Hyperion - is he any good?

**Tainted Coil** · 06-21-2012, 06:06 PM

Haven't seen many comments on him in these forums. I know the model is not out for a while but large bases are. Seems other factions are playtesting like crazy, why not Ret players? Anyone actually use this guy yet and have any real game experience?

I've only looked at his rules, and find him quite underwhelming, but still probably worth taking in one of your tournament lists, just by the strength of the Collosal rules alone. He does have a fare bit of Skornergy* going on though. My own thoughts:

*Skornergy = derisive term applied to Skorne because some of their buffs/rules cancel each other out. As a Skorne player I can tell you it's way overblown and comes up in like 1 in 10 games, and never if you understand how the buffs work.

General Collosal Rules

Here I think is where Hyperion helps us the most. He can't be moved outside his normal movement, which as any tournament player knows is game winning, or at least stops you from auto-losing. No more double angel push out of a zone to lose on cheap BS. The "slap" power attack makes up for his poor MAT and our lack of focus efficency by hitting many models in one swing, and at a high POW too (Sweep is basically thresher). The "punt" is a stationary slam, which we are generally familiar with now that the Banshee and AFG are out, and with Rahn to an extent as well. Knocking things down is always helpful. Mastershake wrote a great post on Locks which are going to make a big comeback with the high base STR these things have. I await the day I weapon lock the Avatar's sword and laugh as he swings his shield at nothing.

Beyond that, he is ARM19 which is rather nice, and has lots of boxes. Anyone using the Vyre jacks can attest they last a good deal longer than the Shyeel jacks, except maybe the Phoenix, so he kind of has the best of both worlds.

Hyperion Specific Rules

He has lots of shields, which he can heal for D3 with a focus. I expect this will be critical since we only have two chances to repair him, unlike other factions. Shame he didn't get a Phoenix field.

The main gun is pretty nice, althought Crit Consume seems redundant for us. We already have all the tools to crush masses of infantry, so I kind of feel this gun doesn't know what it wants to do for us. It will be nice the first time you drop it on Banes and kill a whole bunch and bypass the tough, but then you are 10" away and The Tard curses you and the rest of the unit kills you. 10" range is rough. It's tied to the generators, which is not a big deal as the other Collosals have their main weapon tied to the super structure, so we don't lose out there. The gun seems a perfect fit for Polarity Field, allowing you to shoot and not fear reprisals right away.

The Secondary Guns are ok, but with MAT5 won't be hitting much. Again, it's more infantry clearing in a faction that already clears infantry pretty well. I would have rather had Khador's creeping barrage for some board control, even if the POW is weak. Board control is something we mostly lack (Manticore excluded, of course).

Caster Synergies

Here is where the Skornergy comes to bite us.

Ravyn: Obviously her feat makes Hyperion a terror for one turn, and with Snipe he is a serious assassination piece. She is definitely one of the better casters to field him with, and at 50pts you don't have to change "the" Ravyn list all that much. Vortex stacks nicely with him, allowing Ravyn to wander around his base and boost his melee damage, but Locomotion is entirely useless. If Hyperion is your only jack you just gave up a great spell, which is unfortunate given how useful that spell is. Skornergy #1. I could see taking Lanyssa with Hyperion, and Veil could be nice to get her Prowl so she can set up Hunters Mark.

Garryth: His feat doesn't do a whole lot for Hyperion, although I suppose no placing could help you with locks. Death Sentence is awful nice with those guns, but it's hard to get it on juicy targets without an Arc Node, and that is more points on jacks with a caster that doesn't like them much. Gallows can pull things into gun range, but has the same Arc Node problem. Mirage is wasted on him, see Skornergy #2, but that mostly goes on a unit anyway so is not that big a deal. Doesn't seem to be much synergy here.

Kaelyssa: Her feat is clutch; no charges is really nice, although he doesn't get the stealth benefit. Skornergy #3. Witch Hound could be brutal with the main gun, although he won't get the move. Skornergy #4. Phantom Hunter and Banishing Ward are some of the best buffs we can give him, so I could see a lot of usefulness here, though Phantom Hunter less useful due to the large base. Arcane Reckoning is pointless since his DEF is so low. I like the idea of Hyperion with her because she gets one turn of board control with that feat, but she also likes an Arc Node, so it's a tough call. I often field three heavies with Kae, so it would actually save me points to trade 30pts of heavies for 18 + a Phoenix. Liking this one.

