Killing Time: Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight

[PG_BloodRath]

Greetings legionnaires! ?Men talk of killing time, while time quietly kills them?. Today we are taking back the seconds in this article of Killing Time! This issue we are reviewing one my all time favorite warlocks, Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight. This article was requested by Rhonx79. He writes ??I have a tourney coming up soon and I want to use him (thagrosh1). I would be so grateful for tips on how to run him with the most bang!? Your wish is my command! I shall do the leg work and get this article started but it?s up to our amazing community to fill in the rest.


?Often times my initial write up will contain little if no information that you couldn?t get from looking at the card and coming to your own conclusions. However it is the contributions of the amazing legionnaires in our community that make each article a wealth of useful insight.?

**Important note! ** If you double post for whatever reason, please go back and fill that space with useful information or additional questions. Wasting space is lame. Good Forum etiquette should be to fill in the blanks. Thanks for listing to my rant. Now let?s get to the meat of the article.

?The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.?
- Sun Tzu-

Around my metta many of my friends have started referring to Thagrosh 1 as ?Old Freebie? it?s actually a play on Futurama (that?s what they call Earths flag) but they are referring to the free warbeast and animus that you get when playing Thagrosh1. This issue we are going to break down the basics of Old Freebie as we do with every warlock.

? Feat

? Abilities

? Spells

[PG_BloodRath]

DARK REVIVAL: ?Return one destroyed warbeast that was part of Thagrosh's battle group to play. Place it anywhere within 3? of him. The warbeast forfeits its action this turn.?

I love this feat so much. Regardless of the point level I often find Dark Revival useful. At the lower point brackets 15 & 25 DR is extremely unbalanced. Bringing back 2/3 or more of your points as a serious attrition swing in your favor. It is because of this feat that Thagrosh makes a top tier warlock in mangled metal. In the 35 point bracket Thagrosh?s feat becomes more balanced. I find this is typically the point bracket that strategy becomes an important part of DR. Reviving a beast is great however there is more to gain that can further make this point swing devastating to your opponent. If you can set up a trade where the opponent takes down your Carnivean (ideally with Spiny growth on it) in exchange for one of their heavies then you have essentially doubled this point exchange. Reviving an 11pt carnivean AND killing another heavy let?s say costing 9pts you have turned his feat into a 20pt exchange in your favor.


?There are two intangible benefits to Dark Revival that I find just as useful as the feat itself. Thagrosh?s feat allows you to play a warbeast extremely aggressive. Typically you try to protect your big investment until it can reliably force a big point exchange to keep the game even. Because of Revival I can fast ball my carnivean at my enemy and wreak havoc on their lines before getting mauled. Tactics like this often throw your opponent off as they begin to second guess taking the time to kill your heavy. On more than one occasion I have caught my opponent thinking out loud ?if I kill it now you?re just going to revive him and if I send my heavy over there to kill it it?s not going to be over here where I want it? it puts your opponent between a rock and a hard place which is right where you want them. There have been many games where I have never had to use my feat because my opponent avoided killing my heavies. That?s what I call a Win-Win. The second thing I want to talk about is scenario play. Thagrosh1 excels at scenarios that require you to destroy an objective. Sending a carnivean at the objective to get it destroyed then reviving it so that its back in position with your army is one of the best ways to make use of this feat in steam roller. It keeps your enemy occupied for a turn then you get to ?yo-yo? your heavy back into your army to hold the zone or destroy a second objective.?

[PG_BloodRath]

THE PACKAGE: Old Freebie has one of the best ability packages you could ask for in a legion warlock. Terror gives a small layer of protection to Thagrosh against non fearless troops. Any chance I have to force my opponent to roll dice I do so. Death shroud is one of the best command range Abilities you could ask for in an attrition warlock. Inflicting -2 strength on the enemy without spending any fury or casting a spell is fantastic. Because it?s not a spell it can?t be purified or spell warded away.


