Judicator

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Is anyone saying, "I'd never take the Judicator unless I get to take Choir?"

Yup. I'm saying exactly that. Protectorate players should know how to protect their choir. And the tier lists that don't allow the choir are either objectively bad or want to focus on infantry anyway.

[Bishop84]

How is the Judicator more defensive? It has a lower DEF and its ARM doesn't get as high. Their MAT is the same and their PoW is the same on weapons...how is it better in melee? They also both have the same range on their primary guns. Stormwall is more durable, but the Judicator has way more offence in faction.

Built in Electro-leap on the fists. Generally that doesn't matter too much, but when we tend to have lots of support pieces withing 4" of our big hard targets...

Same range on primary guns, but Stormwall has 5 higher RAT and an extra POW.

Comparing them side by side without adding in the choir makes things look worse than they are.

[Murphy's lawgiver.]

I'd never take the Judicator unless I get to take Choir?

Of course i won't take the Judicator without choir. It seems pretty obvious for me.

If your opponent achieve to fry your choir, they did a great move, and you did a horrible one. There's no way you can't see that one coming.

Comparing them side by side without adding in the choir makes things look worse than they are.

You are still doing this... comparison side by side between 2 models is never relevant, except if you are comparing two model of the same army who have the same purpose. And that happens very few times, not to say never.

The real question, and i think that's the only REAL question is : Do the Judicator have some synergy (I saw your evil glance Bishop84!) with the protectorate, Do the Judicator is a good deal in our faction, does it bring some utility, so, all in one :

Is the Judicator a useful model (or at least fun to play) ?

For me, the answer is yes.

PS : I hate these "grass greener on the other side" post.

[Bishop84]

You are still doing this... comparison side by side between 2 models is never relevant, except if you are comparing two model of the same army who have the same purpose. And that happens very few times, not to say never.

I was responding to a post that did compare them side by side and still managed to miss the big differences. My stance in this thread has never really been about comparing the individual colossal stats side by side. I just feel that the Judicator is far too anti-infantry focused. For that many points, it should be more versatile without having to stack every single bonus in the game.

The real question, and i think that's the only REAL question is : Do the Judicator have some synergy (I saw your evil glance Bishop84!) with the protectorate

Hehe. I don't mind synergy here and and there, and we do have it. I'm just irked by the "synergy faction" statement.

[Lanz]

I am SO tired of hearing this. We don't have any more synergy than anyone else. In fact, in many cases we have less than some. Unless dependence on the choir is what makes us the synergy faction. We've definitely got that going on.

Yes, we do. A lot more. Most of out models have special synergies with other models. Sure every faction has "these guys go good together" synergies, but Protectorate has the most actual rules that trigger off other models in the army, and cause things to happen to other models in the army. That's a fact. Go map out every single model in every single faction, and protectorate will have the most rules that function in relation to other friendly models.

So whether you like it or not, the Synergy faction Protectorate indeed is.

[Bishop84]

Go map out every single model in every single faction, and protectorate will have the most rules that function in relation to other friendly models.

This is entirely a subject for a different thread, but it would be interesting to figure it all out.

[paradox]

Yup. I'm saying exactly that. Protectorate players should know how to protect their choir. And the tier lists that don't allow the choir are either objectively bad or want to focus on infantry anyway.

Werd it up.

[Murphy's lawgiver.]

I just feel that the Judicator is far too anti-infantry focused

Good point. But because it's so anti infantry just mean the rest of the list have to be anti-heavy focused (or some more anti infantry if you just like to shoot rocket, bombs, torpedoes and missile).

The Judicator lacks anti-heavy gunnery, ok. (again, Choir + Eye of Menoth + Ayana's kiss (this one is not easy to get, i know) can put some serious threat to some heavys).
But it's so good at clearing high def infantry and solo that i'm ok with that. (Roven will be good with the judicator too!)
And also, never forget the AWM rule. It's pretty important.

Ps: AWM (Awesome Looking Model)

[ArneB]

Of course we are the synergy faction. We even have the spell.

[Marzuki]

Just saw a Bronzeback take down a Stormwall at full boxes in one charge today. Saw another one go down when a Templar and Reckoner went to town on it. While stacks of boxes look good these guys will go down when hit hard. Keep that in mind when a.)building list for survivability, and b.) PLACEMENT. You *must* keep charge lanes fairly jammed or you're going to have a nice big 120mm wreck marker.

