Butcher: The Obliterator?

[MathPasta]

So has anybody tried this?

Since I realized that the Butcher can't run jacks well (Honestly nobody can unless they have lots of focus for attacks), and that Full trottle was a trap spell I though "Well. What am I going to do with all this leftover focus?"

So I though "What about obliteration?". But then there is the problem of low accuracy and low range.

So then our wonderful pet NailWisher to the rescue!

With Nailwisher, I can upkeep a spell (+1 Focus), give it +2 range, and make it higher accuracy without being forced to spend more focus. Since the damage bonus is to everything inside the AOE that makes the spell allot more appealing. Essentially Range 12 Focus 6+9 POW 15+9 with Blast damage 8+9 to everything in AOE 4. And if you want, you can boost damage or accuracy with the extra focus so you can do a Delicious 15+12.5 damage. Or support a Maurader.

How does this sound?

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

Full Throttle isn't a trap spell. Obliteration is.

It's called a trap because in order to use it, you have to be way up field, blow 4 focus to cast, and likely another 2 focus for boosts. That leaves pButcher really far forward with no focus for camping. If that one spell fails to kill your opponent's caster, pButcher will likely die in return.

It is an absolutely valid strategy, one that is very much worth keeping in your back pocket. But it will typically be a last-ditch effort, or very carefully set up with other models that will be charging the enemy caster under feat.

I don't consider Full Throttle a trap spell because you can use it while 12" back from your jacks, or 14" away from their targets (assuming you do it under feat turn). It's still risky as you'll typically cast it for 3, and have allocated 3 focus to the jack that you need to get 'er done. But the extra distance you are away gives you better odds, and have Jacks charge up like that is typically going to be something you're doing against heavy targets, other jacks, colossals, etc... so your opponent's caster is likely even further back.

I played a lot of pButcher w/ Wishnailer too, I didn't wind up feeling it was that great of combo though. I virtually never upkeep Iron Flesh, I always want my Kayazy running their full 12 and being able to charge. So I cast and drop IF each turn. Sometimes it can be nice to rotate Fury, but it's typically not critical (usually, the turn I cast fury is the turn the game ends). I found that the war dog is still pButchers best friend. If anyone does get slippery infantry through/around your lines, counter charge can save your baccon, block charge lanes, and grant you the extra defence to have a shot at surviving the assault

-Rick

[Jake the Dog]

Full Throttle, a trap spell? You are kidding, right?

[MathPasta]

Full Throttle isn't a trap spell. Obliteration is.

Its not worth it. Even with our jacks hitting 100% of the time, the results are still lackluster for the points. Im just saying cause If im not running jacks, and I got the extra focus, obliterate sounds good.

Full Throttle, a trap spell? You are kidding, right?

Nope. Its a gimmick spell. You think "Wow, now I can suddenly run my jacks". Well for their points and focus cost they still do lackluster damage.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

The point of Full Throttle is to get a powerful jack, loaded on focus, a free charge and boosted attack rolls.

That means Beast-09 is going to have 4 boost attack rolls to fish for crit stationary on a target. Same with the Juggy. Kodiak is all but garunteed a smash and grab attack. An the Conquest would get boosted attack rolls on everything he attacks with a sweep attack.

When I play pButcher, Full Throttle is the backup plan.

Plan A) Run kayazy, cast IF, run/charge kayazy, cast IF, pop feat, cast fury, kayazy pop minifeat, charge enemy caster, win game.

Plan B) Kayazy got wiped, open path to caster, cast full throttle, Fury if Beast-09 is in range, pop feat, Beast-09 charges/tramples, buys three boosted attack rolls at POW 19, win game.

Plan C) Wait for enemy caster to get within 10" of pButcher. Clear charge lane, get path finder from Saxon Orrik, pop feat, charge, win game.

-Rick

[Seventhprophet]

It still blows my mind when people bash the effectiveness of pButcher with 3 melee jacks. The occasional Full Thottle is super effective in the right circumstances. Personally, I have never found a time where I thought 4 focus from butcher would be best spent on obliterate. But since I have never cast it, I am not an authority on if it works or not. Try it out in a few games and let us know how it works

[MathPasta]

The thing is Mat 6 is actually NOT THAT BAD. It means you miss almost exactly 1/4th of the attacks on the average defense of 12. If your lucky you miss with your fist, if not your axe.

