IFU a waste or am i simply dumb?

[Shyndaar]

Are our cav units good or no?

Theyre expensive, money and points, and i feel like theyre just large missiles.

Can someone tell me why they dont suck?

[Frege]

Uhlans don't suck but they are expensive, need the charge, need either an accuracy or damage buff (depending on your target) and can be a bit squishy. So you need to have a plan for them and a caster who can get them from "almost awesome" to have"utterly lethal". eVlad is the usual guy mentioned.

[CountDomar]

Strakhov is also good. His geat gives them the extra 4" of movement if charging an enemy target it has LOS to that is within Strakhov's control area (Note, the Uhlan's do not need to be in Strakhov's control area). Also, he can give them Stealth to make them harder for the enemy to target, thus allowing them to get closer without being picked off (Except for units like the pesky Gun Mages that ignore stealth).

[PG_Duckboy]

Vlad3 helps them out with the alpha strike. I ran a like with Vlad1 and practically an all cav list, it was not bad at all.

[Nebo]

You're right. They're basically just expensive missiles. That's not to say they're bad, but they really only shine if you can get the charge with the, which isn't always possible. They have poor MAT and can't use their best weapon unless you're charging, so once they've charged, they aren't doing much unless you can free them up again.

[PG_Samalefic]

All of which makes me glad for Vlad3.

[@Kriegsspiele]

I love Uhlans!

The IFUs add incredible speed and manoeuvrability to our forces, especially to pVlad, eVlad, the coming lVlad, Strakhov, and become madly evil under Butcher's feat or Fury.

They are a perfect match for all Vlads:
- Charge!
- RBA out with Transference and HoF or S&P only.
- Charge again...

Especially eVlad drives them to their full potential and gets them out of melee each and every time. lVlad will make this a single-turn-affair thanks to his feat and Dash in subsequent charges. But lVlad is pure theory right now.

To let the Uhlans shine you really need to learn the cavalry charge and the ride by attack rules. If you're simply charging them into any given unit or jack and wonder that nothing happens later on, you're simply doing them wrong.

[HellVenom]

Get a unit and watch it take on an opposing heavy jack or beast and plow right through now realize that you didn't spend and focus on that turn and they are twice as fast as your jacks and have a decent defense and armor stats and you paid 7 pts for 3 or 11 for 5 and their 4 pts solo is a shield wall killing machine. They need to get the charge to be most effective, but you usually saying the same thing about our jacks and while their standard attacks can't take out a jack or a multiwound MoW type model they are still more than capable of grinding through the infantry that foolishly attacked them. It is best to think of them in the role of light jack with more damage potential, higher arm, but fewer damage boxes.

Both with them and against them I've never seen the need for a buff to be placed on them, but an eVlad feat charge is just disgusting when done correctly. Stakov makes good use of them either on the feat turn or to fix the opponent in place for the feat turn. They can keep pace with Sorcha and prevent her from being sniped.

I don't always take IFU, but when I do, something is getting hit hard with a big pointy stick.

[@Kriegsspiele]

I don't always take IFU, but when I do, something is getting hit hard with a big pointy stick.

Lovely.

I'd like to add that I'm usually not charging if I'm not taking out the aim completely, especially if I'm charging jacks or beasts. Their maximum charge range and threat keeps your opponent on distance and helps your slower units to advance.

[MathPasta]

They just get shut down by too many lists. Thier very expensive missles.

Sometimes thats all you need, but allot of the times its not.

Evlad makes the missles even better, but doesnt cover thier holes. Not sure about lvlad.

I wouldnt buy them as they just cost too much $$$ and are a pain to assemble and are too situational.

[Shyndaar]

Yea, thats generally my thoughts. Missile, useful with vlads, expensive and generally not worth it. Ill buy them EVENTUALLY (if only cause i wanna be able to field any combo of all khador units) but not a must have or anything like that.