[Lanz]

and b.) PLACEMENT. You *must* keep charge lanes fairly jammed or you're going to have a nice big 120mm wreck marker.

Another reason the Judicator will be tougher than expected; Flameguard and Errants are boss at blocking charge lines.

[SnakeEyes]

Go map out every single model in every single faction, and protectorate will have the most rules that function in relation to other friendly models.

Why don't you? My bet is that we don't have any more inter-model dependencies than some other factions. The "synergy" faction of the Protectorate is a fallacy. I've done this years ago and not interested in putting the time in to reproduce it.

[SnakeEyes]

Okay, I couldn't help it.
Here's a comparison of Cygnar vs. Protectorate in abilities on models that affects/are triggered by other models.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Wt6V1pScmJUcmc

This does not include warcasters or warcaster attachments because these have implicit synergies with each other and their armies. Nor does it include Mercenary of Minion models, which would likely skew the comparison towards Cygnar, with their greater access to Merc/Minion models.

As you can see, the model count of "synergy abilities" is equal. We are not the synergy faction of myth and vet players should not be perpetuating this myth.

[Lanz]

Hm. Well, perhaps sheer numbers are not the best qualifier, anyways. Nearly half of those Cygnar options are either not used, or their synergy isn't used, except in very rare situations. Nearly everything on the protectorate side is a common sight in lists. Things like 'jack marshal with no other ability are 'synergy' abilities, sure, but they're generally not good synergies. They're not really enabling anything special, or when they are, it's very minor and corner-case.

So, sure, I guess other factions probably come close in terms of having access to models with synergistic rules. But they don't use those models as often as Protectorate list does. They don't get a significant power boost from as many of them as a Protectorate list does.

[darisus]

All this talking about things is making me want to try out some of my wilder ideas with a Judicator proxy....

I have a fairly decent reputaion for coming up with unseen combos in my local meta, and i feel this will be no exception.

Then again if i can't get many to work i may get laughed at like i do when i put Sam and the DD on the table in games. Who by the way i really want to try with Harby and Judicator. Nothing like taking away inaccurate by just KDing anything i want to direct hit with a DD net form 11.5" out with and extra die to hit or a marshalled buccaneer. Or maybe changing out my eSevy list to put him and them in.

Call me crazy (alot of people do), but i see alot of potential in Sam and the DD with a slew of marshalled jacks and maybe the AP to really suprise people.

[Soulblighter]

So, sure, I guess other factions probably come close in terms of having access to models with synergistic rules. But they don't use those models as often as Protectorate list does. They don't get a significant power boost from as many of them as a Protectorate list does.

I agree with Snakeeyes that Protectorate isnt the synergy faction. It's really the attrition and denial faction. Attrition abilities are often mistaken for synergy but arn't quite the same thing as synergy because they generally require a friendly model to die or suffer damage before granting a buff.

As far as synergy goes, I'd say Cygnar has much stronger synergy than the Protectorate. Cygnar has more models that give buffs to other models. Even their Colossal has synergistic interactions with other models in the faction (i.e. lightning pods).

Nearly half of those Cygnar options are either not used, or their synergy isn't used, except in very rare situations.

It doesnt matter if theyre used or not. They still exist. For example, no one uses Sword Knights, but that doesnt mean they arnt a synergy model. Even if Cygnar players choose not to use their synergies, Cygnar is still more of a synergy faction than Protectorate is.

How is the Judicator more defensive? It has a lower DEF and its ARM doesn't get as high. Their MAT is the same and their PoW is the same on weapons...how is it better in melee? They also both have the same range on their primary guns. Stormwall is more durable, but the Judicator has way more offence in faction.

The Judicator is more defensive because of no-shooty and the fact its SPD4 and lacks strong ranged weapons. The Stormwall is SPD5 and has much longer range and can get into the fight much quicker. The Stormwall is also less durable because it has less hull boxes and can be damaged by ranged attacks unlike the Judicator.

The Stormwall is better in melee because it has electroleap on its fists as well as the ability to drop lightning pods which automatically hit. It also has a better charge threat range. Yes its true the Choir can make the Judicator better in melee, but I think thats a huge risk, because without no-shooty the Judicator becomes a fire magnet and every ranged attack will hit it.

Also the Stormwall has way more offense in faction than the Judicator. The higher power and longer range on its weapons gives it a way more consistent ranged damage output. And Cygnar has plenty of ways to further increase its ranged effectiveness as well.