I found that depending on the defence of the enemy, full throttling is a waste.

Full Throttling and then giving a juggy 3 focus is less effective then Giving 2 Juggies 3 focus against Def 12 for example.

[marasaidw]

I have found a good time to use obliterate. Once there was a unit of zealots under mini-feat grouped close together and I killed four with an obliteration. I was using wyshnallyrn that game though (I don't have the dog yet). I also used full throttle to seal the deal on eKreoss though. One jack cleaered the charge lane and a kodiak with fury and a few focus sealed the deal.

[John of Arc]

I agree that its a trap against DEF 12. You're correct that its better to just allocate and buy more attacks. It shines more against warcasters, though. Full Throttle means you'll get four boosted attacks with your main weapon, one of which gets boosted damage. That's actually more damage than two Juggernauts with three focus, assuming they'd both need to charge and boost their attack rolls.

I don't like Obliteration with the Butcher because I'd rather camp and move closer to my opponent, preferably while shouting "I'M COMING FOR YOU!". On eMagnus, though, I love it. That's because he has access to an Arc Node. When boosted by Sylys, its totally worth the focus to cast if you've got the right target in front of you. I'm just worried about dying afterward, which isn't a problem with Magnus.

[KhaosSpectyr]

if your gonna just blow yur focus away, why not cast full throttle (its not a trap), and load behemoth with 3 focus??

[ScottEBJJ]

Full Throttle is only a trap spell in regards to list building. It has perfectly viable and valuable applications in game. It is just a trap to build your list towards it's use.

[Col_Festus]

What do you do with the extra focus? Camp it.

[Revamp]

When i run butcher with full throttle i do it the same way i do it with Karchev and Unearthly rage. I run a kodiak, a Berzerker, and Torch at 35, at 50 i add a Jugger and upgrade the zerker to Drago. The secret to full throttle is you have to use things that have a ton of attacks before they start buying. Thats what really makes it shine.

[philipcryx]

jesus pButcher runs jacks fine. He has a bunch of focus to spare depending on what you have planned that round since he does not have a bunch of spells. I dont see a problem with 2+ jacks. I have ran with a jugg and destroyer and it worked well.

[Ganso]

I consider Full Throttle an awesome spell, but sadly I don't think Butcher_1 can make a list out of it for the following reasons:

• He has no way of speeding up the jacks. So the list is confined to running at stock SPD 4 (with all that entails).
• Running a melee army without Pathfinder is asking for trouble. One or two jacks is manageable, but 3 or more and you have the majority of your list bogged down by rough terrain and unable to charge past obstacles which, depending on your meta, your opponent will exploit.

Full Throttle, as awesome as it is, would be down right game breaking with Harkevich for example

Sadly for Butcher though, I think the smartest move is to upkeep your spells and camp the focus until something juicy comes within 10 inches of him (hopefully Saxon Orrick is somewhere near to help out our jolly fat man)

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

The thing is Mat 6 is actually NOT THAT BAD. It means you miss almost exactly 1/4th of the attacks on the average defense of 12. If your lucky you miss with your fist, if not your axe.

I found that depending on the defence of the enemy, full throttling is a waste.

Full Throttling and then giving a juggy 3 focus is less effective then Giving 2 Juggies 3 focus against Def 12 for example.

Lets see...

2 Juggy with 3 focus vs DEF 12, ARM 18 target with 30 wounds (ie: Cygnar Defender):

Juggy #1
Charge (2 focus remaining)
Axe Attack 77% chance to hit, 11% to crit, 11.5 damage (effectively 9)
Fist Attack 77% to hit, 4 damage (effectively 3)
Axe Attack (1 focus remaining) 77% chance to hit, 11% chance to crit, 8 damage (effectively 6)
Axe Attack (1 focus remaining) 77% chance to hit, 11% chance to crit, 8 damage (effectively 6)

Juggy #2
Charge (2 focus remaining)
Axe Attack 77% chance to hit, 11% to crit, 11.5 damage (effectively 9)
Fist Attack 77% to hit, 4 damage (effectively 3)
Axe Attack (1 focus remaining) 77% chance to hit, 11% chance to crit, 8 damage (effectively 6)
Axe Attack (1 focus remaining) 77% chance to hit, 11% chance to crit, 8 damage (effectively 6)

Total: 48 effective , 29.5% chance to be frozen.

