of his base in the objective, and it simply cannot be moved from that point without being utterly destroyed, which might be fine if it had 15, 25 or even 35 hit boxes. But 50+, seems a bit much.

You might be more right in that Stormwall is a specific problem, particularly with some of the caster options in Cygnar. It's definitely the most obvious example, but two Conquests with Vlad and S&P capable of lobbing two high POW crit devastation shots and 8 shots at a single target. RAT 4 offsets that, somewhat at least. Stormwall doesn't suffer such a low RAT.

Is it? I'm always a bit suspicious of statements that claim "them" as support.

You have only to read the other posters expressing concern. I would have thought this self evident since there are obviously more than just you and I discussing this. I'm really not inclined to have to quote provide for you, since it's something that is done with even just some scrolling through this thread alone. I've seen elements of this in other threads, and a few blips on other forums. I'm not attempting to speak for anyone else, nor is every concern exactly the same, but there is (from my own observations) at least some concern about balance and how it affects gameplay, listbuilding, tournaments, and how some factions will have to handle it. While I have focused much of what I've said on their 'durability' factor, there are also likely some specific caster combinations that may be unreasonably difficult to play against.

To be fair though, some of those already exist. Last night against an E3Vlad cavalry list, on a field with open terrain, I just had very few good options simply because of the caster I had chosen to play. In a sense, the way cavalry work affected the game similarly, the proof in that was that in MK2 they toned most of the 'tougher' cavalry down a bit so they weren't quite so hard to deal with. Colossals crank the durability dial way up, and I hope the affect on the game isn't too bad overall. I think though Stormwall needs some toning down regardless.

As to the playtester discussion, I agree that they can miss things, and that it's hard to test such a variety of models. But what you suggested was not that. You wondered if all the factors weren't considered, as though they haven't been doing a huge amount of playtesting on these things. It was a statement that struck as having a fair amount of hubris. You haven't played with them, but you're wondering if they have done the work.

Here again you make large assumptions about some kind of 'as if' in my statement. There is no 'as if'. Testing can only ever discover so much, why does a company like Microsoft issue security bug fixes despite years and million$ in development? Because development and testing is not the same as public production. Why does crowd sourcing solutions often result in more efficient and rapid development of solutions? Because it scales up quantity and variety.

Privateer press is not a big company, their internal playtesting can only reveal so much. Their volunteer playtesters are also limited in number. Add to that, communication problems, personal biases, production and print schedules (which limit available testing time), and countless other factors that might contribute (I can provide more if you want). Even if every one of them played 5 games a day 7 days a week, you still cannot replicate the systematic testing and perspectives that is the result of thousands or 10s of thousands of people looking at, thinking about, and playing those same things.

What I am asserting is that it's possible, far fetched as it may sound, that their product isn't perfect every time they put something new out, no matter how many years it's been in development. It isn't because I think they're bad at it (quite the opposite) but because there are certain realities that are inevitable when dealing with the sheer amount of complexity of this game. Your perception of my hubris aside, that's all I'm referring to.

What was there to refute? You said colossals are big and scary and will bend the meta. I agree. The rest of your argument is just conjecture.

Please refer to my statements about the damage dynamic, systems and columns, attrition and reduction of threat. There's more too. If you are genuinely interested in this dialogue, but you need it laid out it something simpler like a numbered list I'm more than willing to do that for you. Much of what I said applies to all the colossals, but I'm sure I could find specific combinations that are colossal/caster specific if I looked hard enough.

Like you we theorymachined that pHaley was going to be really good with Stormwall. But I can't tell you how good, or whether she's too good, becuase I haven't had or seen the games with her yet. We also thought pVlad might be pretty evil if he pops his feat first turn and has two Conquests run 16" up the board and park themsleves in the scenario zones. That supported by Signs & Portents also seems really good. But is it actually? Don't know, I haven't seen or played that game either.

I'm sure you've heard of heuristics. It applies here as well. It is valid, believe it or not, to apply experienced based knowledge and techniques to make educated guesses and to problem solve. While our knowledge will ultimately be more complete with gameplay, it is not the only gateway to valid thought or criticism, particularly since our actual gameplay is so limited at the moment. Note also that gameplay experience is not without it's own problems - the human brain is more than a bit unreliable (often in the retelling or re-experiencing of memories), the random factor of dice (and how we remember good/bad rolling), local meta including faction makeup and skill level, types of games played, etc. all affect how these things are perceived.

If you, personally, don't value theorymachine, then wouldn't it make more sense for you refrain from the discussion yourself instead of coming here and, in essence, telling us to stop talking about it?

As to what Bouncymischa said, I generally agree with it. But not all the discussion has been framed around specific combos - certainly the PHaley dual Stormwall bit and the Broadsides dual colossal bit has been suggested, but they're low hanging fruit. Easy to spot. I suspect there are more. In any case, most of my concerns are particular to two factors both individually and in conjunction with each other - how durable they are while remaining operational, and the fact that they absolutely refute being displaced. It drastically affects tournament play. Does it break them? I don't know yet.

[RuneGrey]

I think part of the issue is that the Stormwall is finally tying together some of the synergy bits and pieces that Cygnar has had for a while but was lacking a linchpin model that would really hold everything together. Now, both of Cygnar's huge base releases have been good - this may well have been on purpose, with an eye towards improving their overall standing in the game's meta. Certainly from what I've seen Cygnar has not been a very highly placing faction, and I think that PP may have taken the excuse of their being the most inventive of the factions to give them a bit of a leg up.

