Shatter Storm and Arcane Secrets

[Siranaul]

To set this up, Sylys uses Arcane Secrets on Ossyan. The first spell cast by Ossyan is Shatter Storm. Later that turn the model/unit with Shatter Storm boxes an enemy model. Would the damage rolls from the AOE be given an extra die and then have the lowest result be dropped? Rule quotes please.

[Nafael]

To set this up, Sylys uses Arcane Secrets on Ossyan. The first spell cast by Ossyan is Shatter Storm. Later that turn the model/unit with Shatter Storm boxes an enemy model. Would the damage rolls from the AOE be given an extra die and then have the lowest result be dropped? Rule quotes please.

Shatterstorm is not an offensive spell/magic attack, neither are the AOE byproducts.

edit: reread arcane secrets... huh, the wording is interesting, but I doubt the aoes are considered to be magic damage rolls of the spell or anywhere really.

[Siranaul]

Arcane Secrets says nothing about an offensive spell. It says the "first spell cast". Edit: I doubt it will work as well. However, I think there is a possibility where I might be delightfully surprised.

[maddermax]

The shatter storm blast doesn't cause a Magic attack or Damage roll, so it wouldn't add a die to either of them. It's simply an unboostable POW 8 blast damage roll. So, even if it somehow worked on secondary effects like that (and I don't think it does), it wouldn't have an effect anyway.

[Michael]

... If the warcaster is in range, it gains an additional die on magic attack and magic damage rolls for the next spell it casts. ...

When target friendly Faction model/unit directly his and boxes an enemy model with a ranged or melee attack, center a 3" AOE on the boxed model, then remove that model from play. Models in the AOE are hit and suffer an unboostable POW 8 blast damage roll.

Does Shatter Storm generate an attack roll? No.
Does Shatter Storm generate a damage roll? No.

If Ossyan (or anyone else, for that matter), under the effects of Arcane Secrets, casts Shatter Storm as his first spell that turn, Arcane Secrets triggers and promptly does nothing. The spell does not, in any way, shape, or form, generate either an attack or damage roll, nor can it ever do so.

I hope this helps.

[Houston]

The shatter storm blast doesn't cause a Magic attack or Damage roll, so it wouldn't add a die to either of them. It's simply an unboostable POW 8 blast damage roll. So, even if it somehow worked on secondary effects like that (and I don't think it does), it wouldn't have an effect anyway.

According to this thread, Maudlin states specifically that the POW 8's from Shatterstorm are magic damage: http://privateerpressforums.com/show...nd-Incorporeal. It just isn't an offensive spell.

[FearLord]

According to this thread, Maudlin states specifically that the POW 8's from Shatterstorm are magic damage: http://privateerpressforums.com/show...nd-Incorporeal. It just isn't an offensive spell.

Slight correction - he says that the damage from Shatterstorm AOE's is from a spell (which is one of the requirements for damaging incorporeal models). He doesn't say that it is Magic Damage (which is damage caused by a Magic Attack - i.e. an offensive spell).

[Michael]

Re: Houston and FearLord

It doesn't matter if the POW 8's are damage from a spell or not. Arcane Secrets has already triggered, granted the extra dice (even though there were no dice being rolled for either attack or damage rolls), and expired by the time any POW 8's ever happen due to Shatter Storm.

1) Sylys grants Arcane Secrets
2) The warcaster casts a spell.
3) Arcane Secrets triggers and grants an additional die on attack and damage rolls for this spell -- regardless of whether or not there are any attack or damage rolls as a result of casting this spell.
4) Arcane Secrets expires.
5) Other stuff happens, and Arcane Secrets has nothing to do with anything from this point onward.

[FearLord]

Re: Houston and FearLord

It doesn't matter if the POW 8's are damage from a spell or not. Arcane Secrets has already triggered, granted the extra dice (even though there were no dice being rolled for either attack or damage rolls), and expired by the time any POW 8's ever happen due to Shatter Storm.

1) Sylys grants Arcane Secrets
2) The warcaster casts a spell.
3) Arcane Secrets triggers and grants an additional die on attack and damage rolls for this spell -- regardless of whether or not there are any attack or damage rolls as a result of casting this spell.
4) Arcane Secrets expires.
5) Other stuff happens, and Arcane Secrets has nothing to do with anything from this point onward.

I don't think either of us implied that Arcane Secrets works on Shatterstorm AOE's - I certainly didn't and I'm well aware that it doesn't. In fact, my terminology correction points out exactly why it doesn't work - Arcane Secrets adds an additional dice on Magic attack and Magic damage roles and, as I pointed out, Shatterstorm damage rolls are not magic damage rolls...

