Let's talk Precursor Knights

[jwai]

Since we're already on the topic of Devil Dogs as an uncommonly used unit, let's have a go with Precursor Knights, notwithstanding that you can only use them in Highborn Covenant, and without any Thamarites or Undead.

They seem to be one way of making spell assassination more difficult if you put them in front of your small-based caster, although Spell Ward does prevent you from using many of the spell-based buffs that Mercenaries have. Ranked Attack from the UA also means they aren't bad for screening squishy ranged units like Gun Mages.

[taffyjoe]

As a non-merc player, I do want to ask - are these guys as good with Damiano as they look?

Sudo P+S 15 weapon masters on the charge seems pretty neat. Plus they like surefoot (def 15) as would Gallant) + Rupert. Seems some good synergy.

[absent]

The bad of them is Shield wall is usually junk, no reach is usually junk, and spell ward often hurts merc casters too much. The good of them is mat 7 pow 12 mini feat weaponmaster, and arm 18 if they can just be advancing. I have tried to fit them in some different lists, i always yank them, even with constance i havent' gotten much out of them, though they remain for some flank. Might just be a stylistic thing.

Just one by one to show what i mean, shield wall. They do really hose up some spell slinger casters like you said, rahn and stuff, but if you can aoe another target and get some rear arc drifts they start dying super fast. This is a huge problem with shield wall, and one only gorton mitigates.

No reach, They are brutal killers in melee if they get the charge, but without reach the amount of knights you can deliver is very low, if you only deliver 3-4 then the rest are just def 13 arm 14 dudes that turn, making it so you charge and kill a little, but then they are super exposed. If you get a heavy it's worth it, if not they either have to turtle up the field or risk mass doom.

Spell ward, Most merc casters have a melee or def buff they want on these guys, fortune, death march, quicken, maybe primed (that is a stretch i guess) Still it hurts the amount of lists you think about them in.

I don't think i've tried them with gorton, who might be a good match for them, though they would slow the list down a lot, i've tried them with many other casters and have always gone back to my other choices. They are fine if they get there, it's just to get them there they need to run, and that exposes them. They would be really good if it was sacred ward or they had spears instead of maces.

[absent]

As a non-merc player, I do want to ask - are these guys as good with Damiano as they look?

Sudo P+S 15 weapon masters on the charge seems pretty neat. Plus they like surefoot (def 15) as would Gallant) + Rupert. Seems some good synergy.

I tried this i was very unimpressed vs other merc choices for damiano, that guy makes everything look pretty good on feat turn, but that list turns into too much of a one turn wonder. Also threat range, he has no way to make them faster, so his feat gets more out of higher threat range models.

[Bladestorm]

I've never had any real trouble getting a lot of them into combat, but then they tend to be a second wave/clean-up unit, or a screen in a combined arms force rather than the front-line in a melee heavy one.

Where they really excel I think is where a caster needs a very self-sufficient general purpose melee unit, or has buffs that don't target. I find they really like Dirge of Mists as well, as that pushes them up to DEF 14, ARM 18, spell-ward, terror, which is pretty darn solid.

[i_like_tool]

They work fantastic in my Constance list. They are heavy hitters, with mini feat, and Crusaders Call helps get them stuck in. I wouldn't run 2 units unless I was staring at a 75pt list but never regret them with Constance.

I plan to start trying them with some other Merc Casters, as I need to expand who I play with regularly again

[Da-Rock]

I love em with both Ashlynn and Constance. Most players try to use them or compare them to other base infantry and thats the mistake. They are not standard infantry and require using more then point and click tactics. I tell people who have issues with them to simply go with something their brains can handle = Steelhead Halbs

Tactics =

With Constance they provide a few solid things that others have already mentioned

1. Self sufficient abilities like Shield Wall, Spell Ward, Mini Feat Weapons Master, 13 Def
2. Shield Wall plus Ranked attacks for Black 13th or Gunmages etc
3. They look sweet!
4. They can kill any jack on Mini feat charge which helps Connie's lack of her own heavy hitter Jacks
5. They look sweet!

