Veteraans plase help me!
I enjoy fielding units with a bad rep. I've heard people say dont bring sentry stones and that encourages me to do just that. I only play friendly games so winning with these peices is very rewarding and there is little pressure to win every game as long as I can surprise people and be somewhat effective. I already play a full unit of reeves with UA and hunter + war wolves and have had some hilarious eye openers for people.
So the question is what units have the worst reputation in the meta? p.s. I currently only have mohsar
Last edited by jhon; 06-20-2012 at 06:06 AM.
Reason: spelling and p.s.
Destroyer of Worlds
Ummm so you want us to tell you what is the worst stuff we can think of because you are determined to win with it? Well you have a good start with Reeves. They are expensive and unreliable. The Sentry Stone isn't actually bad but it is very niche. Bad and niche aren't really the same thing. Take a bunch of Argii I guess. That will earn you some serious respect if you can win with those.
There has been a thread on this fairly recently:
I'd say just play Mohsar's Theme Force at Tier 4. That's a pretty bad list: containing poor units (Reeves + Sentry Stones), with bad Tier requirements (2 units of Druids are expensive and unnecessary, and Wold Stalkers have little synergy with Mohsar).
Alternatively, Grayle, Morvahna and Cassius all have Theme Forces that are pretty challenging (read: bad). If you can play these lists at Tier 4 with any level of consistent success, then you have truly mastered the game! You will notice that Reeves feature in most of these lists and the Sentry Stone appears in half of them. You are right to single these units out as Circle's weakest options. Reeves are just overcosted, and their UA offers very little for the points. The Sentry Stone is hampered by the fact that it has to spend Fury to do absolutely anything, a poor control range, and the fact that the Mannkins cannot activate independently or on the turn they are placed in play.
I regard Tharn Ravagers as being amongst the worst heat infantry options out there: they don't seem to hit as consistently hard as some other Faction's options (Weapon Master > Heart Eater in many situations, particularly vs Cryx), and have relatively poor survivability.
Many of Circle's light Warbeasts are pretty poor for their points cost, in my opinion: Argus, Winter Argus, Woldwatcher. The Shadowhorn Satyr is also pretty poor for a heavy. It does cost just 7 points though, so you could argue that it is costed accordingly.
One of the key points to remember though is that none of the above are universally bad, it's just that their selection is more situational. The Argus brings a useful animus if your army includes the LotF, a Feral and Ghetorix, for example. Reeves are pretty good with pKaya's Tier bonuses. Sentry Stones and Mannikins are pretty cool with pBaldur and are definitely worth bringing (and required!) in his Theme Force. A Shadowhorn with eKaya is an excellent gambit piece. Woldwatchers are decent with either Baldur (particularly eBaldur's Tier). The Winter Argus brings an ARM buff which Grayle craves etc.....
Last edited by mercury; 06-20-2012 at 07:04 AM.
Tharn Ravagers have a pretty bad rep. Also, in my local Meta, I don't tend to see much Shadowhorn or Gnarlhorne love. Althought it isn't out already, people are already disapointed from the winter argus (or so I've read). Oh, and you could always play with pKaya.
Kudos for challenging preconceptions and trying something new.
I'd argue that pKaya is fine up to a certain points level. She is near-broken at 10-15 points, good at 25-points and poor at 50-points plus. The problem is that she doesn't support infantry at all, and has a playstyle that is reliant on not being cornered. As game size increases, so does the need to include infantry (that she cannot support) in your own army, and the numbers of infantry (that can potentially corner her) increase in your opponent's army.
Destroyer of Worlds
You can play an army that consists of a grab bag of inferior units that have no synergy with each other or your warlock. All that happens is that you lose, and you lose all rights to complain about losing.
In our meta the Sentry Stones, Reeves, Skinwalkers, and most of the minion options are bad for Circle. That said, I suggest you swap out your Reeves + UA and three war wolves for full Nyss Hunters and a unit of Wold Stalkers to get an appreciation for why Reeves are not so great. Especially since you're using Mohsar, who has no faction only abilities that would cause you to not use the Nyss, or replace Reeves with full Bloodtrackers + Nuala and five point of other stuff.
There is a point to Sentry Stones and SkinWalkers. They are an entry requirement for two of the best theme lists in either Hordes or Warmachine. You need a single Sentry Stone unit for pBaldur's theme list, and you need a single unit of SkinWalkers for eKaya's theme. They get to start the game further up board in those themes, so they're a bit better.
Last edited by ringsnake; 06-20-2012 at 08:02 AM.
I am sorry. Perhaps bad is a wrong choice of words. I recently posted a t4 mohsar list and the main advice was to drop the theme. Challenging and niche are not a problem, synergy I'm all for; what I want to avoid is a cookie-cutter-list of power options. I want my growth of the game and knowledge of tactics/strategy to win; not the list of the most recent tourny champion. good for them but Im not a copy cat.
Last edited by jhon; 06-20-2012 at 04:21 PM.
Reason: gramar and spelling
I'm not really 100% sure that I am understanding you. So you want niche ways to make the poorer pieces work, but retain list synergy rather than just assemble a list made up of the worst pieces?
If that's the case, and you have Mohsar, then I suggest you try a Fury manipulation list that I was playing around with a few months back. The idea is to use the Feral's animus (blasphemy!), Sentry Stones, Saxon Orrik and Mohsar's Feat to mess with your opponent's Fury levels. You will have to target your opponent's own Fury control pieces (e.g. Shepherds, Forsaken) early in the game if this is going to work. Perhaps make them a Prey target for the Blood Trackers. In case you hadn't guessed already, this list is awful against Warmachine:
- Wold Warden
- Feral Warpwolf
- Warpwolf Stalker
Sentry Stone and Mannikins
6 Blood Trackers
As I alluded to above, you can do similar things for other 'poor' options:
pBaldur Theme Force with 2x Sentry Stones
pKaya Theme Force with units of Reeves (I would still only take 6-man units though, and leave the UA at home!)
Using the Argus's animus to support Ghetorix, Feral Warpwolves and the Lord Of The Feast
Take Satyrs with eKaya: use a DEF17 Shadowhorn (with Forced Evolution) as a gambit piece, tempting an early trade which will swing in your favour if your opponent's charge attacks miss (due to reversal)
Playing less favoured models well. That sounds cool to me. Good luck.
Mercury's advice above sounds fun and sound.
One I heard of before was going with several Argus (is the plural of Argus, Argus or Argi?) with Kaya. it was so far off the meta it was effective and fun.
I quite like sentry stones and still use them often. These can be great fun against hordes if you keep stealing fury (plus a wolf for its animus). Being annoying can draw more attention thdoes not compare with other factions.
Interested in what you are thinking of trying.
Last edited by ironchicken; 06-21-2012 at 03:43 AM.
That is the kind of thing I was looking for thank you! Odd pieces with an unexpected strategy. Denial, manipulation, and a mix of units that are under-appreciated but can be used with synergy. Perfect. Thank you mercury.
Using some of the pieces listed and what I've got:
Woldwyrd for spell denial and witch hunter
Pureblood animus blessed and magical, assissination run
Feral fury manipulation PB support
Druids+ua and black clad for spell denial, flank options, utility
sentry stones x2 fury minuplation
Shifting stones for movement fun
reeves for distances CRA , PB animas maybe?
Orik (or if points are off wolf calvary)
50 points salt reduces enemy shooting options, magic is shut down, and wide flanking ability thins the bricking ability and sets up scenarioes, multiple assasinations options.
No cheese cries. =D