Mercs vs. the Stormwall(s)

[Khediv]

There's a 50 point, one list only Steamroller Tournament in a month in our club I'm going to attend.
There about sixteen players, three of them are Cygnarans with four Stormwalls (yes, one of them got two of those). So, that's a good chance to meet one or two of those colossals on the table.

I nearly got the whole merc range to choose from (still waiting for my two merc heavy warjacks kits plus the Rocinante upgrade). My favourite casters with my favourite contracts/tiers for those are (not necessarily in that order):
Ashlynn (Highborn), Gorten (Tier 4), Durgen (Highborn), McBain (4 Star) & Shae (Tier 4)

I've played also all of the other casters, but not so often.

Now I'm wrapping my head around a good allcomer list with a good stand vs. collossals, especially the Stormwall. Maybe I'm too psychical daunted, but nothing I came up with pleases me.

Sure, I want to deal with the colossal, so, I need heavy hitters, armor debuff and an upkeep eraser (yeah, eEiryss, I know), but I just can't decide on the complete arrangement of the merc menu. I fear that any warjack I could send against the Stormwall will get disrupted before it could do much damage, and infantry (even the Forgeguard) will die in or has to circumvent surpressing fire areas.
And casters like Ashlynn or Shae are seriously in danger to be fried alive.

I really would like to hear some good advice, thoughts, maybe some example lists for inspiration...

...or a kick in the a** from my fellow mercs for being such a wussy.

Thank you in advance for that...

[Dashwood]

I've been trying to figure this one out myself, but more in terms of Ashlynn and Shae. Like was said in the Rhulic thread, though, the Stormwall can only handle so many opponents at once, and we have some good and cheap can opener 'jacks and units against its ARM 19 (22 w/ Jr). When making your list, a simple combined arms force that you can dedicate to the Stormwall would work--Charge it with 2 Nomads, hit it with a Mule marshalled by the Amethyst Rose Gun Mages, and rush in your Forgeguard. It can only fire one lightning prong for disruption, after all, so it'll have to pick.

Take Aiyana to slap it with a Kiss, Taryn to remove it from LOS so you can snipe any Jrs/solos/casters using it as a shield, Gorman to strike it with Black Oil (or be Public Enemy #1 so your opponent gets so focused on him that all your other Stormwall-killers can do their work). This is at least the theory I'll be running with when I inevitably face one, and the best part is that these are mostly units I use regularly anyway in my Highborn, just re-purposed.

[PG_Devilsquid]

Gorman DeWolf and Black Oil.


Why destroy what you can negate?

[Canuberon]

Because the SW ignores stealth with his lightning pods and no Cygnar player would let Gorman get close enough.

[Centa]

Forget about Gorman, when you have to face Stormwall.

Stormwall can lay down his covering fire templates within 10" and Gorman can throw his grenade 6". He will not survive to enter that template. And a threadrange of 11" is not enough to go around. If you aim to flank with Gorman, all he has to do is to place one of these two templates directly between his Stormwall and Gorman at max range. And the second in front of your melee unit which want to charge him next turn. With a single template he might not be able to hold back every model, but at least the half of the unit.

If you play a caster with snipe and/or DougalMacNaile it might be possible to deliever the grenade, but if the cygnar player has access to snipe too you are screwed again.

Id rather go with Boomhowlers. Greygore can charge one of his own guys, and before he makes an attack call his rage howl. With a MAT and RAT of 4 the colossal will have some trouble to hit without boosting(Not sure if there has been an errata, but as far as i read rage howl, it will affect your own jacks too, coz the part with enemy is in the first sentence when its about model/unit). Thats a thread range of 15" when advancing, or 18" if you charge your own model. Greygore might have to enter the covering fire template coz his cmd is only 9". But with ARM16 and 8 wounds, your opponent will need a 12 to force a tough roll.

Another uncommon model you can use against Stormwall is Dirty Meg, with her Junker and his stall effect on hit you can lower the threadrange of the Stormwall (def 7 or 10 isnt such a big deal). In case of Dirty Meg the covering fire templates helps you with positioning. Move her almost in contact to the template and you will be in range as long as you do not choose the point scratching the 10" range of covering fire.