[NEoJoe]

They do kinda just die. The lack of reach is a problem, I'd say the biggest. Mercs actually have a good number of non-target spell buffs. Not being buffable is a downside, sure. But I've not cared as much in my games.

To me, though, they don't cost a whole bunch. I'd even just leave the UA at home sometimes. Due to a lot of things mentioned, they don't get much out of the minifeat since you've gotta spread em' out real good to get a bunch of attacks in. I just stop worrying about their offensive potential and use them as guys with Blessed. Blessed is my favorite aspect of the PKs.

If you leave the UA out, they're pretty decent Ant Infantry since they ignore spell buffs and swing at solid MAT. Lack of reach hurts less against infantry, and they only cost 8 points and can't be magically messed with (debuff wise, not counting TB and the like).

They really have to be kind of an addition to your army, or viewed as support. Not your main unit. As far as I have discovered, anyway.

[Da-Rock]

I disagree about the UA and Mini Feat. Not sure what scenarios you have run into where they are too spread out, but 3 of mine on Mini Feat and a charge destroyed Drago. I charged some others in same turn and killed while running my banner into Behemoth's base to block charge lane.

The UA is almost a must as they become much more average in their utility without them. Personally I don't like them in any for other then Full squad plus UA.

Connie has assassinated Karchev and pMakeda with me moving a single Precursor Knight into melee with her target.

[Ger]

PKs are one of those units I'd love to own if I had more $$$. I wouldn't want more then one unit. They seem more adept as a second unit in a list filling a role of being really solid all around melee without being buffed. The UA adds a lot but even without him they seem worthwhile in that second slot.

Sure in direct comparisons they seem awkward against the rest of our forces. But I feel putting them besides them looks a lot better. That means you still have someone to throw your buff spells on. You have say Steelheads to lead the way, absorb, and give PKs time to position to counter punch. You have Forgeguard to Quicken to keep pace with them and mix onto targets. (Forgeguard reach will let them swing over PK shoulders) You have Nyss to play the flanks, lead in, or be the counter-punch for the PKs. Sea Dog Crew can't deal with high arm so PKs can take over when that's an issue or maybe screen so SDC can have a safer money shot turn...

So long as your buff spells are going out on someone I don't see why your entire army needs to be able to use it. Thus to me Spell Ward becomes gravy because I don't care about the downside.


Oh btw, if Shae ever gets access to PKs I'm going to weep for joy. Definitely one of the top units I wish I could run with him.

[NEoJoe]

I disagree about the UA and Mini Feat. Not sure what scenarios you have run into where they are too spread out, but 3 of mine on Mini Feat and a charge destroyed Drago. I charged some others in same turn and killed while running my banner into Behemoth's base to block charge lane.

The UA is almost a must as they become much more average in their utility without them. Personally I don't like them in any for other then Full squad plus UA.

Connie has assassinated Karchev and pMakeda with me moving a single Precursor Knight into melee with her target.

Drago isn't exactly tough. What I meant was that they don't have reach, and charging a heavy with guys that don't have reach means you only get three or four in a good scenario. I dunno. I've played them with the UA plenty of times and haven't exactly found them to be a prime heavy wrecking force. They have a mini feat that makes them weaponmasters, so the possibility is there. The UA is not a must though. Not in my opinion.

The UA is not almost a must because the unit functions fine without it, and costs less. Especially in the Constance example, where the UA doesn't do much more to facilitate her personal run beyond adding another guy she can flank with.

Admittedly, the psychological value of their potential weaponmaster run might be worth it. But, in the Constance case, that makes them more likely to get focused down since they're her Flank fodder AND might hit like trucks.

I hope none of this is being confused with "don't take the UA" because the UA is, in fact, fine. I just think it's worth considering them without it, and being realistic in your needs of the unit.

[Ger]

What I meant was that they don't have reach, and charging a heavy with guys that don't have reach means you only get three or four in a good scenario.

Your thoughts have me re-thinking PKs without UA as a solid option in some cases. Still I wanted to point out that mercs are lacking in reach weapon masters. It's not like we have bane thralls to compare them to. What we do have is a plethora of reach in cheap melee beatstick heavies and Steelhead Halbs. The jacks are more important because they can charge in after PKs to finish a job if 3-4 of them are not enough.


