bane thralls, how to use them?

[Teej]

okay i would consider myself a newbie player ive been playing cryx for about 6 months, but havent really "played" them as much, i have the occassional game with my friend, and a few at the store, no more than 10 - 12 games in total, i dont feel like ive grasped the concept of cryx, but most of all i havent understood what makes bane thralls so great, after playing a game today against my friends legion army, i managed to kill 1 heavy warbeast with them, and damage another warbeast but it healed anyways, i have the UA, and BLT and i also managed to make 3 more banes using BLT's ability but after all that i feel that they didnt earn back their points, and i hear alot from this site that a max unit of banes, UA and BLT is a good 15pt investment but i just dont know how to use them, i looked through this site and got an idea of what they can do, i just dont know how to apply it on the table. any help with the problem would be greatly appreciated,

[Sanctjud]

Bane Thralls, Apply Directly to the Forehead, Bane Thralls.

Seriously: You need to space them appropriately, you need to use them in waves.
Tartarus is more about Curse support rather than Bane Creation.
Then there is threat saturation and using them as more of a main-line due to their relative durability and as the counter-attack due to a meh threat range (before Curse).

[theHman]

What Sanctjud said.

If you're going after a heavy, I usually charge it with 3 thralls - sometimes 4 if the ARM or DEF is high.

[ZombieWar]

lube and insert

[DavidRM]

By "space them appropriately":
* In a line, no closer than 2" to avoid most AOE's/blast damage (2.5" might be better).
* In ranks no closer than 3.5" to avoid reach models from engaging the second rank.

[RJM]

but most of all i havent understood what makes bane thralls so great, after playing a game today against my friends legion army

Well, that's your problem in this specific instance. Legion is pretty much kryptonite to us. They pretty much cheaty-cheat-face ignore all the rules we really like to depend on for delivering our nastiness across the board, and have the ranged options to make it hurt while doing so.

[ZombieWar]

vs legion the accepted tactic is: no lube and insert

[Deo85]

Don't forget to put 2-3 banes pending on Unit size in the front row to be bait to counter charge or get the first charge in

[ZombieWar]

baiting legion is a very good tactic. i like having a min unit of bloodgorgers (depending on the caster of course) to draw them in while also denying tramples. bane thralls are one of the best counter punches in the game as far as pure damage output per point is concerned.

[Scotty]

Don't get to discouraged killing off a warbeast is always a good thing and almost equals their cost in points in addition to taking fury generation options away from the warlock so that's always a good thing vs legion, but yeah once you get the spacing down so you don't lose the whole unit before they get to counter attack your golden.

[Island]

If they don't feel great, try something else. Knights are better anyway. And Satyxes. Who knows, maybe you'll like drudges. :P

[Teej]

Well, that's your problem in this specific instance. Legion is pretty much kryptonite to us. They pretty much cheaty-cheat-face ignore all the rules we really like to depend on for delivering our nastiness across the board, and have the ranged options to make it hurt while doing so.

you might be right about them being the anti-cryx army, i had the thought of being a complete jerk and purchasing an all incorp army, but there must be a way around it.

[Teej]

Don't get to discouraged killing off a warbeast is always a good thing and almost equals their cost in points in addition to taking fury generation options away from the warlock so that's always a good thing vs legion, but yeah once you get the spacing down so you don't lose the whole unit before they get to counter attack your golden.

haha it didnt feel like alot when his warlocks feat is to revive a fallen warbeast lol

[Admiral_Arzar]

If they don't feel great, try something else. Knights are better anyway. And Satyxes. Who knows, maybe you'll like drudges. :P

Calling BS on this. Bane Thralls are the best infantry in Cryx (despite how much I love Raiders). No other infantry unit we can field inspires so much fear and hate, and that's for good reason.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

How to use Banes:

Turn 1 - Run
Turn 2- Run
*OR*
Turn 2 - Debuff targets (if possible), Advance (or Charge) BLT, Curse, Charge with banes
Turn 3 - repeat


That's the gist of it. Sometimes it helps to have a speedier unit run ahead of them to draw heavies within range of your charge next turn. Also note, charging with them is very much preferred over advancing and attacking. Don't get too close before you commit.

You can also:

-Run them up beside targets that need an armor debuff
-Sacrifical Strike with them
-Pair them with both Goreshades for extra bane-goodness
-create a semi-reliable tarpit with to stop some kill/move shenanigans

I would avoid:

-going after high def infantry
-attacking anything above DEF 12 without a buff/debuff
-using them to screen LOS

[Sanctjud]

Calling BS on this.

You are 'calling BS' on the suggestion of trying something different if the Bane Thralls don't feel great for an individual...



or the about Bane Knights being "better"?

You know he is entitled to his opinions, calling it BS seems a bit extreme.
Bane Thralls are not the end all and be all of Cryx. They are a solid unit, but so are the other options.