[Murphy's lawgiver.]

It doesnt matter if theyre used or not. They still exist. For example, no one uses Sword Knights, but that doesnt mean they arnt a synergy model. Even if Cygnar players choose not to use their synergies, Cygnar is still more of a synergy faction than Protectorate is.

So if you are able to bake cake, but because all of your cake are awful everyone ask you for your wonderful pizza (and you made it) you're still more a cake maker than a pizza maker?
Etymologically that's correct, but in practice that's wrong.

I agree in near everything you say on the stormwall vs Judicator... except for three things.

The Stormwall is better in melee because it has electroleap on its fists as well as the ability to drop lightning pods which automatically hit. It also has a better charge threat range.

If we are talking about anti infantry capacity in close combat (drop pod and electroleap is here for that) we can also speak about TWO FLAMETHROWERS, don't you think?
With the size of the model, charging with is pretty hard anyway. It'll more be counterattack fight.
And please, better and melee? Yeah, on the paper. But where's the choir?

The higher power and longer range on its weapons gives it a way more consistent ranged damage output. And Cygnar has plenty of ways to further increase its ranged effectiveness as well.

We already said that : Choir + pSevy (+ some other bonus if you want) boost the long range threat to the field of the anti-heavy gunnery (well, most of heavy). And the sentence "Cygnar [...] it's ranged effectiveness as well." doesn't mean anything, because Khador can boost the Conquest, Cygnar can boost the Stormwall, PoM can boost the Judicator, Cryx can boost the kraken, etc...

Please, stop comparing two models who aren't part of the same army, who doesn't cost the same amount of point, who doesn't have access to the same support, who doesn't have access to the same spell...

You can point the weaknesses and the strong rules of the Judicator and that will be more honest, not to say more accurate.

[Soulblighter]

So if you are able to bake cake, but because all of your cake are awful everyone ask you for your wonderful pizza (and you made it) you're still more a cake maker than a pizza maker?
Etymologically that's correct, but in practice that's wrong.

That analogy makes no sense. It's not even the same thing. None of Cygnar's models are so bad that they can't be used. The problem is more the points cost makes it hard to use all of them in the same list. Cygnar stuff tends to cost a lot. That's why its hard to really see Cygnar's synergy in full effect outside of theme lists. It's absolutely there though.

If we are talking about anti infantry capacity in close combat

I was talking more about the Stormwalls ability to smash jacks and consequently kill infantry at the same time with electroleap. That's something the Judicator cant really do. Thats why electroleap and lightning pods are so good. Also the lightning pods autohit and disrupt warjacks which is amazing.

If we were talking about the Stormwalls ability to kill infantry we would be discussing its Metalstorms instead because thats how the Stormwall kills infantry. It can be debated whether or not the flamers are better than the metalstorms but personally I think covering fire is insanely good.

Please, stop comparing two models who aren't part of the same army, who doesn't cost the same amount of point, who doesn't have access to the same support, who doesn't have access to the same spell...

Why? Its not a secret what those point costs are, or what those support spells are, its all quantifiable and thus comparable. Again I dont buy into the whole apples and oranges argument. Plus the Stormwall and Judicator essentially fill the same role in both factions, so it seems almost natural to compare them.

[paradox]

Guys, it's obvious he wants to be miserable and hate the judicator. That's fine. Let him. No point trying to reason with someone who is unwilling to.
Go on and enjoy plotting what you're going to do with it. Haters will hate til you win games with things they say suck. Then 12 months from now they'll say they knew all along.
Don't be a meta sheep, and don't marry yourself to your theorymachine.

[Murphy's lawgiver.]

That analogy makes no sense. It's not even the same thing. None of Cygnar's models are so bad that they can't be used. The problem is more the points cost makes it hard to use all of them in the same list. Cygnar stuff tends to cost a lot. That's why its hard to really see Cygnar's synergy in full effect outside of theme forces. It's absolutely there though.

Don't you think the points cost doesn't matter when we are talking about synergy? Of course, if you play only non-limit-FA games with no points cost it's super effective. That's why cheap solo and support units are for, and cygnar isn't drowning in cheap support/solo, nor playing it.
I'm pretty happy there's limitation in this game...

Covering Fire is a good ability, okay. But what with that "insanely good"? Have you ever played versus Covering fire? It kills infantry, sure, but there's more than one-wound low armoured infantry in this game i think. Plus it's damage you can play with, and avoid.