?One of the best tips I can give a new player is to write a reminder or put down a token to represent dark shroud. I cannot tell you how many games I forgot about DS because my mind was elsewhere. Because of this I am a huge fan of the MK2 token sets from privateer press. You can write a reminder on one for dark shroud and have it follow your warcaster around. Putting a token down will also allow your opponent to take dark shroud into account in their math. This way you have another person to keep dark shroud in mind and you will be able to take benefit from it as much as possible.?

Athanc is another ability that doesn?t come into play often and get overlooked many games. This ability came into play recently when playing against Strum and Drang, Their feat reduces all your warbeast fury to 1. Because of Athanc I was able to top off my fury and take some of the edge off of Psychic apocalypse. This is just one of many instances that this ability will save you from cutting for 1. Attuned Spirit is Thagrosh?s signature ability because it is one that comes into play every turn. Granting a free animus in a faction full of great animuses is silly good. It is most often used to cast spiny growth but can be useful to cast any of our 2 cost animus. The Nephilim Soldiers animus is a handy one to throw around and can crank out a little extra damage from one of your heavies. Eruption of ash is the last ability on his card. It can be one of the most overlooked ability?s by players that favor to play him father back in fear of him dyeing. EOA rewards you with a cloud of fiery goodness dealing a pow 12 to enemy models when it is placed and does the same to enemy?s who enter or end in it after placement. Cloud effects are a very powerful tool to offer Thagrosh concealment and can block LOS to him.

[PG_BloodRath]

SPELLING DOOM! The Prophet has a decent spell list. The first one of them, bad blood is a spell that prevents a warbeast from being healed, having damage transferred to it and causes damage to the warlock for each point of fury they leech off the warbeast. Bad blood only works against hoards. However it is a fantastic spell to use against that half of the game. A well timed Bad Blood can set up the assassination run by preventing transfers to their last warbeast. An early bad blood can really punish warlocks like Baldur2 and Kromak whose abilities require them to damage them self. I also see this being particularly effective against a Gargantuan that wants to be healed and would severely punish a warlock for leaching 3-5 fury every turn. Once you get the chance to Cast BB on a warbeast, take it. A warbeast with bad blood and no spirit is pretty much useless. Bad Blood is also important against Trolls, as it prevents healing which means it stops snacking from triggering. When playing a game against legion it’s particularly potent against Typhon.


“I often try to squeeze at least one spell martyr into every list with him if I even think I will be playing hoards. Getting a turn 1 or turn 2 Bad Blood has been a game changer for me so many times and I find it practically potent against trolls as many of their warlocks rely on slurping up fury from that one big heavy they have lurking behind their lines. Its also a great way to punish warbeast who have those amazing 2 cost animuses like the Troll Axer’s Rush. If forces the warlock to take some damage if the warbeast is going to help spam it or they have to waste their own fury casting it which is an exchange that is just as good to me.”

Thagrosh’s next spell Draconic blessing grants +2 str and terror to a model/unit. Anyone can benefit from this spell. it can push a carnivean or scythen over the top on damage output. It can make an angelius armor pierce even harder, or it can harden the most pillow fisted of heavies like the Ravagor and Proteus to have a respectable damage output. The nice thing about this spell is it can also be thrown on a unit. Legionnaires hitting harder is always a bonus, Swordsmen hitting really hard is nice, it can even bring hex hunters up to a respectable PS 12. Thagrosh’s third spell Fog of War is a solid buff to help protect your army from shooting as you advance. Be aware it also affects the enemy as well so if you plan to use it and still shoot be sure the shooters ignore concealment via eyeless sight, hunter, ect. Next let’s look at Mutagenesis. This is a tricky spell but it solid and not to be overlooked. Mutagenisis when cast from Thagrosh can allows you to place him wherever the enemy model destroyed was standing. You can try to sneak behind enemy lines for an unexpected assassination or you can use the spell to try to RFP important models if you get a chance to land it on a model that might be brought back. This can be a useful tool when facing Asphixious2 because models RFP cannot be resurrected by his feat. Several games I have used it to kill an enemy solo on a flank and teleport to somewhere out of position for a counter attack. The best targets for Mutagenisis when going for an assassination are typically warcaster/warlock attachments. They tend to kite very close to their warlock even when not necessary. They are not typically difficult to kill and can zip you right next to the un expecting enemy. Finally we come to his last spell Obliteration. It’s a decent Nuke spell at pow 15 AOE 4 and can help to force an opponent to unbrick or eat boosted obliterations. Its not a spell you will cast every game but some games it can be that last bomb to finish off a warcaster.