I would try a Gorten 4star list if you like him. His wall makes it impossible for Stormwall to charge your models, and with SoG his Warjack can do some serious damage against the Stormwall. Unfortunatly you cant move the Stormwall with Gortens feat, but you still lower his spd and rat by 3. With -3 rat from the feat and -2 from Greygores call you have a Cygnar (!) warjack with a RAT of 1, not beeing able to move in melee as long as your models are more then 4" away.

Add in WrongEye&Snackjaw with a Bull Snapper to increase your own ARM and eEiryss to drop the ARM of the colossal.

Just a fast try for a 50pts list, coz i am done at work and have to go home soon:

Gorten
-Driller
-Wroughthammer (awesome melee crit against colossals)
-Wyshnalyrr
-Reinholdt (mini SoP on his double barrel shot)

WrongEye
-Snackjaw
-Bull Snapper

eEiryss
max Boomhowler
max Nyss
A&H
Thor Steinhammer (just for repair and/or tune up)

[absent]

I killed the stormwall with a gorman rust bomb and 3 steelhead cav with flank on tuesday. It was a pita to deal with, but the second it died my opponent conceded victory. He dropped arcane shield because he had to charge in and needed full throttle, because he had so many points in one model he was struggling to contain my army and contest the scenario. It wasn't really that bad, though with ehaley it will be super mega awful to deal with, that is more just ehaley than stormwall. He has to be pretty close to disrupt as well, since the pod places completely within 10, and your base is 2", he has to get within 8" of your jack or so to get it, and it can only disrupt 1 jack unless you make an oopsie. Wrong eye and rorsch can't be disrupted too, so you might just have to grab a heavier list with a pair of heavy jacks and a minion lock. Steelhead cav were fine too, if you can prevent them from being blasted to death by the stormwall, but you could use them in that same type of mix and have a pretty good try at it, and again the second you kill it you likely won or are very close.

[absent]

I killed the stormwall with a gorman rust bomb and 3 steelhead cav with flank on tuesday. It was a pita to deal with, but the second it died my opponent conceded victory. He dropped arcane shield because he had to charge in and needed full throttle, because he had so many points in one model he was struggling to contain my army and contest the scenario. It wasn't really that bad, though with ehaley it will be super mega awful to deal with, that is more just ehaley than stormwall. He has to be pretty close to disrupt as well, since the pod places completely within 10, and your base is 2", he has to get within 8" of your jack or so to get it, and it can only disrupt 1 jack unless you make an oopsie. Wrong eye and rorsch can't be disrupted too, so you might just have to grab a heavier list with a pair of heavy jacks and a minion lock. Steelhead cav were fine too, if you can prevent them from being blasted to death by the stormwall, but you could use them in that same type of mix and have a pretty good try at it, and again the second you kill it you likely won or are very close.

[pattison]

Whoa absent! You did it twice! And the same way too, wow, that's truly impressive!

[baronvonchaos]

lol @ pattison

I have a Macbain Soldiers of Fortune list that works for just about anything. It's about getting in your face and smashing. I actually throw the Devil Dogs in more and more. Being able to CRA at 4" on their slug guns is nice. Also with Macbain you get countermeasure. Put that on Boomie and use Rage Howler and he can't shoot, and has decreased MAT. Since you can shoot an engaged colossal without penalty. Take advantage of the DD's behind Boomie and do 2 man CRA's (or 4 man if they have Arcane shield).

I just know I really need to get eEiryss. Yes, I don't own her yet. Get rid of that upkeep.

Since I don't have eEiryss, I use Orin to shut down spells (not as effective, but it works). Also if you branch into Highborne, Precursors in Morrow's name should be able to put the hurt on it. Take a look into Versh. Purgation and blessed. So he gets boosted attack and damage rolls against this model and ignores Def/Arm bonuses. Get A&H going and you have a quad iron that can mutilate a colossal.

[nicholas_342]

What is the power on the covering fire templates? Is it a 7"? If it is, then forge guard aren't in that much trouble from it. He has to roll at least a 10 on 2 dice to kill each dwarf. It's possible but the odds are against it. You can also spread some forge guard out behind your driller or rockram. This prevents the stormwall from placing one of it's disruption pods behind your main jack. Stick a bokur within 2 inches of your jack of choice so he can take that single shot from it's main gun allowing you to deliver your jack in one piece. It's a shame Ossrum won't be out by then because I still say he provides the best options for dwarves at least to kill off a colossal.

