Judicator

[paradox]

I would rank them:
1) Stormwall
2) Stormwall

I can't take this list seriously. Come back a try again when your knee stops jerking.
The stormwall is great, no doubt. On paper, it looks fantastic. However, it doesn't do much that Cygnar could not already do separately. It just repackages all that stuff in an efficient form. Even the lightining pod is not something Cygnar could not already accomplish in other ways. The pod just makes it easier to do.

I'm not going to dispute placing Stormwall at one (though you could, because I believe it looks better on paper than it actually is). Placing it twice is silly, though. It's hard to take you seriously when you do that.

[Baensidhe]

So, aside from eFeora, what warcaster leaps out at you as having great synergy with the Judicator?

Do you (the assembled Protectorate players) just take it as the only warjack in the list or do you put all your points into the Judicator and other warjacks?

Baensidhe
Aziz Ansari posts on my wall

[Soulblighter]

However, it doesn't do much that Cygnar could not already do separately.

Most of the Colossals dont do much that their respective factions couldnt do seperately. The Judicator certainly does nothing that Protectorate cant do with other combinations of models. Thats not really the point of Colossals or the criteria by which their effectiveness should be measured. The fact is the Stormwall is vastly better than any of the other Colossals. Both in base stats and in terms of buffs that can be applied. Snipe on a Stormwall is just downright scary.

[paradox]

I think you could fit it in any number of lists, as either one of sevral 'jacks, or the only one. Eg, in the other judicator thread, I theoried up a 2 judicator list with Vindictus. he can fuel 2 on the cheap, giving you two fully-loaded judicators evey turn.

Sevy1. Kreoss1. Sevy2 (becayse even withinaccurate, Awareness is scary with POW16 rockets and flare). Feora 1? That's one hell of a Blazing Effigy! Plus she has Ignite. Reznik because he's good with ~3 heavies, and this is a great heavy that can crowd-control too.

HR can't cloud it up, so it could make a target to bounce things off of. I'd be wary there. ToM can't make it incorporeal, so not as much fun there, and Holy Avenger doesn't work on it. No stealth, pursuit, or teleport from Thyra.

[paradox]

The fact is the Stormwall is vastly better [base stats] than any of the other Colossals.

Please clarify.

[Sniddy]

I can't take this list seriously. Come back a try again when your knee stops jerking.
The stormwall is great, no doubt. On paper, it looks fantastic. However, it doesn't do much that Cygnar could not already do separately. It just repackages all that stuff in an efficient form. Even the lightining pod is not something Cygnar could not already accomplish in other ways. The pod just makes it easier to do.

I'm not going to dispute placing Stormwall at one (though you could, because I believe it looks better on paper than it actually is). Placing it twice is silly, though. It's hard to take you seriously when you do that.

However, it doesn't do much that Cygnar could not already do separately...

In one package at silly armor where it can be protected by the best spell buffed up with the best offense - it really is the best and it is that good 'on paper'

So far nothing I've read on the others comes close - it's a league of it's own

Judy really is...well dull.., I love the mod so far and I'll likely get one, especially as I've always loved running efeora and burninating things....

It's uninspiring - it's nice, but it really isn't gonna make anyone jump up with excitement....but once you lay on a vassal and a partial choir the 21 point Judy looks better - till someone hoses the support pieces...

...I'll say it again, give us a nice gun vassal breaks it, high armor, buffs break it, good mat/power for points choir breaks it....so I start adding 'a point' or so to all jacks for the support - judy being at least 2 jacks in points is at least 20 points needed. 21 or so....and for 21 points I start to feel a little cheated....

Everything is 'balanced' so nothing we get is 'exciting' currently....

We can't kick off big time as it's OK we can just sigh a little and settle for a little meh

[Soulblighter]

Please clarify.

Compared to Judicator...
+1 SPD, +1 RAT, +2DEF, -4 boxes
Better at range, its guns are higher POW and more accurate
And with snipe all its guns can fire at 14"-18" (compared to Judicator's 8"-14" for accurate shots)
Better in melee since it gets electroleap.
Better at board control because of covering fire.
Oh and if that wasnt enough it gets lightning pods which are quite good.

For only 1 point more than the Judicator... The Stormwall really is the best Colossal by a huge margin.

Dont get me wrong I like the Judicator, despite my bashing it, I just dont think PP put as much thought into it as the Stormwall. its superstructure system (+1 focus) just seems unimaginative and lazy to me. Where the Lightning Pods are a very thematic and awesome addition to the Stormwall.