I prefer Bane Knights over Bane Thralls as well, mainly due to my valueing Reach and in-built Ghostly, and that my meta generally doesn't care about Stealth and I don't like how tough works to use it in my army.

Granted Island could have explained why he felt the way he did about Bane Knights, but his suggestion is sound overall.

[ZombieWar]

depends on what the goal is, Satyxis Raiders have no competition in WM as a jamming unit. Ask a cygnar player which he is more scared of.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

I think I speak Admiral_Arzar. Allow me to interpret. . .

"Bane Thralls are the overall best infantry unit in the faction when taking into consideration all applications. They may not be the best for a specific application or favored playstyle. I have found this to be true through careful analysis, as well as anecdotally. Some proof of my findings is offered in the negative perceptions of bane thralls by most opponents."

[Sanctjud]

I think I speak Admiral_Arzar. Allow me to interpret. . .

"Bane Thralls are the overall best infantry unit in the faction when taking into consideration all applications. They may not be the best for a specific application or favored playstyle. I have found this to be true through careful analysis, as well as anecdotally. Some proof of my findings is offered in the negative perceptions of bane thralls by most opponents."

I call BS. The Withershadow combine is the best infantry in Cryx.

[ZombieWar]

^^^ this is true.

[Maddtrippin]

I call BS. The Withershadow combine is the best infantry in Cryx.

And the reason you think this?

[ZombieWar]

have you ever used them before?
14/16
stealth
5 life
WM against jacks
a DD that gives souls
free upkeep
one of very few models with an AE dispel that hurts the caster
super awesome models
a reroll for you or a forced reroll for them

did i miss anything?

[Maddtrippin]

No you got it right, I was just asking for the sake of the discussion. If someone says Unit [X] > All and that's it, the discuss cannot progress. If someone says unit [Y] > unit [X] because of [a], [b] and [c], then we all benefit.

[usbprime]

IMO it's all about preferance.......i prefer my knights, but purely because i try to maneuver them to where my opponent gets a little cocky with his caster, and ghostly charge 4 of them into reach ignoring free strikes........catches alot of people off guard. But all our infantry is situational......thralls are good for the high armor model......the proverbial club to the face. I also use 1 as a sacrificial pawn, run him to where dark shroud will effect something that my ripjaw can charge in an eat.

[Sanctjud]

And the reason you think this?

Just saying, you missed the point of my post... The key to that post is the smiley face in relation to the posts before that

At usbprime, just making sure you know ghostly =\= incorporeal.

[Island]

Calling BS on this.

Cryx is spoiled with great units. Maybe he'll like one of the other great units better than thralls, that's all. The best unit is always the one you like the most (unless you like drudges, in which case I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. :P).

[Sanctjud]

Drudges are OP...that's right, you heard me! OP, as in overtly pathetic

[usbprime]

I didn't say charge through models.......so yes I know that ghostly is not incorporeal.......in fact I think ghostly is a much better rule. My latest tactic is changing my knights up leaving like 1/2" between each of their bases, and next round charge the kraken, and he reaches between the bases, and through any holes that my opponent opeded, and charge (or sometimes just walk) my banes passed what models are left for the caster kill.

[legendaryrat]

Which kinda sucks. You'd think a unit with built in tough would be awesome. Mabye if they get a standard bearer sometime soon that gives them something op like berserk lulz.

[max2323]

I call BS. The Withershadow combine is the best infantry in Cryx.

Word...Straight up word.

[Teej]

baiting legion is a very good tactic. i like having a min unit of bloodgorgers (depending on the caster of course) to draw them in while also denying tramples. bane thralls are one of the best counter punches in the game as far as pure damage output per point is concerned.

reading over all theses post this one has really interested me, ive been doing research on legion, because i find it odd even though i have had very little experience this legion player just picked up and played last week, we had 3 games, 2 of which ive won 1 by assassinating his caster, and the other one was real close because i only had Pdenny left he had just lost his striders and he only had 2 swordsmen left out of his 10, he still had a fully functional angelius, all of his solos were alive, and his warlock rhyas was still at full health, only reason i won was he maxed out his warbeast trying to hit Pdenny and he placed his warlock in a very bad position 4" away from denny, and she had camped on her focus last turn so ARM 21, when it was my turn i just charged up to rhyas, boosted everything, to hit and damage, thankfully Pdenny's weapon lowered rhyas' DEF by 3 so i could hit more easily and i won. in the last game i was just beaten down into submission, sorry i got carried away but if it had only taken 3 games for him to grasp the concept of legion, i am now very familiar that my previous tactics ive applied to other factions do not work on legion mostly depending on stealth i am interested in how to "bait" legion properly, after our matches he commented saying cryx sucked and that bane thralls are just an expensive crappy unit, and now im very motivated to show him that cryx isnt a pushover faction. so any tips that will teach me how to bait will be appreciated.

[Scottl1]

I can't tell you how many times I have used a "juicy" target to bait people in so that I could counter charge with banes or whatever to shred they sent.