[Madhiggins]

they're just too easy to kill, i'd rather spend half the points and get a berserker who does the same amount of attacks at slight worse mat and worse speed but significantly more survivable.

[ScottEBJJ]

they're just too easy to kill, i'd rather spend half the points and get a berserker who does the same amount of attacks at slight worse mat and worse speed but significantly more survivable.

I find this a really false comparison.

Uhlans charge at MAT 8 with Crit Knockdown which is a huge bump over MAT 5. Uhlans are charging for a 5.5 more inches over a Berseker, with Pathfinder. And a Beserker to make even the same amount of attacks as even a min Uhlan unit (and this is excluding their impact attacks) needs to hit with both of its MAT 5 initials, or spend focus and maybe die. Uhlans also hit harder as all of the attacks can gain the charge dice.

The only thing the Beserker has over them is boxes, but since it has almost half the threat range it is not truly more survivable because it's prone to giving up the alpha-strike. It is only more slightly more survivable to high POW long range shooting, and even then not by much as it will eat more rounds of said shooting due to it's short threat range.

I'm finding very few situations where your statement is at all true.

[MathPasta]

Either way, they deserve more.

[PG_Duckboy]

I wish they gave heavy cav the 8health boxes they deserve. Then we would see more of the heavy cav units.

[ScottEBJJ]

Either way, they deserve more.

Why do they deserve more? They are perfectly viable option, especially with reinforcements.

[MathPasta]

Why do they deserve more?

The faction that is most defined by its Cavalry (In fluff) has such a mediocre cavalry unit.

I see them as more as a lemon then lemonade.

[ScottEBJJ]

The faction that is most defined by its Cavalry (In fluff) has such a mediocre cavalry unit.

I see them as more as a lemon then lemonade.

Fluff does not equal rules.

They have already shown their viability in a number of lists and all the way up to the highest level of play and that point saying they deserve more is creeping towards saying they should be overpowered or an auto-include.

My only complaint is their MAT 6.

[MathPasta]

Yeah I know. Fluff does not equal rules.

[Ender_Melchior]

Cavalry with the Irusks are great. Battle Lust, on their charge turn? Yes please. EIrusk can give them tactical supremacy. On pIrusks feat turn, charging at mat 10 with battle lust, and Super!tough and no knock down? double yes!

[MathPasta]

That is awesome. But again, thats thier problem: Thier good at what they do, but don't expect them to pull it off again.

[quindraco]

Are our cav units good or no?

Theyre expensive, money and points, and i feel like theyre just large missiles.

Can someone tell me why they dont suck?

Iron Fang Uhlans have some crippling weaknesses, which makes them very caster specific, since you have to make their weaknesses matter less if you want them to shine. Epic Vlad, for example, does a reasonable job of this, so they're popular with him. eButcher, on the other hand, does nothing at all to fix them, and they're consequently a really poor choice for him. Their primary problem is that they're utterly worthless in melee when not charging; consequently, they need a caster who can help guarantee that they manage to charge, such as eVlad, lVlad, or Strakhov. Those three casters are also not interested in another weakness, which is that they don't have reach on your opponent's turn, since eVlad and Strakhov are planning on winning on charge turn and lVlad's IFUs can side-step on charge turn if they need to. eVlad also helps patch their fragility on feat turn.

I recommend starting with Fenris and a Drakhun if you want to get into cav as a Khador player - they're much better than IFUs, including under the casters I already mentioned, but FA means you can't spam them (although lVlad can take two Drakhuns).

[Madhiggins]

to explain their rules not living up to fluff, from what i understand, in Mark 1 cavalry were all terrific and everyone almost always took them. so in Mark 2 PP made them not as good and then calv models super dropped down in popularity.

[quindraco]

to explain their rules not living up to fluff, from what i understand, in Mark 1 cavalry were all terrific and everyone almost always took them. so in Mark 2 PP made them not as good and then calv models super dropped down in popularity.