Rahn: Rahn offers him Polarity Shield, by far the best buff. Not getting charged makes you get more out of the guns, and makes Hyperion really hard to kill by stopping the auto boosting of a charge. Force Blast could be really interesting with a large base. Other than that Rahn offers him indirect buffs with TK/FH making it easier to hit things (though no TK on Hyperion; Skornergy again!), and Battlemages under his feat can easily knock things down and have the same effect. Also liking this one, but has the Arc Node problem again, and two Phoenix with Rahn is really good.

Vyros 1: Feat can help power him up easily, but that's about it. The feat is already pretty poor so I won't sweat this one. Bird's Eye is nice for shooting through other Collosal's(!) but we lose the 360 windwill arms. Vyros can easily flank with him though, which is pretty nice. Hallowed Avneger is a wasted spell. Skornergy #6? Ivioable Resolve is GREAT with him, and I always cast it on Vyros or a jack as is. ARM21 Hyperion is a wall of metal Ret has never had at our disposal. Mobility is useful, though the pathfinder is wasted. All told, another good home for Hyperion. Only one jack limits the usefulness of the feat, but flank with a huge base and ARM21 is solid.

Vyros 2: No experience with this guy and I don't like him. Feat is wasted on Hyperion, Skornergy #7, as is Easy Rider (#8). Deflection doesn't do much since his DEF is already so low. Synergy could make him a real monster, but you need other jacks to get it going. Even Griffon spam is a HUGE point investment combined with Hyperion. Vyros loses flank with him, which stinks. Seems a pretty poor choice to take Hyperion with this caster.

Ossyan: The feat is obvious, and 4 dice POW18 is gonna put a dent in any heavy, and maybe outright kill a lot of casters. The defensive portion of the feat helps prevent return fire from hurting him. Ossy's gun helps Hyperion hit better, and a 4 dice POW13 + a 4 dice POW18 could actually kill a lot of heavies in one round. Admonition is wasted (Skornergy #9), but I think you want Hypnos as well and Ossy can always use it on himself. Chronomancer has the usual issues, though with the ability to hit ton's of models with the sweep could be marginally better than normal, sort of. Quicken is nice for a turn 1 run to get into place, and later turn charges, though the DEF boost is mostly wasted. Good spell to cycle around. Shatter Storm on Hyperion is gonna be hilarious. AOE5 and Strafe guns that make models explode, and RFP. That includes his fists so this is a great way to remove certain models that can come back; such as Legion beasts with pThag or Saeryn, eGaspy, among others. Really not a bad choice here either.

Other Model/Unit Synergies

AFG: So many points between the two, but could be his best friend. AFG gives extra range in BtB, and can knock down targets for Hyperion to shoot easily. With Rahn your whole center can be immune to charges. The other shots stack in minor ways, adding to Hyperion's damage output in a round about manner.

Hypnos: Fists that makes jacks stationary. Stationary models are never engaged. Punch them, shoot with Hyperion. Ok Hypnos takes a POW9, BIG DEAL. A beast or jack hit by his gun can't get focus/be forced; combine with a weapon lock for hilarity.

Inivctors: They have flank, with a huge base that has reach. Need I say more?

Scyir: You need two jacks, but could solve his order of activation problem. Stick near Hyperion to get flank and use the drive on a different jack. Big point investment though.

Magister or Demon or Artificer or Mittens: Can bring things toward/away from Hyperion at your discretion, but whip snap won't work on him. Another Skornergy!

There are other minor synergies, but those seem the most obviously useful to me.

Conclusion

Hyperion has a lot of Skonergy going on, not working at all with our multiple out of activation movements. His guns are lackuster IMO, but not terrible by any means, just more of what we already do well. His fists are excellent and easily buffable to POW22, but his low MAT means he won't hit enough times. Has some pretty good caster synergies, but his generic Collosal rules seem to bring the most benefit to our faction. A big tough model that can't be moved is great for scenario play, something I know I have struggled with.