The question is, will this change take them to the top of the game, suddenly unseating Cryx as the most complained about faction? I think it's too early to tell. But what the Stormwall does offer is an appeal to Cygnar's two big strengths - the ability to solidly buff the defense and survivability of models, and a strong ranged presence that's not really seen in many other factions. For so long now the idea of scrapping a key model in 1 turn has been so far forward in the mindset of the meta that something that changes that equation is seem as a real threat. The Colossals in general will be game changing pieces - I've already seen some people in my local shop planning on using 2 or 3 melee heavy lists to deal with mine when they might have run just 1 warjack before.

Given that I love this game for it's giant robots and stompy monsters, I can't complain about the change personally.

[Baenre]

Stormwall seems rough but as a Circle player i welcome a challenge on the table and perhaps the use of some different models to approach the new meta. My only real gripe with the model is the Auto hitting part. I am a firm believer in rolls for everything and that auto hitting attacks have no place in the game. It feels more like a cheat to me and not in the spirit of the game where any roll can be good or bad.

Time will really tell though as to whether these things will change anything in game or just be another fad for some factions and useless to others.

[Soulblighter]

The double StormWall is just the most obvious example right now of some things that may not have been fully explored in testing. It doesn't mean that is going to be the only thing that is going to cause people problems with the Colossal release.

Yeah I dont think it was fully explored. Two Stormwalls with Haley is completely broken. Both get arcane shield and its very difficult to damage them in melee since none of your infantry units can charge and all of your warjacks are constantly disrupted. You cant even cast spells on them either because of Vortex spear.

[Tyr852]

Yeah I dont think it was fully explored. Two Stormwalls with Haley is completely broken. Both get arcane shield and its very difficult to damage them in melee since none of your infantry units can charge and all of your warjacks are constantly disrupted. You cant even cast spells on them either because of Vortex spear.

Given how fast the community came up with haley + 2 stormwall combo I can't see PP missing it (but who knows they might have , they are only human) as for how bad it will be , I can't see Hordes players being overly put out by them which is a solid part of the people out there, most factions have someway of dealing with them and while I have no idea what % play Cygar you have to take that in to account and lower it again as not everyone will run that combo ..so unless everyone goes and drops 300 on it, you aren't looking at the next apocalypse .

[Soulblighter]

Given how fast the community came up with haley + 2 stormwall combo I can't see PP missing it

Well apparently they did miss it, because its horribly broken at 35 points. It's probably beatable at 50 points if you build a list specifically to counter it. I do agree that Colossals should've had a restriction that prevented them from being used in games below 50 points.

[jlav]

Well apparently they did miss it, because its horribly broken at 35 points. It's probably beatable at 50 points if you build a list specifically to counter it. I do agree that Colossals should've had a restriction that prevented them from being used in games below 50 points.

So Let's say she has a squire, and that gives her a 16" radius to her control. If she's standing behind the colossal, you're trying to tell me you can't charge 11" to get to the colossal? It's not broken, and as has already been mentioned, there are bad matchups for her. So you don't like to play against the list? Thank you, now you feel like Cygnar players have felt for the past couple of years. Cygnar as a faction has bad matchups, that the stormwall only slightly mitigates. Give it some time people, and wait until the models and book are actually released. What's happening is that people are being challenged, instead of getting futilistic, get creative and change your tactics.

That said I will agree that a 15 point game with Darius or eNemo and a stormwall is a serious problem... Very tough matchup... for anyone...

[Crate123]

So Let's say she has a squire, and that gives her a 16" radius to her control. If she's standing behind the colossal, you're trying to tell me you can't charge 11" to get to the colossal? It's not broken, and as has already been mentioned, there are bad matchups for her. So you don't like to play against the list? Thank you, now you feel like Cygnar players have felt for the past couple of years. Cygnar as a faction has bad matchups, that the stormwall only slightly mitigates. Give it some time people, and wait until the models and book are actually released. What's happening is that people are being challenged, instead of getting futilistic, get creative and change your tactics.

That said I will agree that a 15 point game with Darius or eNemo and a stormwall is a serious problem... Very tough matchup... for anyone...

So you have to plan ahead so that on your turn you are 16.5 away from the stormwall. Now it either runs up ahead so haley can charge it in the butt and cast TB and catch you (so you cant get to it at all) or it will move up and give you 2 pow 15s (probably boosted since only heavy stuff is a problem due to the covering fire plates) or it will just stay in place so you cant reach it all.
Its easy peasy dealing with stormwall+pHaley right ?
Some factions have it harder than others, Im not too worried about my Legion army but Im quite worried for my Cryx army. Ofcourse my Cygnar army likes it.

[Baenre]

So you have to plan ahead so that on your turn you are 16.5 away from the stormwall. Now it either runs up ahead so haley can charge it in the butt and cast TB and catch you (so you cant get to it at all) or it will move up and give you 2 pow 15s (probably boosted since only heavy stuff is a problem due to the covering fire plates) or it will just stay in place so you cant reach it all.
Its easy peasy dealing with stormwall+pHaley right ?
Some factions have it harder than others, Im not too worried about my Legion army but Im quite worried for my Cryx army. Ofcourse my Cygnar army likes it.

They are going to have one he'll of a time with that when they play hordes players with even a regular amount of beasts.

[ScottEBJJ]

Well apparently they did miss it, because its horribly broken at 35 points. It's probably beatable at 50 points if you build a list specifically to counter it. I do agree that Colossals should've had a restriction that prevented them from being used in games below 50 points.

Well, sir, please post your battle reports testing such a list. The community deserves to see how broken such a list really is.

[West996]

Well, sir, please post your battle reports testing such a list. The community deserves to see how broken such a list really is.

The player you are taunting clearly is struggling to come up with solutions for such a list. Your sarcasm however, indicates you are confident such a list posses no problems for you. Maybe you would consider contributing to this thread and sharing your wisdom, or posting a battle report of you own..