I never played in MK1, but as I understand it, one big difference is that human cavalry used to be 8 wounds. I have no explanation for how IFU manage to only be 5 wounds mounted while Fenris is 10.

[Shyndaar]

I never played in MK1, but as I understand it, one big difference is that human cavalry used to be 8 wounds. I have no explanation for how IFU manage to only be 5 wounds mounted while Fenris is 10.

Fenris is an awful monster who rides a demon horse into battle. Im pretty sure he only agreed to hitboxes because the Empress wouldnt have let him out otherwise.

[profparm]

Fenris USED to be only one wound, when he was just a Doom Reaver.

But then he used his enchanted blades to cut 3 damage boxes off of each Uhlan he came across, to prove himself the better horseman; and, of course, they let him, because you ALWAYS let the Doom Reaver win.

After he was done, he used 9 of the damage boxes on himself, and after that he mostly just used the other damage boxes to hide from guards while playing MGS.

[@Kriegsspiele]

I've got the strong feeling that some of you haven't played the Uhlans yet. At least you're comparing apples to oranges here.

The Uhlans offer a very strong threat to all of our opponents not one other Khadoran unit has to offer. I wouldn't field a pure Uhlan army in a competitive environment, but I'm almost always fielding at least one small unit, mostly a unit of 5.

- Uhlans keep opponents on distance: what should tell you that other players know a lot better what they are facing (MAT 8, POW 16, on a standard 13'' + 1-3 horse attacks).
- Uhlans are plain lovely with most scenarios: getting there first and keeping the enemy away.
- Uhlans are perfect supporters for our infantry: and they are doing this all over the board.
- Uhlans hit and damage very hard when it comes to jacks/beasts: just like every other infantry they want to be a full unit.
- Uhlans are well balanced in my opinion: adding more of anything would overpower them.

The downside: Uhlans have a steep learning curve. Other than our common infantry they have (great!) additional rules and need to be handled with more knowledge about their full capabilities. I can only highly recommend to play them: prox them first and get an idea of their potentials.

[PG_ChainGun]

The Uhlans don't suck, it's simply that 19 of of 20 games you'll better options I field them with eVlad but don't bother to with any other caster.

[PG_battlemechanik]

Their primary problem is that they're utterly worthless in melee when not charging; consequently, they need a caster who can help guarantee that they manage to charge, such as eVlad, lVlad, or Strakhov.

I'd disagree, I think their primary problem is MAT. If you need to e.g. impact attack to get to your target, and don't have a way to increase mat, fuggedaboutit. Because they don't make as many attacks as a small based infantry unit, each miss hurts more. With casters that can improve their accuracy, they're well worth their cost.

Has anyone actually tried running double uhlan evlad tier 4 at 50 points for a significant amount of time? I was skeptical of evlad's tier, but it has really impressed me at 35 (and a non-tier list has done just fine at 50).

[Aylw]

I dunno, haven't played them personally, but seen them played and against me - and they seem to rock. They hit extremely hard, from very far away. The ability to run 16" is pretty darn awesome.

Sure, they need certain casters for optimal performance, but consider their specialization. If you made them 'good enough' to be pretty good with everyone, they'd end up broken with others (ala Iron Flesh WGI or kayazy assassins).

My one complaint is I don't like the models, and they're so darned big - how you gonna fit them in a case?

I also worry that bane cavalry is going to rock them in every single way, making them comparatively undesirable to play.

[quindraco]

I'd disagree, I think their primary problem is MAT.

This is you agreeing with me, because on a charge they're MAT 8. Impact attacks aren't charge attacks, so that's part of how they suck.

[@Kriegsspiele]

Has anyone actually tried running double uhlan evlad tier 4 at 50 points for a significant amount of time? I was skeptical of evlad's tier, but it has really impressed me at 35 (and a non-tier list has done just fine at 50).