DEF 12, ARM 18 is pure gravey for a Juggy. 6 focus is overkill. After the first jack goes in, it should just be a matter of the second jack hitting on his charge attack to finish the beast. You can keep those other 2 points of Focus for yourself, or hand out another to Juggy 2 just for safety sake.

How about 1 Juggy with 3 focus and Full Throttle vs the same target:

Juggy #1
Charge (3 focus remaining)
Axe attack 95% chance to hit, 40% chance to crit, 11.5 damage (effectively 11)
Fist attack 95% chance to hit, 4 damage (effectively 4)
Axe attack (2 focus remaining) 95% chance to hit, 40% chance to crit, 8 damage (effectively 8)
Axe attack (1 focus remaining) 95% chance to hit, 40% chance to crit, 8 damage (effectively 8)
Axe attack (0 focus remaining) 95% chance to hit, 40% chance to crit, 8 damage (effectively 8)

Total: 39 effective, 87% chance to be frozen.

So now 1 Juggy is up field, and he has taken out that same defender, true, not with quite the same overkill, but well over enough (average dice would have gotten it done in 2 focus). Additionally, you're all but garunteed that it'll be frozen if it does some how survive the assault.


Where you'll really see a huge boon from Full Throttle is when you have to deal with high defence targets. Lets say the Juggy is going up against a Ret light with Defenders Ward on it. A DEF 15 ARM 18 Jack with 26 wounds (ie: Devout):

Juggy #1
Charge (2 focus remaining)
Axe attack 27% with no boost , 75% boosted (1 focus remaining), 30% chance to crit, 11.5 damage (effectively 9)
Fist attack boosted 75% (0 focus remaining), 4 damage (3 effective)

Juggy #2
Charge (2 focus remaining)
Axe attack 27% with no boost , 75% boosted (1 focus remaining), 30% chance to crit, 11.5 damage (effectively 9)
Fist attack boosted 75% (0 focus remaining), 4 damage (3 effective)

Total: 24 effective, 50% chance to be frozen.

So right there, two Juggies charge in, and fail to kill a lowly devout. Let's try that again, 1 Juggy, with 3 focus and full throttle:

Juggy #1
Charge (3 focus remaining)
Axe Attack (auto boosted) 75% chance to hit, 30% chance to crit, 11.5 damage (effectively 9)
Fist attack (auto boosted) 75% chance to hit, 4 damage (effectively 3)
Axe attack (2 focus remaining) 75% chance to hit, 30% chance to crit, 8 damage (effectively 6)
Axe attack (1 focus remaining) 75% chance to hit, 30% chance to crit, 8 damage (effectively 6)
Axe attack (0 focus remaining) 75% chance to hit, 30% chance to crit, 8 damage (effectively 6)

Total: 30 effective, 76% chance to be frozen.

So 1 Juggy under full throttle not only does 125% of the two juggies charging fully loaded, but has a 50% better chance at leaving the target stationary in addition. Heck, on average he could finish the Devout off with only 5 focus total instead of the 6 focus the two juggies ate and left it standing.


Full throttle is an incredibly powerful spell. But you have to know when to use it. And in this case, it's almost always better to only have 1 jack up in a sacraficial position. If you ever want to make a Khador player really happy, charge two juggies up like that when they have Behemoth in counter charge position. Big B is capable of wrecking two Khador heavies in a turn, so long as you put them right next to eachother like that

-Rick

[binjuice]

Thanks for the number crunching.

I like the idea of having boosted attack roles on all our jacks from 1 spell. I have run butcher a few times (had the obliteration caster kill, had to walk around a forest, they thought they were safe on the other side with some lights and infantry in the way, feat, cast, boost to hit, boost damage, p+s 15 + 4 dice on ehaley)

But I find that IF and full throttle with a minimum of 2 jack on the field is what makes Butcher shine. He only needs one large unit of infantry (Kayazy, IFP, WGIDS) That can utilize IF in the early stages of the game and to swap to fury when needed. 2 jacks, because full throttle is great for buying attacks, but on 2 jacks, against anything with def higher than 11 is worth it, 2 charging jacks - 2 focus, 2 initial boosted to hits, 2 focus. All this for 3 focus, this doesn't include the second initial attacks which again would be a further 2 focus. Because guaranteeing the hit on the enemy is generally more important than doing the damage (as even wiffing the damage rolls with khador jacks gets a descent damage roll). I wif so many charge attacks by 1 or 2 on average defence with my jacks and consequently don't wreck the target. Full throttle, from 20" away allows for that to be negated. 2 jacks under Full throttle getting charges or tramples (which are all boosted too) is fantastic. all that and you still have enough focus to give an extra attack to both and enough to upkeep fury or IF. 2 juggies with 3 focus each doesn't Let you do that.