By the way I think PKs are outright better then Nyss in terms of melee output. P+S 9 weapon master vs P+S 12 base is 3 points. Average rounded down for 1d6. Blessed further amps the potential damage. Accuracy wise baseline MaT 7 + Blessed is so crazy better then MaT 6. Even without the UA, PKs are going to be more reliable in their melee damage. All for a 5/8 vs 7/10 PC profile. (The Nyss cost increase is due to innate pathfinder and excellent shooting. Also Hunter for forest charges.) (UA being only 2 points mean they are 7/10 with him)


Note: I'm purposely ignoring Forge Guard. They are a much closer comparison and the real contender in many merc lists for similar use as PKs.

[absent]

That is just apples to oranges, really badly.

Also steelhead cav have reach and weapon master-ish

[MagnustheJust]

Not to mention the fact that quicken on the Halbies means they have the same threat range as the Heavy Cav. ...

[jwai]

For what it's worth, I'm finding that Steelheads struggle a bit in melee after charging with only base MAT5 unless you get that Flank (not always possible!). Precursors having MAT7 all the time could be useful, although Forge Guard also have this too.

[Mr. Uncanny]

This discussion just makes me want a UA for forge guard.

[bStyker]

Ger raised some very strong arguments for Precursors, and I've never really thought about taking them w/o the UA NeoJoe, so that's something new to consider. Overall, I think they're quite decent for their points cost, and it's the Ranked attacks & Blessed that really make them shine. Being MAT 7, POW 12, and Blessed means that they're actually melee power-houses, capable of dealing with almost any threat on the charge.

Since they've got Spell Ward, they're going to be a little bit more niche, as it's a very strong ability against some forces, and can be rather inconsequential in others.

I like the idea of Halberdiers out in front (max), Precursors in the back (max w UA) and Forgeguard in the rear (max) for a total of 24pts. Bring a couple support pieces, a Jack or two, and you've got a really competent supportive force. Ger's idea of having the Precursors charge whatever the Halberdiers can't focus on, while also having the Forgeguard ready to charge anything that goes into the Precursors (due to Ranked Attacks) means that you've got a great clean-up with 32 bodies that can inflict major pain on enemies. Steelheads and Forgeguard could take the buffs. I could see this working with Blaize, Damiano, Ashlynn, and heck, well, pretty much anyone who can support them in the slightest.

Again, PKs are a little niche, but when they work, they work very well.

Best,

[NEoJoe]

And, depending on your support, that's pretty character light as well. That sounds like a commodity.

[baronvonchaos]

Honestly if you're going to run all melee, you're going to get waffle stomped by a heavy ranged list (Rapid fire people and snipers). PK's with shield wall "ignore" most blast damage and the spell ward just helps. Also, you can absorb charges so much better with either Tough or +1Def and Terror from Rhupert and their shield wall. Unless you have a scythean coming or a Iron/Wild Aggression'd reach thresher model coming in, you'll do really well.

Average ranged attacks don't do well against Arm 18. Not invincible, but still tougher to kill than ARM 13 SH Halberdiers.

[jwai]

I'm thinking of trying out a 35 point list along the lines of this:

Ashlynn
Nomad

Precursor Knights + UA
Gun Mages + UA

Rhupert
Gorman
eEiryss

That so far leaves 10 points for something else, but I'm not sure what exactly to bring.

[Ashcans]

Give the Gun Mages a Mule (8) to marshal, and bring Sylys Wyshnalyrr (2) to help Ashlynn out. The Mule is great with Ashlynn's feat and the UA's Rune Shot, and Sylys is a big help to Ashlynn for the free upkeep, extra range on her spells, and some bonus dice if you're using Gallows or Twister.

[Thamarite Merc]

You got Ashlynn, you got the Dude, you got 10pts left and still got no Mule marshalled by the Dude, and you don't know what to take? Hmm, let me think....


Ooops,a ninja

[Ger]

An alternative to the mule might be x2 min Steelhead Halbs. Though I think the Mule may be the better choice.