I was talking more about the Stormwalls ability to smash jacks and consequently kill infantry at the same time with electroleap.

120mm base. That's it. How to have good charge range when there's actually terrain feature and a whole army to travel through to charge key models?
So if you are able to charge key jacks and kill important (let be honest : if you fry some zealots, well that's sad, but not a game ender) trooper, you are playing versus someone who did a BIG mistake, and I don't wan't to bet my games on other's mistake to win.

I'm not saying the Stormwall isn't a good model. I'm just saying it's not the Wonder-SuperSayan-Hulk-GameEnder model you are trying to sell us.
And i'm also saying the Judicator it's not a piece of (pricey) scrap, but a cool model with good ability.

Ps for Paradox :

[Baensidhe]

Would it have killed them to give me 10" sprays instead of 8"?

Baensidhe
Official drink of the Protectorate: Haterade

[Lanz]

I was talking more about the Stormwalls ability to smash jacks and consequently kill infantry at the same time with electroleap.

You do realize that will rarely ever happen right? What's most likely is that the electro-leap would let you kill close-proximity support models like Choir, Mechaniks, etc, but combat infantry generally have few reasons that they need to be that close to a warjack within charge range of a Stormwall.

That's like saying that Bloodbath on the Scythean is an amazing anti-infantry rule because it lets it kill a bunch of infantry when it goes after heavies. Or the Avatar's Flame Burst. It doesn't happen very often.

That analogy makes no sense. It's not even the same thing. None of Cygnar's models are so bad that they can't be used. The problem is more the points cost makes it hard to use all of them in the same list. Cygnar stuff tends to cost a lot. That's why its hard to really see Cygnar's synergy in full effect outside of theme lists. It's absolutely there though.

That is such a shallow point to make that I would have thought it a joke if it wasn't being used in this context. How can the Cygnar stuff be even comparable if its so expensive? How can you even consider them even when in a normal list, Protectorate will be able to have more actual synergistic models on the table? Not to mention that Protectorate Synergy is generally better. There's almost nothing Cygnar has access to in Synergy terms that protectorate doesn't beat with it's own synergy. Most of it is both cheaper and stronger.

Plus the Stormwall and Judicator essentially fill the same role in both factions, so it seems almost natural to compare them.

No, they don't fill the same role. In order for them to fill the same role, the factions would have to have the exact same warjacks and warjack tricks, and therefor be asking for the same performance out of their colossal. They do not. We don't need the Judicator to fill the same roles that Cygnar will ask the Stormwall to fill. It will be supported by different models, and fighting alongside different warjacks to a different end result. That aside, in the end, Protectorate treats all their warjacks differently from Cygnar anyways.

[paradox]

Ps for Paradox :

Le Sigh. You can't save people from themselves.

[Murphy's lawgiver.]

Le Sigh. You can't save people from themselves.

Well, Menoth told us we can burn them to ensure salvation for their soul, but i'm a kind person when i'm not wearing my flamethrower.

[Soulblighter]

Guys, it's obvious he wants to be miserable and hate the judicator.

And yet I never once said I hated the Judicator, just that im aware of its limitations. I fully intend on buying a Judicator and using it in my lists. What paradox likes to do is put words in peoples mouths. And he cant handle it when people have opinions that differ from his own. What he needs to do is get over himself, learn to accept other people's opinions, and make posts that actually contribute to the discussion instead of belittling other people.

[paradox]

Hyperion has the most boxes of any Colossal (64) plus it's field generator. It's also rocking DEF10 and Retribution has access to Defender's Ward. Why is the Protectorate's Colossal punished for Defender's Ward but not Retribution's?

Incorrectly cites rules in support of judicator being "punished."

I would rank them:
1) Stormwall
2) Stormwall
3) Galleon
4) Conquest
5) Hyperion
6) Judicator
7) Kraken

Personal bias and hyperbole shown in offered rankings.

Why? Theyre handcannons with AOEs and can fire twice. Thats way better than the 8" flamers on the Judicator which arnt even particularly useful because of the lack of virtuoso or weapons platform.

Bias shown in unbalanced comparison. Counting only positives of non-judicator secondary weapons, complete failure to mention any benefits of auto-fire SP weapons, including RAT, choir, vassal or even actually acknowledging that they are SPs.