If you can get past Protectorate being the red-headed stepchild of warmachine then you can certainly find uses for the Judicator. Its very good at holding objectives since its basically an immovable object you can put no-shooty on. Opponents will find it virtually impossible to get a Judicator off an objective once its parked there. Its certainly going to have an impact on scenario play.

[Sniddy]

double post - but liking the above

[Baensidhe]

What struck me is what Sloan can do with a Stormwall...cast Fire Group and Return Fire and then it's shooting back with Big Gun.

Or Kraye using Guided Fire to give boosted attacks rolls to 2 + 2d3 ranged attacks (and Mage Sight wouldn't suck).

3Nemo deploys Lightning Pods, casts Lightning Shroud to make the Stormall's fists even nastier, uses his Feat.

These are both examples of how a warcaster's ability that was good with regular warjacks becomes more effective and more focus efficient with a single Colossal.

With the Judicator I feel (note I said feel, I'm not saying this as the absolute authority) I often feel like 'the Judicator is just as good' as an equivalent points value of warjacks. And just as good is fine, unless I'm spending $135 to get something that's just as good as the heavy and light warjacks I've already bought.

And I *am* buying one, because in my opinion, based on the concept drawing, the Judicator is the best and meanest looking of the Colossals.

Baensidhe
Judicate by appearances

[paradox]

Compared to Judicator...
+1 SPD, +1 RAT, +2DEF, -4 boxes
Better at range, its guns are higher POW and more accurate
And with snipe all its guns can fire at 14"-18" (compared to Judicator's 8"-14" for accurate shots)
Better in melee since it gets electroleap.
Better at board control because of covering fire.
Oh and if that wasnt enough it gets lightning pods which are quite good.

For only 1 point more than the Judicator... The Stormwall really is the best Colossal by a huge margin.

Dont get me wrong I like the Judicator, I just dont think PP put as much thought into it as the Stormwall. its superstructure system (+1 focus) just seems unimaginative and lazy to me. Where the Lightning Pods are a very thematic and awesome addition to the Stormwall.

SDP and RAT I'll give you. DEF10 vs DEF8 is a silly comparison. Both are essentially meanginless.

Snipe is on three 'casters in Cygnar (Stryker1, Sloane, Caine 1)? Then let's give Judicator DW, because we have 3 'casters with that. Now Judicator is DEF10 ARM21 and + 4 boxes vs Stormwall. Far more durable.

Better at range vs single target, yes, thanks to accuracy. Assuming hits vs low DEF models, we have better damage output. Assuming standard support, we have greater potential too.

Better in melee? No. Fighting troops with either is a waste of time. You just sweep, which makes no leaps. Judicator hits harder, with many more options to get the harder hits buffed even more. If Stormwall is meleeing, it's dead next turn, thans to being the softest colossal period. Also, Judicator can be Passaged or Warded. Stormwall is sucking down every shot you put in to it. Making it even worse idea to get into melee with it. You could arc shield it, but Menoth will strip or punish the upkeep. Most other factions of Hex Blast, Eiyrss2, WSC, etc to strip upkeeps as well. In either case, Judicator will still swing dice + on a AS Stormwall. The reverse is not true. Stormwall is straightup worse in melee.

Covering fire is great vs single-wound troops. That is true in that aspect of board control. This is one of the two best things about Stormwall. But this is nothing that Cygnar can't do already far cheaper.

Lightining pods are great. Not as great as they are being made out to be, but good. 2nd best thing about Stormwall. Free focus is also pretty damned good, and is not getting as much credit as it deserves. Especially in a faction with so much focus help already.

Stormwall is great at range. Melee is a trap for most any colossal. This is more true of stormwall, though, than any other colossal. Stormwall is great at shooting. Thus, it's probably better than Judicator in the overall. Not by any great margin, though.

[jandrese]

Comparing Defenders Ward to Snipe seems a little disingenuous don't you think? Besides, the Judicator is a whopping 3.5 points cheaper than the Stormwall, because the Stormwall requires you to take a Jr. to put Arcane Shield on it at all times, whereas the Judicator only needs a 0.5 point choirboy.

[paradox]

Maybe in the on-table effects, but it approximates the commonality of a "common in-faction buff" that snipe and DW represent. Cygnar is "shooty" like Menoth is "tough."