[PG_BloodRath]

Thank you all for every bit of amazing feedback you have given me. It always warms my blighted heart when I receive a PM from someone who was able to take something away from the threads or has an idea for a new KT. Please take a minute and Kill Time with me. Tell me about you experience with Old Freebie. Together lets open up his chest and see the Athanc for our self.


“Thagrosh, the prophet of Everblight can be a great warlock to learn the faction with if just starting out. I often recommend him to new players looking to expand the battle box. But don’t get the wrong idea. He is still challenging to play even for seasoned veterans and can continue to challenge you every game you slam him on the table. if you haven’t played him I would highly recommend you give him a go.”

Below are links I find useful when doing research on Thagrosh 1

This link will take you to Chain-Attacks battle report on Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight
http://www.chain-attack.com/2012/01/...s-vs-thagrosh/

This link will take you to Mind tricks #2 at Muse on Minis
http://museonminis.com/mind-tricks-2/

this link will take you to Hand cannon online. It’s a comparison of Kallus and Thagrosh 1
http://handcannononline.com/blog/201...012-part-viii/

Wet your posting appetite with

THE MENU
• How many beasts do you run with Thagrosh1?
• What’s your favorite unit to field with him?
• Do you bring him to steam rollers often?
• What’s your favorite beast to bring back with the feat?
• What’s your method for remembering all of his built in abilities?
• Do you have any ideas for Future Killing Times?

[Booger]

Great write up. I always find myself playing the models you feature in my next few games.

If I am not mistaken though Thag's feat places a beast and since Gargantuans can not be placed it will not work on them.

I like to use his feat late in the game to allow Thag to play more aggressively. Assuming Carny is dead you can play Thag close to the action without having to worry so much about leaving your screening model/unit behind. Charge out and get a better spell assassination angle or to smash face with Rapture. If you fail and find yourself out of position you can summon back your Carny between you and the threat. It is basically a screen-on-demand.

I second the swordsmen with Draconic Blessing. Not that they necessarily have trouble dealing with infantry but having terror spread around the field is just another thing the opponent has to deal with. The extra str just makes them better at their job: dealing with heavies.

Also I would love a KT on Anyssa Ryvaal. I am always stuck with what to prey to start the game.

[PG_BloodRath]

That may be the case and we wont know until the release. If that is so il come back and edit. However I'm firmly in the camp that since the angel Is not in play until after the feat resolves the rules weren't in effect until after the place effect

[Episkopos]

I love Thagrosh. He was my first caster outside of the battlebox and an excellent (and very forgiving) learning tool. The more you grow in experience, the more he grows with you.

As a playstyle evolves, Thagrosh always has the versatility to follow it.

[Neutralyze]

I run a balanced pthags list. 3 heavies, no lights or lessers, striders with UA, legionnaires full, spawning vessel, BFS, Sheperd and spell martyr

[PG_BloodRath]

@neut
What list do you run at 35pts? I always have trouble finding a balance I like at 35pts

[Neutralyze]

Three army heavies, legionnaire full, pot and Sheperd

[MeniteTom]

How do you feel about Swordsmen instead of Legionnaires and BFS?

[Neutralyze]

Bf helps the beasts with defense debuff, magical attacks for incorporeal as well

[PG_BloodRath]

At 50 the bfs become an auto include for me with tags 1 I like swordsmen with him as well but they dont jam as well.

[PG_Pszito]

The Great Korune was my first love in Legion. His ways are many and mighty. I played him like a fiend at the turning of mkII, given all his wonderful tricks and free-offs. Being a different flavor than most Legion casters he brought a game that many did not expect from Legion.