Most of the Colossals dont do much that their respective factions couldnt do seperately. The Judicator certainly does nothing that Protectorate cant do with other combinations of models. Thats not really the point of Colossals or the criteria by which their effectiveness should be measured. The fact is the Stormwall is vastly better than any of the other Colossals. Both in base stats and in terms of buffs that can be applied. Snipe on a Stormwall is just downright scary.

Admitting bias.

Compared to Judicator...
+1 SPD, +1 RAT, +2DEF, -4 boxes
Better at range, its guns are higher POW and more accurate
And with snipe all its guns can fire at 14"-18" (compared to Judicator's 8"-14" for accurate shots)
Better in melee since it gets electroleap.
Better at board control because of covering fire.
Oh and if that wasnt enough it gets lightning pods which are quite good.

For only 1 point more than the Judicator... The Stormwall really is the best Colossal by a huge margin.

Dont get me wrong I like the Judicator, despite my bashing it, I just dont think PP put as much thought into it as the Stormwall. its superstructure system (+1 focus) just seems unimaginative and lazy to me. Where the Lightning Pods are a very thematic and awesome addition to the Stormwall.

If you can get past Protectorate being the red-headed stepchild of warmachine then you can certainly find uses for the Judicator. Its very good at holding objectives since its basically an immovable object you can put no-shooty on. Opponents will find it virtually impossible to get a Judicator off an objective once its parked there. Its certainly going to have an impact on scenario play.

Request for clarity goes far beyond what qualifies as "base stats." Ie, SPD/MAT/RAT. Also continues to show bias by refusing to acknowledge high probability of choir and other in faction boosts that will be a common occurance in actual gameplay.

Our warjacks cant be knocked down anyway with the Covenant.

The Judicator really only has two advantages. The first is that you pay a few less points for the whole weapons package than if you bought Redeemers, Repenters, etc... seperately, although this comes at a huge hit to survivability. The second is the ability to not be moved out-of-turn, but that comes at the cost of not being able to use enliven.

I think the Judicator is probably worth 18 points for its capabilities. But the Stormwall should definitely cost 20-21 points. Weve already gone over everything the Stormwall does better and its easily worth 2-3 points more.



I dont believe that Arcane Shield is required on the Stormwall at all times (ARM19 with 56 boxes is highly resilient). Plus you cant buy choirs in 0.5 increments so its costing us at least 2 points for a min Choir. Also the Stormwall gets 2-3 points of freebies over the Judicator. There is no way that list of advantages the Stormwall has over the Judicator only amounts to 1 point.

I dont believe that different factions are apples and oranges because the whole purpose of having a point system is so two players can field armies of approximately equal value. If the point system was skewed differently for each faction then it wouldnt work.

Contradictory statements within same post, with viewpoint based on which faction is being discussed in a given part of post. Also express refusal to acknowledge difficulties with cross-faction comparisons.\

The Stormwall is better in melee because it has electroleap on its fists as well as the ability to drop lightning pods which automatically hit. It also has a better charge threat range. Yes its true the Choir can make the Judicator better in melee, but I think thats a huge risk, because without no-shooty the Judicator becomes a fire magnet and every ranged attack will hit it.

Also the Stormwall has way more offense in faction than the Judicator. The higher power and longer range on its weapons gives it a way more consistent ranged damage output. And Cygnar has plenty of ways to further increase its ranged effectiveness as well.

Completely discounts choir as a "huge risk."
Give no credit to judicator and all credit to stormwall. Incorrectly cites stormwall has higher-POW (note failure to credit any faction bonus/buff for judocator, but give all faction bonuses/buffs to stormwall)

-------------------------------------------------
I don't need you to say it outright. I can gather your take from your own words over the course of the discussion. I'm perfectly OK if you disagree with me, so long as you back it up with actual, reasonable agruments and logic. Your repeatedly biased comparisons and complete discounting in Menoth faction buffs coupled with complete assumption of Cygnar faction buffs show that you just want to hate it.

You've made exactly one post partially admitting the benefits of choir and possible upswings of judicator, followed by denials of exactly those benefits.

I am not fooled.

[Bishop84]

Just saw a Bronzeback take down a Stormwall at full boxes in one charge today. Saw another one go down when a Templar and Reckoner went to town on it. While stacks of boxes look good these guys will go down when hit hard.

I charged one with a Battle Hymned 4 Focus Avatar and 3 focus Reckoner the other night. Took out everything but the S and C. While they CAN be taken out in one turn, it's not a foregone conclusion that even if you apply the proper tools that the job will get done. Dice will see to that.