You can assume snipe and AS on stormwall, but if you do then you should also assume choir and DW on judicator. I would not cost jr in because you are taking him anyway, like choir.

[Mod_Gemini]

HR can't cloud it up, so it could make a target to bounce things off of. I'd be wary there.

Speaking of bouncing things off of him, he's a great target for A2A. Def 6 with a backstrike, and d6 models within 5" of that massive base? Yes please.

[Craaag]

So, aside from eFeora, what warcaster leaps out at you as having great synergy with the Judicator?

I think it fits in where all the others did personally. Kreoss pop n drop puts alot of ranged attacks on the table, Sevvy's EOM bonus and Vision could keep it in the game a little longer, even pFeora's Blazing Effigy (that covers a monstrous table space too), I think even Ad Raza and Synergy could make this thing insane. Use it's melee fists at the end of a Synergy train of Dervishes for some uber damage and a MAT to match.

[Tyras]

Comparing Defenders Ward to Snipe seems a little disingenuous don't you think? Besides, the Judicator is a whopping 3.5 points cheaper than the Stormwall, because the Stormwall requires you to take a Jr. to put Arcane Shield on it at all times, whereas the Judicator only needs a 0.5 point choirboy.

While a choir member may be 0.5 pts a piece, you can't just field them one at a time so it's gonna knock at least two points off the bottom line.

I'm still reserving judgement on the Judy, but when words like disingenuous are being tossed about I can't help but to look at all of the praise being put onto the Judicator without adding in the points cost. People mention the choir, the Reckoner, and Vassals, each costing points or a situation (like aiming, or using a specific warcaster) to achieve the performance being talked about in these threads but make it seem that they get that performance regardless of the make up of the list or the situation a player finds himself in, all for the 18 point cost.

I'm not bashing on the Judicator, I'll have to proxy it a few times against different lists using different warcasters before I can say one way or the other if it's worth the $135 or the 18 points +support. I'm pointing out that those that feel the Judicator underperforms are being beat up or called disingenous for their assesment of the model compared to others at base cost, but those that are defending the Judicator seem to discount what it takes to get the numbers achieved with support, that's disingenous as well.

[paradox]

when words like disingenuous are being tossed about I can't help but to look at all of the praise being put onto the Judicator without adding in the points cost.

You're taking choir anyways, and often enough vassals too. Unless you incorporate the costs of support into all 'jacks, it is fair to consider justicator with typical support taken. This is how all Menite 'jacks are viewed.

The reckoner is another matter. I would not count on Flare without including it's cost separate from the judicator.

[Spyde]

Cygnar can have Snipe, they cant shoot my Jacks without A&H though... I Haz choir.. Last i remember.. Stormwalls ranged attacks arent magical.


To me best casters for Judicator ?

1st - efeora: Escort - Bond Those 2 things right there... and Ignite if you wanted PS24 but meh/
2nd - pSevvy - Defenders Ward + Eye.. psevvy makes everything better!
3rd - Harby - Crusaders Call

Stormwall + Journeyman = 22pts
Judicator + Choir + Vassal = 22pts..but! Choir is helping my other Jacks at the same time.

Stormwall - 2x Range 14 PoW 15 guns
2x Range 10 Power 12 (2x AoE 3 Cover fire templates)
Lightning Pod - PoW 10.. had to do Damage to Disrupt our jacks. Must roll above average..

Judicator - 2x Range 14 PoW 14 ChainBlast AoE's (3rd Shot from Vassal Regardless of caster)
2x Spray 8 Pow 12 Flamers (3rd Shot from Vassal regardless of caster if not used for above) Cont. Fire.
Is Auto allocated 1x Focus a turn for free.

Judicator gets choir which also effects our other jacks.. Stormwall gets a Journeyman.. Which we can remove his buff with ease.


I will keep my Judicator.

[West996]

I'll preface this post with the fact that I am not a Menoth player, (YET.) However if you will allow me to speak in generalities I would like to point out a few things that seem to have been glossed over on this thread so far.

First off this whole thread seems to be comparing the Stats of each Colossal directly against one another. I understand the temptation because they are all being released at the same time, but cross faction comparison has always been flawed.

It is like comparing the Crusader to the Slayer. They seem like they should be comparable because they their stat cards are very similar, yet it is surely an apples and oranges comparison when you take each faction into account.

So that leaves us with discussing just what the Judicator does for Menoth. I see everyone saying that it doesn't do anything knew then what PoM jacks do already. Fair enough but, and this is what I don't see to much mention of for some reason, the Judicator is no Jack.