Few quick pointers for people diving into pThags:
- Dark Revival only prevents the beast preforming his combat action. You can still advance, use your animus, and any other relevant abilities. I particularly favor popping back an Angelius for this reason, 3" place, 7" advance, and REPULSION!
- Mutagenesis is a may ability for the replacement effect. Thus you can use it to 'snipe' out/finish off models that you don't actually want to replace.
- You need to be a certain distance from enemy models that you burst with Rapture if you don't want to end up in the cloud effect (ie: to block LoS). For small base models it's about an inch (just shy actually but play it safe), for mediums it's about 3/4" and larges you have to be just out of .5" melee (so in general if you're making claw attacks you will end up in the cloud when killing it with Rapture).
- Death Shroud is command, not control range. A common mistake.
- Charging to purely get extra movement out of him is a common practice. This is a different practice than most of our other casters but pretty normal with spd 4-5 casters. With a 14" control it isn't necessary but if you want him in the action turn 2-3 you better plan on it.
- Be wary of any ability that removes models from play; take down, snacking, rfp-spells, etc etc. They shut down his feat. A common mistake vs trolls is to put up spiny growth on your carny, then an untouched troll heavy comes in, wrecks him, takes a few points along the way, then snacks him out of existence.
- Be careful not to over-extend vs casters with purification. With multiple upkeeps and animi tossed around like hot cakes you can lose a lot of effort by one spell.
- Remember that for the purposes of many abilities, animi cast my a warlock also count as spells (even if cast for free).
-Transferring to lower-armored beasts is the magic formula. Thagrosh sits at arm 18 with Spiny Growth, so shrugging hits off to lesser/lights means your opponent is losing the attrition war.

Tactics-wise I do enjoy a good carnivean or Typhon with pThags to start. Beyond that I am a huge fan of taking an Angelius and a Seraph. With tenacity and Death Shroud these heavies become very challenging targets to take down. Double serpentine large bases also help shield Thags from mega-shooty lists. Then you have movement manipulation, threat extension, and some form of shooty to deal with many problems (striders are a pretty fine solution too, Neut). Beyond that it's really a matter of what kind of beatsticks you want to womp your opponents with. Scythean(s) bring serious levels of hurt, Ravagores can pressure the board but fall shy when melee hits, and Proteus has his small bag of tricks (helped massively by Draconic Blessing).

I do enjoy pushing the terror angle with pThag. I've run his tier (not the best of sorts) many times and having to make 4-5 terror checks on the way in can be game-changing. The warmonger brick leaves something to be desired, however, and is easily stalled/shot/out-threated. There isn't much that's more fun than putting down 20 blighted ogrun tho... hehe.

I've pursued the Mutagenesis Assassination angle for some time now. The key components to maximize it's success are:

-Blackfrost Shard
-Farrow Bone Grinders
-Harrier/Spawning Vessel
-Seraph
-Succubus
-Possibly Bolt Thrower/Angelius

The idea being he get's free upkeep Draconic Blessing on himself, slipstream, craft Talisman, fake-charge a friendly model, charge success, between move/combat action he mutagenesis' the ideal target, boost as needed, place, free true strike, then swing with everything you've got. Vs Warmachine any non-focus camping caster can quickly be cut down with his auto-hitting pow 18, then ideally 3-4 more bought attacks (or 1-2 boosted). Vs Hordes you best limit their transfer capability or strike when they don't expect it (bad blood can be used in the mix if it means NO transfers). The threat range is ~24" depending on angles, you can push him for 1" per extra. Along the way of activating these models you have the Seraph, BFS, and what all else softening up targets (often to make mutagenesis more reliable) and moving them into position (Thunderbolt, Repulsion).

Sure, it's more of a last-ditch gamble than a viable assassination go-to... but most of the pieces needed I like to run with him anyway! BFS I highly recommend with him, especially 35+. The Grinders have some interesting synergy with Spawning vessel and his feat (use animus first then revive it). It's just food for thought.

Unit-wise I much favor Striders w/UA or (now) a full unit of Swordsmen w/UA. Striders help deal with potential problems and free up parking spaces for my heavies. Swordsmen help distract from the beasts by being an unavoidable problem; adding the the layers of attrition. They also hit hard, making every model you throw down able to punch armor. Once their armor's down, you are likely in a good spot sitting on spiny growthed beasts. With Farilor hitting the scene, Legionnaires just got a major bump in playability as the sole unit Thag's runs (playtesting ensues).