[Siranaul]

Two things I'd like to point out. One being that Arcane Secrets lasts for the turn. It doesn't say that it expires any earlier than that. The other is that since the AOEs generated by Shatter Storm are still spells. That should make their damage rolls magical without having to specify that they are. Attacks made with a melee weapon are melee attacks. Damage rolls resulting from successful melee attacks are melee damage rolls. A warjack that is thrown it takes throw damage. Yet Concentrated Power still adds to the damage roll, because the attack is melee by origin.

[Kommissar Golovko]

Arcane Secrets specifically refers to "warcaster". So the model/unit with Shatterstorm would NOT benefit in any way.

[Falkman]

The other is that since the AOEs generated by Shatter Storm are still spells. That should make their damage rolls magical without having to specify that they are. Attacks made with a melee weapon are melee attacks. Damage rolls resulting from successful melee attacks are melee damage rolls. A warjack that is thrown it takes throw damage. Yet Concentrated Power still adds to the damage roll, because the attack is melee by origin.

The AoEs generated by Shatter storm are not spells, they're the effect of a spell. Shatter storm itself clearly states that a model in the AoE takes a 'POW 8 blast damage roll'. That is all they do, a blast damage roll. It's not a magic damage roll, or a ranged damage roll, or a whatever else damage roll.
Concentrated power works on a throw because a throw is specifically stated to be a melee attack. Shatter storm has no such specification.

[FearLord]

The other is that since the AOEs generated by Shatter Storm are still spells. That should make their damage rolls magical without having to specify that they are. Attacks made with a melee weapon are melee attacks. Damage rolls resulting from successful melee attacks are melee damage rolls. A warjack that is thrown it takes throw damage. Yet Concentrated Power still adds to the damage roll, because the attack is melee by origin.

Incorrect. The AOE's generated from Shatterstorm are damage from a spell (which is why they can hurt incorporeal models), but that doesn't make them either "Magic Damage rolls" because this requires an Offensive Spell, or "Magical Damage rolls" because this requires an attack with the Magical Weapon Advantage icon.

Arcane Secrets specifies "Magic Attack" and "Magic Damage rolls", both of which require an Offensive spell.

[Houston]

Arcane Secrets specifies "Magic Attack" and "Magic Damage rolls", both of which require an Offensive spell.

Is there a page number or ruling you can reference to support this?

[Nafael]

Is there a page number or ruling you can reference to support this?

There isn't, the wording on his entry just states spell. *Rubbing my temples* Now I'm sure it would work on a spell like 'blightbringer' (Non offensive everblight spell where you center a 5 inch aoe around a warbeast and everything there is hit for a pow 12 damage roll), but Shatterstorm is essentially a 'buff.' It's a spell that allows a unit/model to do something, in this case place aoes after destroying a model. While I would love it to have arcane secrets aid it... this stretches the definition of a 'spell.'

[Xarian]

1. Shatter Storm doesn't grant the target model/unit an ability (e.g. "Gives Swift Hunter" or something similar), which implies that the effects are being generated by the spell rather than the model/unit itself.
2. The spell was cast by Ossyan, which means that the source of the damage from the spell is Ossyan.
3. Damage resulting from spells is magical.
4. Arcane Secrets affects magic damage rolls generated by the targeted Warcaster
5. Ossyan is the targeted warcaster and was generating magic damage rolls (1-3)
6. Arcane Secrets affects any damage rolls generated by Shatter Storm

[FearLord]

There isn't, the wording on his entry just states spell.

Am I the only one who owns any of the books?

- Wrath p.135 - Wyshnaylor's Arcane Secrets Rule states that a model gets an additional dice on "magic attack and magic damage rolls of the next spell cast".

- Prime p.77 - "An Offensive Spell is a magic attack".

Look up Magic attack in the index - the only rules that it apply to are Offensive Spells...

[vintersbastard]

Am I the only one who owns any of the books?

- Wrath p.135 - Wyshnaylor's Arcane Secrets Rule states that a model gets an additional dice on "magic attack and magic damage rolls of the next spell cast".

- Prime p.77 - "An Offensive Spell is a magic attack".

Look up Magic attack in the index - the only rules that it apply to are Offensive Spells...

Well, the problem with that argument is that magic damage rolls can come from sources that are not magic attacks, e.g. Blight Bringer, and Arcane Secrets is not limited to magic attack damage rolls.

[FearLord]

Well, the problem with that argument is that magic damage rolls can come from sources that are not magic attacks, e.g. Blight Bringer, and Arcane Secrets is not limited to magic attack damage rolls.