[Kenlen]

It's 12, so the forgeguard will be hurt badly moving through the templates since they are down to ARM 16 when moving.

If using Damiano on feat turn they'll be up to ARM 19, that should keep a good number of them alive.

With Ossrum under feat they'll be ARM 18 when moving, which is helpfull, but probably more importantly, they'll have a threat range of 11".

[lastspartacus]

Damiano, Bart, and Durgen are all certainly up to the task, simply with some unorthodox thinking though. Single wound infantry is not the way.

[Kenlen]

Aye. Best use of single wound infantry will be to clear the screen and open up charge lanes for the big hitters, but we should also mess it up with some shooting.

Strip off Arcane Shield (it will always have AS) with Elf on Chimney (wonder if she works for Santa? note to self, red cloak, white trim, black boots for eEyriss).

Kiss it with Ayiana, and the Nomad does straight DMG dice.

Gum it up with Boomhowlers' folk. Surrounding a huge base, they can even get enough bodies in to make their CMA worthwile.

I think there are plenty of options to take it down, neutralize it or go around it. Will it be difficult? Well, I hope so, it would be a bit sad if was too easy

[Mael]

I'm sorry, Bart? Ehh, I guess laying down all that shooting can cause quite a bit of damage. That thing really isn't going to be retaliating that strongly at range.

[lastspartacus]

Absolutely, from experience. After stripping off arcane shield for arm19, Galleon under Hotshot, assuming average amount of shots and dice, outshoots Stormwall. 20 damage, if in harpoon range this becomes 27, broadside and 34. Stormwall shooting arm19 galleon with its own boosted pow15s equals only 14 damage. But it will never be arm19, because broadsides cannot be dispelled. Galleon actually greatly threatens Stormwall, and has a nice advantage over it.

Edit: Durgen does it by harming then shooting the heck out of it, Damiano tier list actually manages it by running a halb into position then feating and sending a few cav and a jack at it. Both without eiryss, mercs just tough it out!

[Defenstrator]

Another factor to remember is that each covering fire template is confined to an arc. It can put two down in a wall directly in front of it, but of you are approaching on two different sides it either has to turn to face or just put down a sinks template per zone, which is a lot easier to get around.

[nicholas_342]

Has the whole covering fire template being confined to each arc been answered? Last time I looked at it the debate was still raging and it didn't look like an infernal was going to rule on it until the book came out. The pow 12 covering fire does suck. For some reason I was thinking that covering fire would be half the regular power giving heavy infantry a better chance. Oh well, if you have two full units, you won't be able to get them all.

[lastspartacus]

Not much of a debate, needs to keep it in the arc. Not sure if whole or just center has to be in it though.

And speak of the devil, opponent today just brought out the ehaley, 2 striders, stormwall and friends tier list. Ugh. Stay tuned for how Bart does

[sleet01]

Pretty sure that thread's going to get resolved "Covering Fire templates can go anywhere in LOS" since they are not attacks, and thus not subject to Field of Fire restrictions. So don't count your chickens too soon.

[lastspartacus]

That would be incredibly lame after the Bird's Eye nerf, to a worse colossal. So it makes sense, since its completely against what feels right

[lastspartacus]

Well, the game is over, and it only proved that dice cheat me even before the game begins. We rolled Destruction, and I did not realize what I meant with ehaley and 2 striders and stormwall I was unable under feat to even screen the objectives, but I can say with almost complete certainty that I would have won in another scenario. Galleon removed a side from Stormwall under Deceleration with a round of Hotshot cannon firing, without using the Harpoon, and the pow15s in return just couldnt meaningfully scratch the arm24. I felt really good until I realized what he was doing when he switched to blowing the objectives, and after that all I could do was watch.

I can say it did feel good to make such a top tier list squirm vs a lowly merc

[Khediv]

Thanks, so far, for the little brainstorming and theorymachine.

I've toyed with two list types and took inspiration from some of your advice.

