Mulg, I'm having trouble cracking trolls

[VagrantPoet]

He's ARM 23 with 34 boxes, there isn't anything he can't kill with ease, especially when he's with Doomshaper2 and his only weakness is speed 4, but he has in faction pathfinder, reach and several caster speed buffs as well as +2 speed if you hurt him.

A primalled ghetorix probably hits every time even with the wall.
2 off the dice means: 8.5 + 2 + 5 + 5 + 5 = 25.5 damage. That's almost ten short.

Circle don't have a large amount of guns with which to strip away Jannisa and the Krielstone bonus, or animi removal.

So how do people deal with him? It's all well and good to avoid him, but he should be in a central position threatening everything and with placeable walls its hard to move him around.

Do people just gun for Jannisa? How do you get her without committing ridiculous amounts of points?

There's been a recent shift to Trolls in our local store and I'm struggling to get my teeth into Mulg. And indeed high ARM lists with sons of bragg or champs, or swarms of Dires.

[Tallyrand]

I'm far from an expert but the Pureblood's animi would help a little more than Primal in that case. Which caster are you using?

[Bakemono]

I use Epic Kaya and not only can you get the Ghetorix to PS-23, she doesn't have to spend a Fury to make him charge. It changes your numbers quite a bit. Or as the previous poster said, take him to PS-21 and give him the Pureblood's Animus to get the same effect by lowing the ARM (and not Frenzy the following turn).

[Gobos]

wait for Mulg to charge. after that, he won't have stone aura or Earthborn's animus for protection, we can easily crack ARM19 Mulg. If Trolls send Mulg to kill a warpwolf and you kill Mulg in return, that's a good trade.
If you're looking for a way to get rid of Janissa, try LotF.
I have played against eDoomy recently with Morvahna, this matchup is difficult for beast-heavy trolls as they can't deal with infantry, and they have to chew through it to get to our heavies.

[Warcaster Feiss]

Wraithbane (the Pureblood's animus) won't let you ignore the ARM buff from Transmute. There's a ruling on it somewhere, but all Transmute does is give the model 'Elemental Communion', it doesn't directly add to DEF/ARM and so isn't ignored by the Blessed weapons granted by Wraithbane.

Baldur1's Earth Spikes has been about the only way I've been able to scalpel out Janissa from behind the wall. Baldur1 in general doesn't have too bad a time against Trolls (excepting Grim who has Cross Country).

[PG_cheddercaveman]

I also think I saw someone say "get Ghetorix to POW 21 and then give him wraithbane". I'd just like to point out that other than Kaya2 the only way to do that is with Primal, and he can't have both Primal AND Wraithbane.

Also, I'd recommend putting as many shots into the Krielstone as you can, as the members of the unit start dropping off, the size of the affect gets smaller and smaller.

[Patuljak]

Mohsar does well there. With Curse and Primal, a Stalker is MAT8 POW22. Still doesn't kill on average rolls, but you get darn close, so if you manage to ping him for a couple of points with javelins beforehand he dies. However, he's simply one of those beasts that are slow(ish) and really tough on the defensive, but melt without the buff stacking, so let him charge in and trade or just avoid him. The latter isn't really that hard in most armies, without Warpaths and Doomy feats his threat is 11" with Rush, so sometimes you can just keep him at bay.

Mohsar does well vs Trolls in general - Curse helps vs bricks, Crevasse clears out their single wounders (although you have to wait for turn 3 to get those Groves up field with Entropic) and feat can work wonders. They also have no easy way to clear pillars at range. Cassius does well too, but eKaya I find can't really chew through all their infantry - she usually gets swarmed, and they have no problem getting their crap infantry to high MAT and respectable POW. She does well in SOME matchups, though...but generally too beast heavy isn't the way to go vs Trolls I find.

Also, it definetly helps to try and get rid of KSB and Janissa asap - you just have to keep an eye out when you do your moves. Morvanha also does well because of this, as Regrowthed Trackers get in their backfield without a problem with aiming, and Eruption works well vs Burrowers and other stuff sometimes (medium bases really limit how much you can catch in that 3" AOE). Other than that, LOTF, Shrimps, Wolf Riders, anything works. I've played Trolls in MK1 and played a lot vs them in MK2 as they gave me a lot of trouble, and the key really is killing their support - without it they're left with mediocrity.

[Bakemono]

I also think I saw someone say "get Ghetorix to POW 21 and then give him wraithbane". I'd just like to point out that other than Kaya2 the only way to do that is with Primal, and he can't have both Primal AND Wraithbane.

Also, I'd recommend putting as many shots into the Krielstone as you can, as the members of the unit start dropping off, the size of the affect gets smaller and smaller.

Actually you can; Kaya-2 puts Forced Evolution on the Ghetorix giving him +2 STR and +2 DEF. When he warps for STR he will be at PS-21 with his Axe. He is STILL open for an Animus which can drop the ARM (if boosted by a spell) by -2 and give you an equal hit as if you took him up to PS-23 against that target. The added benefit is he won't frenzy on the following turn.