You do realize that will rarely ever happen right? What's most likely is that the electro-leap would let you kill close-proximity support models like Choir, Mechaniks, etc, but combat infantry generally have few reasons that they need to be that close to a warjack within charge range of a Stormwall.

Heh, losing support is WORSE than losing some combat troops. I would much rather lose some Errants or Flameguard to Electro-leap than Choir.

[Soulblighter]

Incorrectly cites rules in support of judicator being "punished."

Yeah I already admitted I made a mistake regarding the Hyperion. Im not that familiar with the Retribution warcasters since no one plays Retribution around here. However Defender's Ward is the obvious reason why the Judicator is DEF8 and not DEF10 like the other Colossals, so im right that the Judicator is being punished for it.

Give no credit to judicator and all credit to stormwall. Incorrectly cites stormwall has higher-POW

Um it does have higher POW. Big Guns = POW15. Rocket Pods = POW9. Lets be realistic youre not going to hit directly with effective RAT3 (unless its a Khador jack). Flamethrowers = POW14. So yeah POW15 is higher than POW9 or POW14, so its correctly cited.

Completely discounts choir as a "huge risk."
Give no credit to judicator and all credit to stormwall. Incorrectly cites stormwall has higher-POW (note failure to credit any faction bonus/buff for judocator, but give all faction bonuses/buffs to stormwall)

The Choir is factored in. Stormwall still has higher POW on its guns. So not sure what youre talking about...

The Judicator can have higher POW in melee, and Ive already discussed the risk in dropping no-shooty when it only has DEF8. Every POW14+ ranged attack in the opponents army will target the Judicator the moment you drop no-shooty. CRAs in particular are one of the Judicator's worst enemies since they can be CRA'd while in melee. Of course if there are no scary enemy guns in range, by all means drop no-shooty...

I havent discounted the Choir at all, in fact I think no-shooty on the Judicator is what makes it one of the better defensive Colossals in the game. But when it comes to offensive Colossals I do feel the Stormwall is the complete package. Its weapons are incredibly versatile and can kill both warjacks and infantry, it gets amazing zone control, and the lightning pods have great utility; like being able to disrupt.

[Lanz]

Heh, losing support is WORSE than losing some combat troops. I would much rather lose some Errants or Flameguard to Electro-leap than Choir.

My point was that when one generally talks about 'infantry killing' the topic is usually not squishy support models. Electro-leap while hitting warjacks is good for killing support models, but it's rarely going to be applied to combat infantry.

Though, all things considered, proper order of operations mitigates even Electro-leap. Vassals can stay 5" away, out of Electro-leap range, and choir can activate before the 'jack, so that the 'jack can make sure it's more than 4" from whatever choirboy buffed it.

Um it does have higher POW. Big Guns = POW15. Rocket Pods = POW9. Lets be realistic youre not going to hit directly with effective RAT3 (unless its a Khador jack). Flamethrowers = POW14. So yeah POW15 is higher than POW9 or POW14, so its correctly cited.

You can go ahead and pretend the POW is whatever you want, but don't expect that anyone is going to follow your reasoning for it. Assuming the judicator is so unlikely to hit that it can't even be considered a possibility is just daft. It's hitting up to DEF 13 on averages with a boost.

[paradox]

Um it does have higher POW. Big Guns = POW15. Rocket Pods = POW9. Lets be realistic youre not going to hit directly with effective RAT3 (unless its a Khador jack). Flamethrowers = POW14. So yeah POW15 is higher than POW9 or POW14, so its correctly cited.

See what I mean?

[Bishop84]

Though, all things considered, proper order of operations mitigates even Electro-leap. Vassals can stay 5" away, out of Electro-leap range, and choir can activate before the 'jack, so that the 'jack can make sure it's more than 4" from whatever choirboy buffed it.

The Vassal should have no problem, buy saving the choirboy presumes the Judicator isn't already locked into combat or wants to aim as seems to be a very common assumption.

[Lanz]

The Vassal should have no problem, buy saving the choirboy presumes the Judicator isn't already locked into combat or wants to aim as seems to be a very common assumption.

I was mostly speaking in general warjack terms, not the Judicator specifically.

As far as the Judicator goes, I'd be inclined to take more choir than usual to make sure it has spares.

[Soulblighter]

Assuming the judicator is so unlikely to hit that it can't even be considered a possibility is just daft. It's hitting up to DEF 13 on averages with a boost.