First Highborn 50p.:

Drake MacBain(!) 6
Nomad 6
Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker 2
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) 6
Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer 2
Mule 8
Captain Sam MacHorne & the Devil Dogs (Sam and 9 Grunts) 7
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (Boomhowler and 9 Grunts) 9
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt 4
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution 3
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist 2
Ogrun Bokur 3
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord 2
Taryn di la Rovissi 2

@baronvonchaos
I'd love to use the "Soldiers of Fortune" Tier list after reading your advice with Boomhowler & Co, but you can't use them in that tier (and eEiryss either), so I went full Highborn with the obligatory "Gun Mage Team".

I miss Orin Midwinter in that list - normally an auto include with MacBain(!) - but the other solos seemed more useful vs. a colossal list/to bring my units into position/get a shot at the enemy caster/protect MacBain(!)...
The general tactic seems simple - armor bonus on the Nomad, Aiyana & Holt (and maybe Gorman) into position to debuff the armor of the colossal (in tandem with eEiryss), Boomhowler & Co with countermeasure and anti-warjack fellcall up front with Devil Dogs slug gun ready behind (Rhupert may help to get the positioning right), the Nomad joins in to deliver the hurt.
Taryn creates a chance for a quick caster kill.


Second Highborn 50 p.:

Gorten Grundback 7
Grundback Gunner 3
Ghordson Driller 6
Wroughthammer Rockram 8
Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker 2
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (Boomhowler and 9 Grunts) 9
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt 4
Steelhead Halberdiers (Leader and 9 Grunts) 6
Steelhead Heavy Cavalry (Leader and 2 Grunts) 6
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution 3
Ogrun Bokur 3
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator 1
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord 2
Thor Steinhammer 2
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist 2

Boomhowler & Co fills the same roll as before, (dito eEiryss, Aiyana & Holt, Gorman, Rhupert, Bokur) plus Steelhead punch. Gorten puts the wall to good use and tries to deliver his tuned up, strengthened Warjacks into the Stormwall.
I would try to use Wrong Eye etc. in Four Star, but I don't own a Bull Snapper (never thought of that!), but the little crocodile is already written on my wish list.

What do you think? Naive or solid?

[absent]

Mayhaps destruction needs to no longer ever be a scenario again =)

[sleet01]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Long Gunners. They're a crap unit in general but since they can CRA against Colossals in melee, they actually have something they can shoot from turn 3 on now.

[Centa]

@Khediv
Keep in mind that the Bull Snapper it self cannot cast his animus on merc models, only WrongEye can, because its friendly faction.
WrongEye is Merc/Minion, Bull Snapper only Minion.

The steelhead cav can do some serious dmg against a colossal. As long as u spread ur Halberdiers out for more then 7" you should be able to run around the templates and deliever the flank bonus. But still be carefull with the cav, with ARM 16 and 5 wounds you will lose one or two if you have to charge through the templates.

[absent]

Unless you have damiano's feat or force the colossal to charge, it had to charge constance in my game and i counter charged it.

[Lanz]

You might want to consider high-def low-arm infantry against the stormwall. While Covering Fire and the Lightning Pods can decimate them, covering fire requires that you walk into it, and the Lightning Pod shouldn't get more than 1 model at a time. It's a straight-line effect from the center of the stormwall's base.

The reason high-def is significant is because the Stormwall has no offensive abilities outside of the pod that can contest high-def models. All the other colossals have blasts, but the Stormwall doesn't and it's MAT is not amazing, so its sweeps aren't too impressive either.

So stuff like Nyss Hunters and Kayazay wouldn't be too bad. They can't do much to stop the Stormwall, but the Stormwall can't do much to stop them either.

[absent]

The other issue i was running into was mage storm + covering fire, which is a lot of surface area a trooper cant get near, and the b13 may or may not be in nearly every cygnar list. I found at least half my infantry was irrelevant, the stuff that was on stormwalls side that did not have multi wound. I don't think kayazy would ever get close, at least nyss can CRA though. Really if the stormwall is shooting the big guns at low def infantry he's probably not earning his points back and that can be a significant problem, and he is usually needing to spin up his other guns on covering fire rather than just shooting, so idk if one type of trooper is better than another, except i think speed matters because you really don't want it just having free reign over the board.