I did, but the theme misses some important tools for truly competitive play, especially solos. I'm still looking forward to see if lVlad's T4 can change this, although he's even missing IFPs! Still, eVlad's T4 is the best (and most fun) theme force in my opinion and I'm pretty sure that lVlad's T4 will be a lot of fun, too. I can't wait to play with two Drakhuns.

Sure, they need certain casters for optimal performance, but consider their specialization. If you made them 'good enough' to be pretty good with everyone, they'd end up broken with others (ala Iron Flesh WGI or kayazy assassins).

That's exactly what I think: We don't need more "must/auto includes". I'm part of this problem but I'm already starting to feel bored when playing vs. Khador: apparently we don't have anything else than IFed WGI and Kayazy? Are we starting to be like all those boring Cryx-players?

It's been one more reason why I've played eVlad with IFUs and IFPs on my last tournament. Of course I've added Kayazy (all of them), but at least I haven't used an IF-caster.

My biggest hope about Colossals is a change to the current "high def"-meta. It bores me to face the same casters and units so often...

My one complaint is I don't like the models, and they're so darned big - how you gonna fit them in a case?

I've simply magnetised all lances. EDIT: And let them point to the sky! They are pretty annoying otherwise.

I also worry that bane cavalry is going to rock them in every single way, making them comparatively undesirable to play.

Interestingly I have never seen them fielded? Probably there's an overall "problem" with cavalry? Except of solos I don't see many cavalry units in my local meta or on tournaments - except of ours and Legion's. - I've started playing with MKII. I've heard about "how amazing" cavalry's been in MKI. Is this true? Has cavalry been "overpowered" in MKI? Did it become "underpowered" in MKII?

This is you agreeing with me, because on a charge they're MAT 8. Impact attacks aren't charge attacks, so that's part of how they suck.

I'm usually not facing this MAT-problem because of pVlad's S&P or eVlad's HoF. But I'm also playing them regularly with Strakhov and Butcher, planning and playing them accordingly. In my opinion IFUs need to be played more thoughtfully than any other of our infantry units ... but they're adding to an(y!) Khadoran army what it's missing most: speed and manoeuvrability.

Uhlans can indeed be a first strike weapon ("missile" is simply wrong in my opinion), but they are - more importantly - adding an huge element of denial to the whole table. They need a good plan for what's happening after their first strike and for its timing. And they need patience: don't give up after your first games!

[PG_battlemechanik]

This is you agreeing with me, because on a charge they're MAT 8. Impact attacks aren't charge attacks, so that's part of how they suck.

No, that is me disagreeing with you. Reread my post. Mat 6 isn't enough on a must-hit impact attack, and even mat 8 isn't enough on a must-hit charge attack (e.g. because you were only able to get one large-based cav in on their caster, as opposed to 2 great bears each backswinging for 4 attacks). If you're only going to get one chance, you need to make sure it hits, which is why evlad is the best caster for uhlans, giving them mat 9 + 3d6 drop lowest impact attacks or mat 11 + 4d6 charge attacks.

Mat 7 / 9 on the charge wouldn't be too much to ask for for a unit of that cost, imho, and would make them more usable with other casters. As they are, they work with evlad and irusk (and i would assume pvlad, although I havent tried).

[Kuarnix]

They just get shut down by too many lists. Thier very expensive missles.

Sometimes thats all you need, but allot of the times its not.

Evlad makes the missles even better, but doesnt cover thier holes. Not sure about lvlad.

I wouldnt buy them as they just cost too much $$$ and are a pain to assemble and are too situational.

A list of poor match ups might help the OP, if he does or doesn't have them in his area it may help him decide if Uhlans are worth it. The worst ones I can really think of are the Haley's....

[quindraco]

A list of poor match ups might help the OP, if he does or doesn't have them in his area it may help him decide if Uhlans are worth it. The worst ones I can really think of are the Haley's....