He's quite a hate-tank. Since he doesn't really 'combo-out' it's best to play him cautiously, but aggressively. Use his abilities to shut down your opponent when possible and focus on making efficient trades.

[MeniteTom]

Beast-wise, I like one of each Carnivean-chassis heavy: Carnivean, Scythean, Ravagore. Ravagore to give him some heavy range presence, Scythean for a frontline beater and Carnivean for SG.

[slinkdawg]

The carni chassis beasts give your opponent 3 crumy choices of what to kill first before you dark revival.

[Defenstrator]

What I like most about Thagrosh is his ability to run a varied list and his staying power. With him I generally take a mixed list with a few heavies and a decent amount of infantry as well. But his feat is what I have really grown to love about him. While not directly powerful I;ve come to think of it as a spoiler that lets him fight warcasters and warlocks that seem more powerful.

Generally you run into someone like eSkarre or eAsphyxious and they use their feat, if they can't assassinate you outright, to blow away some thing big and expensive and put you down on points. Thagrosh's feat acts like a big spoiler. They feat and kill something, you feat and it comes back, and while you aren't really ahead, you also aren't really behind. Then his attrition abilities come into play and you slowly grind them down for the win.

[PG_Saturated Phat]

Wouldent thags gain blood drinker while within the command range of a warchief? He fulfils the requirement of friendly blighted Ogrun.
Am I also correct in assuming he does not benefit from veteran leadership because thags is not a trooper?

I don't know when it will be useful, but it's there

[Neutralyze]

It could be useful. Thags would need to kill with his pimp hand to heal D3

[D.Sanchez]

The pimp hand is strong.

[PG_chra]

Wow. That was a wealth of knowledge, Psitzo. Bravo good sir, bravo.

I've recently taken to fielding pVayl and pThagrosh lately, just because I'm still in the learning process and both casters offer so many options in terms of beasts and play style. As most Legion players trend towards, I like playing beast heavy. But playing beast heavy hasn't always led me to playing the attrition game, where instead I can get out-maneuvered by superior infantry. Attrition was a style I never really learned with Legion with off the bat because I started with Saeryn.

This all changed with Thagrosh.

My most epic match was against a pSkarre list where after her feat she managed to kill a Scythean and I was able to feat it back and just demolish his infantry then protect him with cloud effects. It was quite amazing and one of my most memorable matches to date, where with most other casters I'd probably be dead on the ensuing turn. I don't have a lot to add due to my lack of experience with him, but I love Hex Hunters with him. The Hex Bolts can really put a hamper on other beast or jack-heavy lists, and Draconic Blessing is so good on them if but for the fact that they can move up and down the field so fast. I'll definitely have to try to BFS at 35pts, though. Always looking for a reason to run those guys.

[Warcaster Feiss]

A common mistake vs trolls is to put up spiny growth on your carny, then an untouched troll heavy comes in, wrecks him, takes a few points along the way, then snacks him out of existence.

That's a really useful tidbit, thanks for specifically pointing that out!

I've been playing a bunch with pThags lately as 1 of 2 Warlocks I've picked out (alongside eVayl) to get to grips with Legion.

As an alternative viewpoint to the commonly accepted 'core' battlegroup for pThags, I've not gotten a lot of mileage out of the Scythean with him, instead preferring Typhon. I found I was reluctant to throw the Scythean in as I wasn't able to safely cover him with Death Shround to make him harder to kill, Typhon has the same (compared to 2x initials + 1x Chain Attack of the Scythean) 3x P&S 17 initial attacks as well as being able to help the Ravagore and Carnivean pressure my opponent into overextending into my lines with boosted sprays.

He also covers one weakness I found with Carnivean/Ravagore/Scythean and that was being overrun by infantry. Being able to sit pretty with Death Shroud and Spiny Growth my heavies generally survive infantry charges, Typhon can then aim and start spraying down infantry models.