[lastspartacus]

Ironically yes, high def low arm infantry survive just find, if stymied, by stormwall, compared to other colossals.

[Dashwood]

The idea of Highborn lists being made to counter Cygnar tech amuses me.

That said, Absent is correct: it would probably be best to also assume that you're going to be dealing with the Black 13th every time you deal with a Stormwall. That's another template to worry about -- and worse if they get used in tandem (Stormwall screening B13). Once again, though, Stay Calm & Use Shadow Fire.

Also look out for Thunderbolts from ATGM. You know they'll actively try to knock your drillers out of melee to prevent the successive auto-hit, and if you're playing already-slow Rhulics, that's just going to get irritating. Then again, your Marshalled Mule will likely take care of them.

[sleet01]

Also look out for Thunderbolts from ATGM. You know they'll actively try to knock your drillers out of melee to prevent the successive auto-hit, and if you're playing already-slow Rhulics, that's just going to get irritating.

Uh, Sustained Attack doesn't last between activations, so I'm not sure what you're saying here.

[Dashwood]

My meta is entirely dwarf less, so this is good to know.

[absent]

The big issue there is the stormwall out threats them by about 10 miles and it's big guns do significant things to arm 19, and it can disrupt from around their actual melee threat or trash them in melee first. I still think speed is the key value.

[lastspartacus]

We talking searforge? Cuz for instance Durgen can use Redline and Lanyssa to do some pretty hefty damage.

[Ger]

If you look at the Stormwall's Grid's. It has 6 S grid's and S is what let's it lightning pod. Each of those systems has 3 boxes in it. Makes me wish I had access to Widowmakers to help plink that nonsense out. P Eyriss, if you brought her anyway, can strip one columns worth out a turn. More of a reactivly useful thing to "Oh hey all this other damage has managed to put the system in peril".

Stormwall is pretty outshootable. With Double Powder ration we mercs increase the number of models able to outthreat it's covering fire templates and Metal Storm guns by quite a bit. Even without DPR we have plenty of models that can shoot from beyond 10" and threaten it. In contrast a Stormwall needs to sacrifice it's covering fire in order to get a decent # of shots out. Further if it gets within 10" for Metal Storm shots it's likely in range of charges.

I can see where x2 Stormwalls and a Battle-engine would be highly irritating to face. Though it's really a gimmick list that puts all it's eggs in one basket. Mass Incorporeal lists can be problematic too.

Honestly I think any balanced merc list fairs a solid chance against any single Colossal list. It's going to be the more stacked and gimmicky lists that prove problematic.

[lastspartacus]

Doesn't snipe go to first box in grid? It'd take awhile sniping that way.

[Ger]

Doesn't snipe go to first box in grid? It'd take awhile sniping that way.

You choose the column. It's in the snipe rules itself.

::EDIT::
Add - pulled out Eyriss's card. Death Bolt is not actually snipe, but it also says you choose column (or branch) so it's still all good. IMO Death Bolt is underrated but EEyriss's upkeep hate is so useful.

[Ger]

Noooo double post!

[Bladestorm]

Snipe is an interesting idea, though I'm not sure you can take out the whole system that easily due to the "If on the left, must hit the left grid" thing it has going. (you could probably take out one side with enough snipers, but a little turn from the 'wall and it'd easily stop you moving to the other side to hit the rest the next turn)

[Ger]

You'd basically want the Sniper on the side opposite of your heavy hitters. I think Field of Fire control is very important when facing Colossals and it's something I'm still learning. Remember they need that center line pointed at something to hit it with weapons in both fields! Based on your positioning you can have a large influence on it's facing.

As for your exact situation Bladestorm. If the other side's the one I'm hitting with a focus laden jack than it's all good. If I keep my important bits near the snipers so he has to look at me that's cool too.

It's one of those things that requires a lot of snipers to really exploit so we mercs can't do it well. Just chalk it up to another of Ger's crazy "Hey this model you'd expect to not be great vs Colosals can do this and it's pretty cool". In this case PEyriss and Kell Bailoch are our only relevant options.