So give the Stormwall the same benefit from focus. Stormwall hits DEF13 on average without a boosted attack roll. Which means it can spend that focus on boosting damage. Again the Stormwall is doing more damage.

[Vinsklortho]

I always considered Trollbloods the "synergy faction" and Menoth the "denial faction".

[maddermax]

I always considered Trollbloods the "synergy faction" and Menoth the "denial faction".

Denial and Support (especially jack support). We tend to have far more pure support models in our lists than others do, and while much of that support does denial, our support is generally pretty versatile. While we don't have more models to help us than other factions, ours tends to be far more ubiquitous - Choir and Vassals are always there, Covenant is extremely common. While other armies have models that are very useful as support pieces (sea witch, Strangeways, Journeyman warcaster, ect), those things are far more situational in armies than our support pieces are, and are more akin to Roven and Reclaimers in how often they're taken. What we don't have is unit synergy for the most part, along the lines of the Winter Guard Death Star, or Bane thralls w/UA and Tartarus or Marshalled jacks on Gun Mage UA.

We don't get the unit synergy that other armies can get, but our ever present jack support definitely makes us a heavy support faction. So, with a number of casters who tend towards denial, and a lot of support pieces (who also do denial) which almost always show up, we tend to be the Denial and Support faction.

[Murphy's lawgiver.]

So give the Stormwall the same benefit from focus. Stormwall hits DEF13 on average without a boosted attack roll. Which means it can spend that focus on boosting damage. Again the Stormwall is doing more damage.

-Stormwall doesn't Have vassal to shoot more (eHaley is a caster, don't even try to compare a warcaster to a 2 points support model who can be fielded 2 times)
-Stormwall doesn't pop more aoe when it shoot (talk about dealing whith infantry while attacking the target)

-Stormwall can hit a def 13 model without boost. Allright. let's see that : Judicator : Pow 14 + choir (2) = 16; (16+7) + (16+7) = 46.
Plus a shoot from the vassal : 16 + 7 = 23 (assuming you hit. If you don't, it's 2 pow 9 aoe).
Stormwall : Pow 15 + boosted damage roll = (15+10) + (15+10) = 50.

Oh yeah, so much more damage. And i don't even calculate the pow of the secondarys aoe.

[Fish76]

I charged one with a Battle Hymned 4 Focus Avatar and 3 focus Reckoner the other night. Took out everything but the S and C. While they CAN be taken out in one turn, it's not a foregone conclusion that even if you apply the proper tools that the job will get done. Dice will see to that.

...and then? Seriously, what went down next turn?

[computertrucker]

-Stormwall doesn't Have vassal to shoot more (eHaley is a caster, don't even try to compare a warcaster to a 2 points support model who can be fielded 2 times)
-Stormwall doesn't pop more aoe when it shoot (talk about dealing whith infantry while attacking the target)

-Stormwall can hit a def 13 model without boost. Allright. let's see that : Judicator : Pow 14 + choir (2) = 16; (16+7) + (16+7) = 46.
Plus a shoot from the vassal : 16 + 7 = 23 (assuming you hit. If you don't, it's 2 pow 9 aoe).
Stormwall : Pow 15 + boosted damage roll = (15+10) + (15+10) = 50.

Oh yeah, so much more damage. And i don't even calculate the pow of the secondarys aoe.

Thats if you hit with the judicator, which will be a lot less common. Both have their rolls, and I think I will enjoy each of them. That being said with Menoth being my main faction, I plan to purchase a single judicator, with Cygnar being a faction I am toying around with I plan to purchase 2 stormwalls. Why? Because they're that good.

[Murphy's lawgiver.]

Why? Because they're that good.

Of course it's a good model (even if i think it'll be less efficient vs Horde).
But stop saying it's a world-ender model, that's a nonsense.
I'm not sure two collossals worth their points. You really need to backup your model, and it lack flexibility.

Have you tried playing with 2 yet (or maybe with 1) ?

[SnakeEyes]

I always considered Trollbloods the "synergy faction" and Menoth the "denial faction".

This. ^ Some of our denial is based on us getting rewarded for the enemy destroying our stuff, which gives the illusion of synergy (or blurs the line).

With Hordes animii, I'd say Skorne, Trollbloods, and Circle are inherently more "synergy" than any WM faction. Trollbloods and Skorne leading the pack in that group.