My usual sacrifical lamb is deathjack or tartarus because their reputation. People want them dead as fast as possible so I help them out by setting up an ambush. You need to be careful when you do that though since youre taking a big gamble. I tend to use terrain pieces like buildings, walls, or their own speel like admonition to herd them where I can countercharge with minimal losses.

[SpiderBite]

I only take BaneThralls if I have already taken BaneKnights, who I prefer for their mobility and speed.
BaneThralls I use to take down/debuff the heavy targets. Steal is *meh* in my meta, tough is never something you should depend on, they get slowed by terrain, do not have reach, and cannot ignore freestrikes. Yes, support can be taken to help mitigate these, but support can be taken to buff up the Knights as well. It's really an apples/oranges thing.
Tarts, I just use him for the Curse to get more movement and better hittin'. Actively trying for a DeathToll is actively trying to get him killed.


Oh, at half a point each with 2x decent attacks or one yummy Combostrike . . . Mechanithralls are the 'best' unit in the game, not just Cryx so PPPPPBBBTTTTH!

[various]

They also work well with anything that can Harpoon, i've scrapped countless 'Jacks by reeling them in and then charging them with Banethralls. It helps get around their low speed and works well with a min unit without the UA (which you probably want to add to a unit that you're going to use more aggressively). All the rest has already been said. Have only just got BLT, but have already found him to be far more useful for Curse than creating more Banes, Curse really supercharged the Banes.

[milothewise]

i am now very familiar that my previous tactics ive applied to other factions do not work on legion mostly depending on stealth i am interested in how to "bait" legion properly

Bane Thralls are at their worst vs. Legion - just 12/15 infantry that can't hit Angeli and won't ever be in charge range to begin with .

Baiting Legion is generally trickier than most, because their movement shenanigans are just as dirty as ours (arguably more so). Slipstream, Repulse, pVayl, etc. Expect to get hit first. Generally, though, Legion runs pretty beast-heavy, and those beasts are expensive. Cryx pieces, generally, hit just as hard, but die faster and are many times cheaper. If you can play a trading game with them, do it. Operate under the assumption that they can kill pretty much anything they can get to, and position yourself to eat whatever did the killing. Layer your threats so they have to choose - "do I charge in to kill the one dangerous thing I can get to right now, or get charged/engaged and try again next turn?" Pretend you're a Cryx opponent, and just weather the initial storm. The attrition game is a good one for us against Legion, generally.

Spreading out is going to be hit-and-miss, since it protects you from Scather templates and sprays but makes it harder to bring your guys to bear when it's time to counter-charge. They really don't like to be swarmed, though, so that's often an option. If you just give them lots and lots of targets, they can't kill them all - RAT 4/5 is going to catch up with them eventually, even against McThralls. They also don't have a good answer to upkeeps, so Curse of Shadows, Parasite, Scything Touch, and Crippling Grasp will all go a long way towards making sure your hits count when you get them in.

[Scottl1]

I only take BaneThralls if I have already taken BaneKnights, who I prefer for their mobility and speed.
BaneThralls I use to take down/debuff the heavy targets. Steal is *meh* in my meta, tough is never something you should depend on, they get slowed by terrain, do not have reach, and cannot ignore freestrikes. Yes, support can be taken to help mitigate these, but support can be taken to buff up the Knights as well. It's really an apples/oranges thing.
Tarts, I just use him for the Curse to get more movement and better hittin'. Actively trying for a DeathToll is actively trying to get him killed.


Oh, at half a point each with 2x decent attacks or one yummy Combostrike . . . Mechanithralls are the 'best' unit in the game, not just Cryx so PPPPPBBBTTTTH!

If you're worried about pathfinder you can use saxon or one of the 3 casters with ghost walk. lol I mean if you use bk enough people will now not to hit the knights till they can kill the whole unit. Without vengeance they're just as slow as bane thralls.

[Sanctjud]

Saxon is 2 points that could have been something else.
It requires an additional activation.
Ghostly is superior (esp. with casters without the spell).
Dictating how the opponent reacts to Bane Knights (not shooting them) is a powerful tool...especially if you have 30 of them :3

[SpiderBite]

If you're worried about pathfinder you can use saxon or one of the 3 casters with ghost walk. lol I mean if you use bk enough people will now not to hit the knights till they can kill the whole unit. Without vengeance they're just as slow as bane thralls.

Sorry, you must'a missed the part where I said:

Yes, support can be taken to help mitigate these, but support can be taken to buff up the Knights as well. It's really an apples/oranges thing.

[Scottl1]

Saxon is 2 points that could have been something else.
It requires an additional activation.
Ghostly is superior (esp. with casters without the spell).
Dictating how the opponent reacts to Bane Knights (not shooting them) is a powerful tool...especially if you have 30 of them :3

If they dont all die before getting there sure. lol

[Sanctjud]

They are Undead
Bane knights dying is not always a bad thing, especially if the opponent commits to wiping them, with respect to the resources not killing your other things