[IAvian]

P+S 23 with eKaya leads to: 10+7+7+7+4= 35... Only just about kills him on average, which renders it a little risky. That said, eKaya does seem to be the best answer, since she can pull out her beasts afterwards to avoid losing the trade, and she super-wins the trade is he does drop Mulg.

Or you can hit him with two beasts, though against 3+ Dires that tends to mean you're trading two beasts for one Mulg. (Again, eKaya shines)


Other than that, trying to get into the support is key - LoTF has been my bane against other Circle players (I'm one of the Troll players the OP is referring to) as he can often kill Janissa and the Krielstone in a go.


To help out with the thread in general, the lists I'm playing that are causing Vagrant Poet's Mulg woes are:

Borka (-5)
Earthborn (10)
Mulg (12)
Sons of Bragg (6)
Krielstone + UA (4)
Janissa (3)
Stone Scribe Chronicler (2)
[League Champ Hero Dude] (3)

Outside of the League, the list would probably end up dropping the Champ Hero and Three Tenors for Burrowers + Fell Caller but outside of the core EBDT/Mulg/Stone/Janissa, the list is fairly fluid.

And also:
Doomshaper2 (-6)
Mulg (12)
EBDT (10)
Mauler (9)
Bomber (10)
Axer (6)
KSB + UA (4)
Bone Grinders (2)
Janissa (3)

Both of the other Troll players in the store are running either a Borka or eDoomshaper list as well, with the same crunchy EBDT/Janissa/Stone support in both.

[Patuljak]

Weird double post, original a couple of posts up.

[VagrantPoet]

I'm increasingly considering Cassius.

Trolls can't see through the forest, and I can include Jannissa to stop them easily moving into it. Curse of shadows makes it easier to get heavies on mulg, and the feat and gallows groves might help against the tough.

I've yet to play Cassius though, so I'll have to think about it a bit more. Thanks for all the advice.

[IAvian]

Keep in mind that the Earthborn walks 10" under eDoomie's feat (12" with Rush) if there's forest everywhere. (Mulg can do 9" plus reach plus Goad)

[Lighten]

Cassius is awesome, you should play him

That said, don't forget that both Mohsar and pBaldur have significant denial and a damage buff that gets Ghetorix to the same effective P+S 23 as eKaya/Cassius. eKrueger also denies the charge well and TK and/or feat can move Mulg far enough away from the wall to drop his ARM.

[Bakemono]

Cassius is awesome, you should play him

That said, don't forget that both Mohsar and pBaldur have significant denial and a damage buff that gets Ghetorix to the same effective P+S 23 as eKaya/Cassius. eKrueger also denies the charge well and TK and/or feat can move Mulg far enough away from the wall to drop his ARM.

I'm not a fan of P-Baldur for that because it prevents Ghetorix from charging but it is a fair point otherwise. Mohsar is definitely going up in stock due to the Curse of Shadows, however, since the ability to phase right through one of the new "Big Guys" to reach the soft, squishy caster beyond will go a long way toward punishing those who rely too much on their new walking barriers.

[Lighten]

I'm not a fan of P-Baldur for that because it prevents Ghetorix from charging but it is a fair point otherwise. Mohsar is definitely going up in stock due to the Curse of Shadows, however, since the ability to phase right through one of the new "Big Guys" to reach the soft, squishy caster beyond will go a long way toward punishing those who rely too much on their new walking barriers.

Yep. pBaldur is certainly relying on having some stones alive to teleport Ghetorix if he wants to be P+S 23, or retaliating when Mulg comes in. It's not ideal, but the stones can often actually get teleports off in this sort of matchup.

I wouldn't have though Curse would be as useful, just because it doesn't allow you to see past the model and you probably can't charge/trample all the way past a 5" base anyway. What sort of setup would the curse/move through Colossal combo come into play? (thinking about it, Miraged bounding speed warped tramples do go a really long way, if you're looking for the shot. Though maybe primal instead of bounding, since you do actually need to kill the caster once you get to the other side).

[Lighten]

I'm not a fan of P-Baldur for that because it prevents Ghetorix from charging but it is a fair point otherwise. Mohsar is definitely going up in stock due to the Curse of Shadows, however, since the ability to phase right through one of the new "Big Guys" to reach the soft, squishy caster beyond will go a long way toward punishing those who rely too much on their new walking barriers.

Yep. pBaldur is certainly relying on having some stones alive to teleport Ghetorix if he wants to be P+S 23, or retaliating when Mulg comes in. It's not ideal, but the stones can often actually get teleports off in this sort of matchup.

I wouldn't have though Curse would be as useful, just because it doesn't allow you to see past the model and you probably can't charge/trample all the way past a 5" base anyway. What sort of setup would the curse/move through Colossal combo come into play? (thinking about it, Miraged bounding speed warped tramples do go a really long way, if you're looking for the shot. Though maybe primal instead of bounding, since you do actually need to kill the caster once you get to the other side).