What about the fact that it can't be knocked down, placed, disrupted, ect... With all the immunities that Menoth can already add to their Jacks, that is a whole ton of rule ignoring there. Sure every Colossal has it, but what does that mean for Menoth? A big huge base that can't be knocked down.

So now you have this huge base, that has the potential to be immune to either spells or ranged attacks, as well as immunity to knock, disruption and place effects. Not to mention it has solid abilities otherwise when supported just like the rest of PoM jacks. Maybe those specific abilities are nothing new, but they are all packed on a model that does have a whole new rule set.

You can't be pulled off your objective, no reaper is going to pull you in a group of banes, they have to come to you. There will be no TK to move you out of place to open up charge lanes to your support or turn you around to prevent charging and give a back strike bonus. No Cygnar disruption. No slamming you into your support models and knocking you down.

Don't discount this new rule set and what it can do for Menoth. Taking a Colossal is not the same as taking equivalent points of Jacks that have the same weapon abilities. Not by a long shot.

[Soulblighter]

What about the fact that it can't be knocked down, placed, disrupted, ect... With all the immunities that Menoth can already add to their Jacks, that is a whole ton of rule ignoring there. Sure every Colossal has it, but what does that mean for Menoth? A big huge base that can't be knocked down.

Our warjacks cant be knocked down anyway with the Covenant.

The Judicator really only has two advantages. The first is that you pay a few less points for the whole weapons package than if you bought Redeemers, Repenters, etc... seperately, although this comes at a huge hit to survivability. The second is the ability to not be moved out-of-turn, but that comes at the cost of not being able to use enliven.

I think the Judicator is probably worth 18 points for its capabilities. But the Stormwall should definitely cost 20-21 points. Weve already gone over everything the Stormwall does better and its easily worth 2-3 points more.

Comparing Defenders Ward to Snipe seems a little disingenuous don't you think? Besides, the Judicator is a whopping 3.5 points cheaper than the Stormwall, because the Stormwall requires you to take a Jr. to put Arcane Shield on it at all times, whereas the Judicator only needs a 0.5 point choirboy.

I dont believe that Arcane Shield is required on the Stormwall at all times (ARM19 with 56 boxes is highly resilient). Plus you cant buy choirs in 0.5 increments so its costing us at least 2 points for a min Choir. Also the Stormwall gets 2-3 points of freebies over the Judicator. There is no way that list of advantages the Stormwall has over the Judicator only amounts to 1 point.

I dont believe that different factions are apples and oranges because the whole purpose of having a point system is so two players can field armies of approximately equal value. If the point system was skewed differently for each faction then it wouldnt work.

[Blackraine]

At the end of the day, the thing that will have me buying and fielding two of them is this: IT'S A BIG FREAKING WALKING CATHEDRAL! Like, for real, is there any other reason you NEED to put the thing on the table? It's the single coolest looking model in a game full of cool looking models! Even Menoth glances up through the Avatars eyes and wipes a fiery tear from his eyes every time he looks at it.

[Alzer]

At the end of the day, the thing that will have me buying and fielding two of them is this: IT'S A BIG FREAKING WALKING CATHEDRAL! Like, for real, is there any other reason you NEED to put the thing on the table? It's the single coolest looking model in a game full of cool looking models! Even Menoth glances up through the Avatars eyes and wipes a fiery tear from his eyes every time he looks at it.

What Blackraine said.

Actually having an option for your second list in a Tourney setting with Character restrictions that avoids The Book is a pretty solid deal. Having an option for your second list in a Tourney setting that can't be knocked down (And can total a heavy without being given focus) well.... I think that's a fantastic Idea.

I wonder how the Judge would look with a Vessel base instead of legs.... I may not need to pay rent in December >>.

I think my main issue is the way I'm looking at building lists at this point in time just doesn't leave much option for The Judge. I'm trying out Light-spam with Vindictus atm, and Reznik just doesn't look that great with it. (I'd rather take several heavies). And well, pKreoss is super boring. I think I'll pick up eSevvy to run The Judge.

[West996]

Our warjacks cant be knocked down anyway with the Covenant.

The Judicator really only has two advantages. The first is that you pay a few less points for the whole weapons package than if you bought Redeemers, Repenters, etc... seperately, although this comes at a huge hit to survivability. The second is the ability to not be moved out-of-turn, but that comes at the cost of not being able to use enliven.