As an addition to the battlegroup of Carnivean / Ravagore / Typhon, I've found the Naga Nightlurker to be a really useful addition to the battlegroup. He shares a role I used to drop the Nephilim Bolt Thrower in for in some respects (Gorman hunting!) with a much more useful animus that can easily be spread around (due to Succubus' Spirit Tap and pThags' Attuned Spirit). It's a really useful animus to have when throwing a Draconic Blessing'ed 'beast into an enemy heavy that has an armour buff on it.

On the same note, I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and give another 'thumbs up' for the Blackfrost Shard with pThags, MAT 6/7 had made a habit of failing me when charging into DEF 13 Cryx heavies / DEF 14 Warpwolves etc. Being able to even the odds with an Ice Cage or two and a Kiss of Lyliss really does make it a sure thing. On a specific note, 2x Ice Cage and a Kiss of Lyliss actually makes the Ravagore a very dangerous 2nd line threat 'beast when Typhon and the Carnivean have both gone down (one of them twice!), and for that reason I'd highly recommend keeping the Blackfrost Shard reasonably back as late game pieces, they're too expensive and valuable to throw away on an opportune Ice Bolt etc.

[Neutralyze]

Harriers are my Gorman hunters

[Lord Xalys]

I've been playing pThags for the past few games and tourneys (one upcoming next Saturday), and I am loving him! I never leave home without a Carnivean and a Scythean, and I'm glueing a Ravagore together as we speak. The war of attrition that pThags can play is just so good with those Carni-chassis beasts and SG. I've also had fun with Gatormen btw: no SG, but Tenacity works, and Death Shroud and FoW combo very nicely with the GMP's natural abilities. I also added in a Witch Doctor to make them even more of an annoyance to get rid off.

Now, I'm toying with the idea to go Ogrun with pThags (don't have any Ogrun as of yet). Warmongers occupy roughly the same spot as the GMP the way I see it, although the Warmongers are more focussed on infantry elimination. The are affected by SG, but don't have Dirge of Mists or Unyielding. However, Warmongers do benefit from Draconic Blessing, which lets them crack more armour for less points. Nifty.

What I'm wondering about really, however, is pThags' potency with Warspears. The fact that their spears are Thrown and thus benefit from Draconic Blessing is terrific: chucking effective POW15 spears 16" from your starting position (Assault) seems boss. In melee they lose out a point of damage on the Warmongers, but can make it up with the second (Assault) attack at a consistent damage level. Then consider that Tenacity comboes nicely with Set Defense, and I'm starting to wonder if Warspears aren't a very good choice with pThags, maybe even before taking Warmongers.

Thoughts on pThags and Warspears anyone?

LX

[Neutralyze]

Warspears are decent with pthags. FOW is a detriment to their ranged attacks though

[Lord Xalys]

Warspears are decent with pthags. FOW is a detriment to their ranged attacks though

True. Personally I haven't found myself casting a lot of FoW, because I'm often up against stuff that ignores concealment and/or has a high enough RAT not to be bothered. I do admit that the latter is more of a detriment because of my use of low DEF warbeasts; I'm sure it's better with higher DEF infantry and beasts.

I suppose a War Chief is a decent investment (or freebie, in pThags' tier list) for Warspears as well, even as mitigation for if you need FoW on a turn the need to shoot stuff in pThags' CTRL?

LX

[Dicedog_dt]

So quick question about the timing of his feat. The feat says that the returned warbeast forfeits it's action this turn. What happens if the warbeast has already taken it's action before being revived?

As an example, a damaged warbeast activates in the beginning of the round and then is destroyed, maybe by something like a free strike or counter charge or maybe by friendly fire.

If Thagrosh activates after the beast is destroyed, can he feat to bring it back? If so can the revived beast move/force/cast animus or is it done since it already activated earlier in the turn?

[Neutralyze]

Similar to egaspys feat, if models are killed and brought back after taking their turn, they cannot activate again. It's double activating.

[Siphoned Core]

Quick question:

Can his feat be able to bring back a dead gargantuan?

[Neutralyze]

he cannot bring back a gargantuan.