Where are you getting that Blight Bringer causes Magic damage rolls? Blight bringer can hurt incorporeal models for the same reason that Shatterstorm AOE's do - they are damage from a spell. Unless an effect specifically says it deals a "magic damage roll", it doesn't unless it is an offensive spell.

[vintersbastard]

Where are you getting that Blight Bringer causes Magic damage rolls? Blight bringer can hurt incorporeal models for the same reason that Shatterstorm AOE's do - they are damage from a spell. Unless an effect specifically says it deals a "magic damage roll", it doesn't unless it is an offensive spell.

If we're being this precise, I'd answer that it actually never states that offensive spells cause magic damage. They are magic attacks, and would therefore cause magic attack damage, but not magic damage. Notice where this goes?

(P. 65 refers to damaging effects, not just attacks, so it's still within reason to subsume non-attack stuff here.)

[FearLord]

If we're being this precise, I'd answer that it actually never states that offensive spells cause magic damage. They are magic attacks, and would therefore cause magic attack damage, but not magic damage. Notice where this goes?

(P. 65 refers to damaging effects, not just attacks, so it's still within reason to subsume non-attack stuff here.)

p.65 actually says "In the case of ranged, magic, and most other damaging effects roll 2d6 and add the Power (POW) of the attack." which doesn't seem to imply that non-attacks can cause Magic damage rolls.

However, I agree that any effect can deal Magic damage - it just has to specify that it does (i.e "models effected suffer a POW 12 magic damage roll") - I am arguing that damage from non-offensive spells isn't "magic damage" unless it says it is. This is pretty much the only time I can think of that the distinction makes any noticeable difference, but there is no implication in the rules that damage from non-offensive spells causes magic damage - this is why the incorporeal rules state that they suffer damage from both "magic attacks" and "spells", because there is a difference...


"Magic" is one of the 3 types of basic attack (Melee, Ranged and Magic)

[Houston]

Shatter Storm "When target friendly Faction model/unit directly hits and boxes an emeny model with a ranged or melee attack, center a 3" AOE on the boxed model, then remove that model from play. Models in the AOE are hit and suffer an unboostable POW 8 blast damage roll."

Because of the word "Hit" appears in the spell text, it is obviously some type of AoE attack.

pg. 58 of Primal (sorry, I have no clue where my Prime is) lists only 3 types of AoE attacks: Ranged AoE, Melee AoE, and Magic AoE. Because of rulings regarding Shatter Storm under Ossyan's feat, we know that it is not considered a ranged attack/damage. Hence the other 2 options are magic or melee. Since this is obviously not a melee attack, the AoE, being from a spell would be best qualified as a magic attack.

Also, checking the wording for "Offensive spells" in Primal (pg. 79). It states that "an offensive spell or animus is a magic attack that requires that the model casting the spell or using the animus succeed in a magic attack roll to put its effects into play." Note that while all offensive spells are magic attacks, according to the wording used, offensive spells are only one flavor of magic attack (i. e. not all magic attacks are offensive spells.)

I would be inclined to state that the AoE is a magic attack, albeit a non-offensive one, which therefore would cause a magic damage roll that Arcane Secrets can effect.

[Crate123]

I dont think it will work because its not Ossyan doing the damage, the damage is either done by the unit or its just damage that doesnt originate from anywhere.

[solkan]

If only there were a clarification stating that the blast damage roll wasn't considered a result of the attack.

Because reasonably speaking it isn't, and that clarification would make this whole problem go away.

[Xarian]

If only there were a clarification stating that the blast damage roll wasn't considered a result of the attack.

Because reasonably speaking it isn't, and that clarification would make this whole problem go away.

This doesn't need clarification because there is no reason whatsoever to think that the AOE is a result of the attack: it would have be a special rule for the weapon in order for this to be the case. Shatter Storm doesn't add a special rule; it is simply an effect applied to the model(s).

Further, if it were a result of the attack, then it would inherit special properties from the attack, e.g. Continuous Fire, and would not be able to damage Incorporeal models unless the attack was Magical - it has already been clarified that the damage is the result of the spell, and not the attack.

[Houston]

Employed some search fu in looking at similar spells (Blight Bringer, Primed).

It seems like there is Infernal precedence for stating that Shatter Storm is not a magic attack.

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...=1#post1298064


And a second infernal ruling stating that a magic attack is required to generate a magic damage roll:

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...l=1#post739126


1. Sylys uses Arcane secrets on eSorcha/Ossyan
2. eSorscha/Ossyan cast Shatter Storm as the first spell during their activation.
3. Arcane Secrets expires. No bonus die to anything because the resulting AoE is not a magic attack (I guess we should add "spell attack" to the AoE attack types).
4. eSorscha/Ossyan wishes they had first cast Arcantrik Bolt/Razor Wind instead.