I think the Judicator is probably worth 18 points for its capabilities. But the Stormwall should definitely cost 20-21 points. Weve already gone over everything the Stormwall does better and its easily worth 2-3 points more.



I dont believe that Arcane Shield is required on the Stormwall at all times (ARM19 with 56 boxes is highly resilient). Plus you cant buy choirs in 0.5 increments so its costing us at least 2 points for a min Choir. Also the Stormwall gets 2-3 points of freebies over the Judicator. There is no way that list of advantages the Stormwall has over the Judicator only amounts to 1 point.

I dont believe that different factions are apples and oranges because the whole purpose of having a point system is so two players can field armies of approximately equal value. If the point system was skewed differently for each faction then it wouldnt work.

The covenant has restrictions of his own and can be destroyed. It also has a range to its KD protection right? So having a Jack that can do it on its own is still valuable.

I don't get how you figure you are taking a huge hit to your survivability by taking a Colossal over separate Jacks. The same advantage that we are talking about, no placement, no KD....

.. I also notice that you didn't touch on the fact that the Judicator can not be disrupted. That is pretty special and it does directly combat the Storm Wall. If you want to pit them against each other, that is how you should be doing it. The Judicator can walk up the field at toward a StormWall fully immune to all its ranged attacks as well as immune to its disruption abilities. Of course there could be other things for the StormWall to shoot at but as far as the Judicator is concerned the StormWall is just a beat stick.

Don't get me wrong, I have problems with the Storm Wall as well, and as a Cryx player I think I have bigger problems with you. So I am not entirely convinced that the Storm Wall doesn't need an errata or two.

That shouldn't take away from what the Judicator is and does for Menoth though.

[paradox]

although this comes at a huge hit to survivability.
I dont believe that Arcane Shield is required on the Stormwall at all times (ARM19 with 56 boxes is highly resilient).

1. These assertions appear to be mutually exclusive.
2. Redeemers, repenters, etc, are ARM17, and individual models, so can only benefit from buffs like choir, vassals, DW, etc, on a 1-1 basis. The judicator is a single model and will gain the benefits so long as you have access to a single instance. Further, a greater amount of total boxes /= equate to great resiliance (as hinted at in your latter stormwall reference). A judicator can always be ARM21 with DW. Not so with multiple 'jacks, especially lights.
And on that note, POW14 rockets with double AoEs /= like a redeemer, really. Especially as it demands no focus, and even gives a free focus, as compared to two redeemers needing at least 1 focus each, and each redeemer needing its own vassal to approximate more shots.

If you want to compare cross-faction, at least give your own side a fair shake before jumping on the doom.

[jandrese]

I dont believe that Arcane Shield is required on the Stormwall at all times (ARM19 with 56 boxes is highly resilient).

Strongly disagree here. It's not fragile, but ARM 19 with 56 boxes is not even on the same planet survivability wise as ARM 22 and 56 boxes. ARM 21 is about the breakpoint in Warmachine where normal anti-armor beings to struggle, and ARM 22 is even better than that. If you don't knock Arcane Shield off (or ignore it somehow) of the Stormwall, your chances of actually killing it are poor at best with anything except the most overkilly of lists (Amon with lots of jacks, buffed Bronzebacks, etc...)

[Lanz]

Soulblighter, have you actually played with a Stormwall yet? Because I've seen it on the table a few times (heck, I have one myself), and so far it's shaping up to be a rock-solid defensive warjack, but it won't scratch how much more aggressive the Judicator is. The guns are good, but linear. Unless they're firing at hard targets, they're hardly worth firing at all. The chainguns best feature is arguably Covering Fire, but that not only works pretty much only on infantry, but it also leaves the damage-dealing totally in the other players hands. Which can backfire. The direct shots are the very essence of unreliability. Average RAT, unpredictable quantity of shots. The Lightning pods are great, and tons of fun, but you're realistically only going to zap 1-2 models with it. The real value comes from the Stormsmiths (which are just as auto-include as Jr, in my opinion).

By contrast, the Judicator's primary weapons are all-purpose. There is no reason not to fire them every single turn, and there is nothing that isn't worth firing them at. Direct hits can be boosted and buffed, blasts kill infantry. When things get close, it brings in sprays as well, which do all the good things sprays do, and Protectorate does it best with RAT 7 POW 14 sprays.

Anyways, your perception of the Stormwall seems very skewed. I think you need to see it on the table more.