Worst there is for them is Saeryn.

[Ender_Melchior]

Anyone who can cast Fear of God on them hurts them badly, because without the charge, or the ability to perform ride-by attacks? They're really hurt.

[OrsusSmash]

Honestly, it's a pretty big list. I started typing it up, and then realized that the list is almost too long to really be useful; pretty much every faction has one caster matchup that isn't good for Uhlans, and even ignoring those their general infantry match ups aren't that great.

I don't think Uhalns are a waste - point of fact, I think they'll be more useful moving into the post-Colossals/Gargantuans meta that's high on blast/auto damage - but they are a finicky unit. It's a lot of points for a small number of models, and they almost always have to get the charge off in order to be a worthwhile investment. It's also 7/11 points of your army you're investing almost solely in anti-heavy tech, because they're wasted (and largely ineffective) against single wound infantry units. And

Thus, it's a unit that requires building with them in mind, versus just tossing them into any old list. Also, as mentioned several times, if they can't charge, they're kind of boned, which puts them in a bad spot in a fair number of match ups. They also work much, much more easily at 50 points, where you can shore up your anti-infantry needs much more efficiently with your remaining points. And once you put them on the table, you need to learn where to move them, when to move them there, and when to move them out of there to keep them safe.

I've found over the years of using them (god I miss the 8 wound heavy cav of Mk. 1 some days) that a big part of getting value out of heavy cav is using their mobility to move and re-deploy into spots that are problematic for your opponent. Use them for flank attacks and feints, and you'll get more out of them than if you just ran them up the field and charged them at whatever is in the way (which you can easily do with any of our infantry, and for cheaper.) If you can really leverage their 13" charge threat/16" run to keep your opponent on their toes, then you'll get good value out of them.

[medward]

A couple of minor things to note for those new to the IFU, or cav in general. First off, their charges get powerful charge (+2 MAT on charges) so they are reasonable MAT on the charge attack. Also, under no circumstances can you boost the mount attack rolls (either damage or attack), This really only comes up with eVlad, but since he's the best caster to run them with, it's worth mentioning. Impact attacks are great for clearing out a cheap tarpit in the way of a caster, but even under eVlad's feat, the impact attack is only at MAT 9, so don't count on it always working.

Those notes aside, the cav really shine with all the vlads, and they work well at higher point levels in general, especially with casters who can't run as many jacks effectively. One of the top Khadoran lists at UK Masters ran a min unit of IFU and Kovnik Markov to make them fearless.

[quindraco]

A couple of minor things to note for those new to the IFU, or cav in general. First off, their charges get powerful charge (+2 MAT on charges) so they are reasonable MAT on the charge attack. Also, under no circumstances can you boost the impact attack rolls (either damage or attack), though you can boost the mount attacks you make under combat rider. This really only comes up with eVlad, but since he's the best caster to run them with, it's worth mentioning. Impact attacks are great for clearing out a cheap tarpit in the way of a caster, but even under eVlad's feat, the impact attack is only at MAT 9, so don't count on it always working.

Those notes aside, the cav really shine with all the vlads, and they work well at higher point levels in general, especially with casters who can't run as many jacks effectively. One of the top Khadoran lists at UK Masters ran a min unit of IFU and Kovnik Markov to make them fearless.

HoF and SnP *do* work on the impacts, making them more accurate.

[Kuarnix]

Honestly, it's a pretty big list. I started typing it up, and then realized that the list is almost too long to really be useful; pretty much every faction has one caster matchup that isn't good for Uhlans, and even ignoring those their general infantry match ups aren't that great.

Do you think it's substantially longer than any other unit? I feel like most of the things that are problematic for Uhlans are problematic for some other units as well, but it's felt more acutely in Uhlans because of their high point-to-model ratio. I think there are meta issues also, with the high defense.....something the Uhlans are not designed to crack. It'd be like asking Kayazy to crack a closed Devastator