[Sheer_Falacy]

And a second infernal ruling stating that a magic attack is required to generate a magic damage roll:

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...l=1#post739126

This one doesn't apply - Bethayne's feat is specifically magic attack damage rolls. Wyshnalyrr, on the other hand, affects magic damage rolls.

I suspect that the intended answer by the developers will be no, but the rules do seem to point to yes.

[FearLord]

I would be inclined to state that the AoE is a magic attack, albeit a non-offensive one, which therefore would cause a magic damage roll that Arcane Secrets can effect.

There is no such thing as a "non-offensive attack" - the AOE's from Shatterstorm are not attacks - they do not target.

Adding "Magic Damage" to spells makes sense in people's heads, but it isn't supported by the rules - there is no rules basis for the AOE damage from Shatterstorm to be Magic - it is however, damage from a spell so is functionally the same in almost all circumstances...

[Kommissar Golovko]

I still go by my last post. It is the warcaster which gets the buff from Arcane Secrets and not the target model/unit.

[Houston]

There is no such thing as a "non-offensive attack" - the AOE's from Shatterstorm are not attacks - they do not target.

Targeting does not determine if something is an attack or not. For example: Combustion on the Castigator.

FYI, I agree that Arcane Secrets does not work, but disagree with this line of the reasoning.

[FearLord]

Targeting does not determine if something is an attack or not. For example: Combustion on the Castigator.

FYI, I agree that Arcane Secrets does not work, but disagree with this line of the reasoning.

Combustion doesn't require a target because it specifies that it doesn't need a target. All attacks require a target unless they state otherwise...

[vintersbastard]

p.65 actually says "In the case of ranged, magic, and most other damaging effects roll 2d6 and add the Power (POW) of the attack." which doesn't seem to imply that non-attacks can cause Magic damage rolls.

Strictly speaking, it implies that non-attack effects cannot cause damage rolls at all (since it refers to "the Power of the attack"). We all know that that's not the case.

[Xarian]

Attack and damage are completely separate things; effects can do one without the other. For example, Hunter's Mark is an attack with no damage, and Blight Bringer does damage but has no attack.

The question becomes "do no-attack-rolling spells deal magic damage, or only those which specifically generate a magic attack?"

Golovko: Arcane Secrets states that it only applies to the Warcaster. The model/unit that has Arcane Secrets cast on it does not generate the AOEs, however: they are generated by the effect of Arcane Secrets, which was a spell cast by the Warcaster.

Houston: your example is patently wrong. Arcane Secrets expires at the end of the turn (if you don't cast a spell) and expires when the spell expires (if you do cast a spell during the turn). It doesn't stop working on the first spell that you cast simply because the spell has already been cast. If that spell generates additional attack/damage rolls over the course of the game, Arcane Secrets will continue to have an effect.

If Shatter Storm AOEs count as magic damage, then Arcane Secrets works on them (for the reasons that I stated above).
If it doesn't count as magic damage, then Arcane Secrets doesn't work on them.

Questions to be answered:
- Which model is the source of the Shatter Storm AOE?
- Does the Shatter Storm count as magic damage?

[FearLord]

Strictly speaking, it implies that non-attack effects cannot cause damage rolls at all (since it refers to "the Power of the attack"). We all know that that's not the case.

Agreed, and as I go on to state, I have no problem agreeing that an effect can cause magic damage, but I don't agreed that it can unless:
1) it is the result of a magic attack
2) It specifies that it does magic damage

[Siranaul]

Questions to be answered: - Which model is the source of the Shatter Storm AOE? - Does the Shatter Storm count as magic damage?

The first question is the most important one. The second one, however, is answered by the fact that it has been confirmed that the AOEs are in fact spells, and all spells that do damage is magic damage. That is my take on it, anyway.

[Driver]

I originally said no, but after reading the thread I am not so sure.

It would be awesome if it did work.

[poeticruse]

Arcane Secrets affects damage rolls made by the warcaster. The warcaster is not making the damage rolls from shatterstorm.

[FearLord]

The second one, however, is answered by the fact that it has been confirmed that the AOEs are in fact spells, and all spells that do damage is magic damage.

That very much hasn't been confirmed - There is absolutely no basis for determining that all spells that do damage do magic damage - it isn't in the rules.

But at least we have an answer - Arcane Secrets doesn't work on Shatterstorm...