[Sanguinary Dan]

At the end of the day, the thing that will have me buying and fielding two of them is this: IT'S A BIG FREAKING WALKING CATHEDRAL! Like, for real, is there any other reason you NEED to put the thing on the table? It's the single coolest looking model in a game full of cool looking models! Even Menoth glances up through the Avatars eyes and wipes a fiery tear from his eyes every time he looks at it.

BINGO!. This is why I'm buying one. It will be ridiculously cool.

[Baensidhe]

BINGO!. This is why I'm buying one. It will be ridiculously cool.

Which is largely my feeling; it looks so damn cool.

Craag and West996 had some good points; all the defensive buffs the Protectorate already has, and this one can't be knocked down or slammed or any other movement shenanigans.

My post was not, 'man, the Judicator sucks' but I was disappointed that it wasn't better than it was. I think calling that DOOM is overstating, but I do feel better about than I did.

I've been talking to Cryx players, and they like the Kraken because even if the Kraken is more vulnerable than the other factions' Colossals...it's still a bigger ball of danger than anything else they've had up 'til now except for the Deathjack. Cryx has gotten good stuff like Erebus and Malice, but nothing quite so flat-out dangerous.

Baensidhe
I took third place in a Theorymachine tournament. See my imaginary badge?

[paradox]

because even if the Kraken is more vulnerable than the other factions' Colossals...

I must have missed the "More Vulnerable" rule on Kraken. How do you figure?

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

I must have missed the "More Vulnerable" rule on Kraken. How do you figure?

Yeah.... though it may statistically be a little lower than most colossals, there's a whole lot to be said for a model that you tear up another colossal from 4" reach and then lock it down with either a pistol wraith or warwitch siren.

[Baensidhe]

I must have missed the "More Vulnerable" rule on Kraken. How do you figure?

I honestly don't know; I was reporting what I was told by Cryx players, and inferred that it had lower ARM or fewer boxes overall, and Cryx has more spells and tricks debuffing you then making their own stuff more survivable.

That was the gist of what I was told. If the Kraken isn't more vulnerable, good for Cryx.

What am I saying?!


Baensidhe
If you like Cryx...you're kind of a necrophiliac

[West996]

good for Cryx.

What am I saying?!

You see how easy that was? The Dragonfather welcomes you.

I will expect your 'starting Cryx' thread on our faction forums with in the week.

[Soulblighter]

I don't get how you figure you are taking a huge hit to your survivability by taking a Colossal over separate Jacks. The same advantage that we are talking about, no placement, no KD....

Because light jacks get way more hull boxes per point cost than the judicator. Plus when you have seperate light jacks when one of the light jacks is overkilled the damage disappears. But on the Judicator it transfers to the other grid. So you are getting a bit less survivability for the same points cost.

Soulblighter, have you actually played with a Stormwall yet? Because I've seen it on the table a few times (heck, I have one myself), and so far it's shaping up to be a rock-solid defensive warjack, but it won't scratch how much more aggressive the Judicator is.

Huh? Youve got it mixed up. Its the Judicator thats the defensive Colossal because of no-shooty. The Stormwall is far more aggressive than the Judicator. It moves faster than the Judicator plus it gets a larger volume of firepower and longer range. Plus its better than a Judicator in melee excluding choir buffs.

[West996]

Sorry Soulblighter, but you're just plain wrong.

Light Jack's can be killed by things that won't put a scratch on the Judicator, and maybe you have not faced too many caster with TK, or two many Cryx lists with Reapers in them to truly appreciate the no placement effects rule.

You will also start loosing systems much faster on a light Jack. Your damage boxes per point stat really is irrelevant. One good defender shot can all but disable a light Jack. The same can not be said for the Judicator.

Also you have more opportunity to repair the Judicator if you choose to include a mechanic because it is unlikely to go down in one turn. Not so for a light Jack, or even a heavy for that matter.

[Lanz]

Huh? Youve got it mixed up. Its the Judicator thats the defensive Colossal because of no-shooty. The Stormwall is far more aggressive than the Judicator. It moves faster than the Judicator plus it gets a larger volume of firepower and longer range. Plus its better than a Judicator in melee excluding choir buffs.

I'll take that as a 'no', then.

[Murphy's lawgiver.]

Having more firepower doesn't mean it's more aggressive. And honestly covering fire is annoying as hell in some scenario and some table, but it's damage you can easily avoid (or play with = sending exemplars or zealot in the aoe to get bonus is not unheard of) and it's pretty useless against heavy target or when shooting directly at targets.