I give him a 'B' overall. Worth taking in one list, but not an auto-include, which is ok.

Anybody have any games under their belt to confirm?

**AJ the Ronin** · 06-21-2012, 07:35 PM

All the skornegy examples you mentioned are due to the colossal rules and is something that all factions have to deal with with their own colossals, it is not something exclusive to us. Skornegy with everyone that has a spell that grants out of activation movement or placement!

Now if we had a bunch of soul collection abilities then I would say that the starburst would be a case of skornegy. That's not the case 'though.

**Mavwick** · 06-21-2012, 07:36 PM

Still all theory. I've been testing more eVyros who wants Hyperion the least. A few off comments on the above ideas:

Garryth: He doesn't want a Heavy; he wants distractions. If someone is focused enough on a giant death machine with a POW18 AOE, they might ignore the little man behind it waiting to kill them.
Rahn: I like the AFG a lot as a mobile "fire base" for Rahn to stay safe from assassinations. Hyperion might fill this role alright, but I'd have to play with the points and see if he can fit in his two requisite Arc Nodes AND 18 more points of warjack in a balanced list.
Vyros: His feat is incredible for this thing. Each kill brings back one FOC, so take your 2 sets of D3 shots and boost each one. You could even start with the AOE and probably nab all 3 FOC he would want for the turn. +2ARM also takes this model to a new level of defense. Like Garryth above, Vyros also appreciates a good distraction to hide behind while waiting for an endgame flank.
Again, still theory, but I'm not convinced Ravyn or Ossyan wants to give up Discordia and neither is good at running two Heavies. I'd say ten points of Stormfall Archers are better for either Warcaster than the whole arsenal of Hyperion.

Also, just a nitpick of Skornmantics, but Skornegy is barely in anything above. Skornegy isn't something that simply doesn't work. Skornegy is something that is unquestionably worse thanks to another. Their UA that makes the unit untargetable by spells when the unit was only worth taking with specific buffs is a good example. Also acceptable uses are models that are inexplicably worse than they appear, like most Skorne who pick up a shield and forget how to fight or defend or, for us, Nayl.

**Xarian** · 06-21-2012, 07:41 PM

Buffs which don't do anything when targeting the Hyperion (like Admonition, Locomotion, and Whip Snap) aren't "Skornergy" - you can still target other models with those abilities, so nothing is wasted. The invisibility portion of Kaelyssa's feat is "Skornergy".

And Vyros2 with 2 Griffons lets you get ridiculously high P+S attacks with the Hyperion for a fairly small point investment. With a 9-point investment (2 Griffons + Arcanist), the Hyperion can scrap another Hyperion in one round of combat on average rolls (65 damage).

**Murkhadh** · 06-21-2012, 07:45 PM

I think he's going to make pVyross a legit caster, He will be replacing Nyss hunters in my Ravyn list at least initially, and I don't think he will ever be "bad" in a list.

that last phrase alone makes this not Skornergy.

And your examples of Skornergy, aren't skornergy.

**Nafael** · 06-21-2012, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by Murkhadh

I think he's going to make pVyross a legit caster, He will be replacing Nyss hunters in my Ravyn list at least initially, and I don't think he will ever be "bad" in a list.

And your examples of Skornergy, aren't skornergy.

...what's skornergy then?

**Murkhadh** · 06-21-2012, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Nafael

...what's skornergy then?

The above example was good, a UA that makes a unit them un-targetable by spells and that unit is really only good with a certain buff on it.

**Soylent** · 06-21-2012, 08:49 PM

I think you're missing one big thing about crit consume. It's not that it can take out a pie plates worth of infantry without rolling damage, it's more about RFP which can put a dent in many shenanigans out there.

**Murkhadh** · 06-21-2012, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Soylent

I think you're missing one big thing about crit consume. It's not that it can take out a pie plates worth of infantry without rolling damage, it's more about RFP which can put a dent in many shenanigans out there.

Even if the gun doesn't crit, its the highest pow gun in the game and it had a 5 inch template. Pow 9 blast damage kills even bane thralls.