[SneaklePete]

I'm a big fan of using the Nephilim Protector with pThags. Effective arm 20 and reach makes it an excellent runner up bodyguard when I don't quite want to splurg on another heavy. Draconic Blessing can bring it's beatstick up to a decent number when it needs to lay some hurt on a light or heavy infantry. Shield guard means FoW's upkeep gets a lower priority. All around, a very nice package for only 5 points.

Plus Nephilim deserve more board time.

[SneaklePete]

he cannot bring back a gargantuan.

Can you cite this? I was under the impression that despite use of the word "place", redeployment is a zebra of a different stripe. Otherwise, you would not be able to "place" your Guargantuan on the field in the first place.

[KBShiny]

PP has made the decision to errata the feat so it doesn't work. Neutralyze is right. Imagine 25 pt games with the feat if it did work.

[KBShiny]

I wanted to restart the conversation since my last post seemed to have killed the discussion here. What I want to discuss is why P. Thragrosh is not considered a top caster and what can be done to change that. Judging from the amount of information, people love playing him and he's a beast at lower pts. But once the points get higher, his feat isn't as important. My questions:

1) What is P. Thags greatest weakness? A lot of the time, once you figure out why something is weak, you can figure out how to make it a strength. Sometimes, new models come out that directly address that weakness. What in your opinion is the thing that is holding him back?

2) What matchups do you cringe if you have to play P. Thags? WM/H is often described as rock/paper/scissors. Assuming Thags is the Rock, what is his paper?

3) P. Thags is often mentioned as being squishy. Being an attrition style caster, I would expect opponents to try assassination a lot more often. When P. Thags drops, what usually is the culprit?

4) Every list I see Carniveans and/or Typhons but both models see less and less play. Obviously more expensive units are better for his feat and Spiny Growth is obviously a good animus. But is it holding him back to be boxed into playing models that other casters wouldn't? Playing Ravagore may get you one less point for your feat but if you're playing a model agreed to be overcosted, isn't it worth it to try running the Scythean + Shredder that most other lists use and just spread around tenacity instead?

5) Succubus. Is it worth taking one? The thought process here is that P. Thags can use spells like Obliteration that don't see much use right now. A succubus can upkeep Draconic Strength and a Spiny Growth potentially saving him three fury a turn. That's almost an Obliteration right there. Imagine the devastation if you're using a list that forces your opponent to come to you and you are blasting 4 inch AOE Pow 15 spells every turn to infantry that get too close.

Some stuff to start the conversation and maybe make a breakthrough in the process.

[Warcaster Feiss]

I'm finding pThags to be boss even in 50pts, against many Warcasters I find I end up trading Feats, they Feat to start the piece trades (e.g. eSkarre to set it up, Ossyan to shoot it off the table etc) at which point I'm Feat'ing to reset the balance, and so commences the grind, which is pThags' forte!

Worst match ups IMO has to be infantry spam, seeing eKreoss Tier 4, or pDenny weapon master spam across the table is a ballache. To that end I'm hoping to try out Carnivean / double Ravagore / Naga as my battlegroup today to see if that extra Scather helps bottle neck the infantry more!!

[Neutralyze]

Upkeep hate hurts pthags, Cryx in general is a hard matchup for him as well. Troll can rfp your heavies with their heavies but it can be mitigated.

i always felt his best matchups are against circle and it was the reason I began taking him to conventions.

[Defenstrator]

True. Personally I haven't found myself casting a lot of FoW, because I'm often up against stuff that ignores concealment and/or has a high enough RAT not to be bothered. I do admit that the latter is more of a detriment because of my use of low DEF warbeasts; I'm sure it's better with higher DEF infantry and beasts.

That's pretty different than me. I generally cast FoW and upkeep it the whole game. It's one of those little bumps that pushes the attrition in your favor, and it's surprising how annoying it is even late game. Different metas I guess.

[mcpolle]

Why do you feel that his best match ups are Circle?
Polle

[Neutralyze]

Circle doesn't like bad blood or high armor matchups. His feat also allows you to be in the winning side of attrition.