And this : "excluding choir buff", i mean, really? All our 'jacks lacks in direct comparison with others faction 'jacks. And that's normal, because we have the best support for 'jacks in the game, including choir. The Judicator (and every godamn -i mean godbless, sorry Menoth!- warjacks!) BEG for choir, vassal, reclaimer, etc.

You are comparing two models who doesn't cost the same - if you are going like that, ok, let's restore the balance with one more point for US, and take a choir => Judicator + choir = 20, Stormwall = 19. Hey man, it's only one point, but we all know who's gonna win this fight - so please be honest and take a comparison with the WHOLE forcebook.

When i take a glance at the stormwall, i see a pretty model (i actually like it) with some strong ability, some decent one, and yes THUNDERGOD theme. But i don't see the horrifying monster you are trying to sell us;
And when i take a glance at the Judicator, i see a goda.. GODBLESS cool model... with synergy. Synergy everywhere. Choir = no you can't shoot my big model no ; Vassal = let's take another shot, shall we? Oh, i mean TWO other shot, of course ; reclaimer = one free focus is pretty cool, but i'm sure you don't mind two others?

This game is not about duel between two models, it's about a whole army composition vs another whole army composition, and forgetting that is just forgetting you are playing the synergy faction.

[Bishop84]

you are playing the synergy faction.

I am SO tired of hearing this. We don't have any more synergy than anyone else. In fact, in many cases we have less than some. Unless dependence on the choir is what makes us the synergy faction. We've definitely got that going on.

[Murphy's lawgiver.]

Unless dependence on the choir is what makes us the synergy faction. We've definitely got that going on.

The fact is that most of our jacks are from the bottom of the barrel, or just average. What makes them shine is the choir, and if i'm tied to pay 2 points to have a pretty boost, i'm cool with that.
Seriously, I can't believe you are pissed of by the choir.

I am SO tired of hearing this. We don't have any more synergy than anyone else. In fact, in many cases we have less than some.

I think you didn't get what i mean. I'm not saying others factions are playing straightforward with easy go-to-multitask models, nor i'm saying we are the best faction overall. But, honestly, i can't say i've seen a faction that needs so much supports models to work great.
That said, the subject of this thread is the Judicator.

[Bishop84]

Seriously, I can't believe you are pissed of by the choir.

I'm pissed off by the choir? Wow, I don't remember ever saying that. I love the choir. I just said we depend on them.

I think you didn't get what i mean. I'm not saying others factions are playing straightforward with easy go-to-multitask models, nor i'm saying we are the best faction overall. But, honestly, i can't say i've seen a faction that needs so much supports models to work great.

To be fair, I wasn't targeting just you. I hear "we are the synergy faction" a lot. I just don't get it. We don't have any more synergy than anyone else. I also don't think we need tons of support models in every list to work great either. And even then, most of the support we have is more denial than synergy.

[PG_Deist]

Because light jacks get way more hull boxes per point cost than the judicator. Plus when you have seperate light jacks when one of the light jacks is overkilled the damage disappears. But on the Judicator it transfers to the other grid. So you are getting a bit less survivability for the same points cost.



Huh? Youve got it mixed up. Its the Judicator thats the defensive Colossal because of no-shooty. The Stormwall is far more aggressive than the Judicator. It moves faster than the Judicator plus it gets a larger volume of firepower and longer range. Plus its better than a Judicator in melee excluding choir buffs.

How is the Judicator more defensive? It has a lower DEF and its ARM doesn't get as high. Their MAT is the same and their PoW is the same on weapons...how is it better in melee? They also both have the same range on their primary guns. Stormwall is more durable, but the Judicator has way more offence in faction.

[Baensidhe]

At a certain point, you're talking about probability theory. Are you better off taking a single model with higher ARM and more damage boxes, but with Dark Aura, Gorman's Rust, and Parasite is in deep trouble, or taking four smaller jacks, each with less survivability...but if all those bonuses are applied to one of them, it leaves three untouched, and if you spread out all those negative buffs, each one could still survive.

There seems to me a lot of Tier lists that don't allow Choir; also, if you're playing Cygnar and all the Electro-Leap and Strafe they have, you can't always assume you're going to have Choir. Is anyone saying, "I'd never take the Judicator unless I get to take Choir?"


Baensidhe
Dating Daniel Tosh