I have not read through that so please don't mind the grammar issues.

[PG_Draxos]

I nearly won a game today at a tourney because of Full Throttle. I gave a spriggan 3 and trampled it up to Haley with boosted attack rolls.* Yeah not a bad spell.

I get that you don't want 3 or 4 jacks with him but 2 isn't bad if they are there for a reason and 2 spriggans with him under feat is in no way bad and they will get there eventually with mechanics. Also you don't get the Dog who he wants, at least for me.
*I was a half inch short

[Tyr852]

I'll just go with what Rick said in the second post as it's pretty spot on about Obliteration .. although I did use it to Hadoken my friends paladin solo that's immune to everything but that ^_^.

[Skylifter]

In my (limited) experience, pButcher does run jacks quite well. He does benefit from using jacks that can run on their own (but who doesn't) and he even works well with Destroyers. The thing is, you don't always have to cast Fury on turn 1 and then upkeep it. It is a lot better to cast it later, when you are sure that upkeep will actually do something next round and not be spent on a model that is too far away while the one jack who can charge next turn hasn't got it. So you keep up IF on something, possibly Butcher himself, and you've got 5 focus to hand out. That is plenty if you run two jacks or two and a berserker. As for pButcher wanting the focus for himself, that is usually most important when most of your jacks have already been scrapped anyway.

Now Full Throttle is anything but a trap. It is one if you rest your whole strategy on it, but then it is not the spell that is a trap but your self-imposed limit on perception is. You have to remember that FT doesn't just let you charge for free, but also grants boosted attack rolls - even if you didn't charge. So if you didn't get the alpha strike, but were charged instead, which is likely given pButcher's no speed boost attitude, you can still cast it to gain the boosted attack rolls. Combine this with pButcher's feat (and possibly Fury from the turn before, maybe dropping IF), and you have quite a beating in store for your opponent. You can still give on or two focus to your heavy hitter to buy attacks.

Obliteration on the other hand is rather situational. In most cases I'd rather go with keeping that focus, since I'll probably be within 10 inch of some enemies with my caster and I'd like my ARM to be 20+ that turn. If there's only that one unit camping an objective and it'll make the difference between victory and defeat, sure, then Obliteration will be perfectly fine, and I'll even boost to hit. But even then a bad dice roll can ruin the day, so.. meh.

[Steamwitch]

full throttle imo is for crit fishing ice axe, destroyer axe, decimator for auto hits, kodiak, ivans claw, dragos axes, ect. Our jacks have a hard time with def 14+ and full throttle is a good problem solver and running 3 jacks means its 100% gain as you are allocateinf 3 just to make them charge? Why not make them hit/crit more too?

[MoN4RcH]

Both spells are situational, FT is great for making disruption not so bad as well as the above ideas posed. Obliteration is even more situational but can be good especially if you go for a last ditch assasination run and feat then charge a model then use obliteration for a big threat range. Reinholt + Wishnailer increase this gamble more but 3pts.

[Kuarnix]

I think I've cast Obliteration once or twice, and it's usually when I'm screwed at the end of the game. The only time it worked was because my opponent got a bit too certain of winning and put Ravyn (I think) up close and behind a wall (and out of charge range) or something ridiculous like that. Only had Butcher, figured I may as well move up and try to get her since I'd lost. Rolled ungodly high, and one-shotted her on 4d6 damage.


Definitely wouldn't try to make that shot again.

[OrsusSmash]

I've had access to Obliteration for awhile now with Thags1, and as neat as the spell is, it's usually a huge sink for little payback. And that's in Hordes, where I can still push all my beasts after I blow 4+ Fury casting a spell.

It's not at all a bad "hail mary" to have in your back pocket - with Sylas you can pull off an amusing "ranged" assassination with Butcher1 using Obliteration and his Blunderbuss on his feat turn if you're really desperate - but in my experience Butcher1 is usually busier allocating focus, swapping upkeeps, or camping for survival.

Also, I wanted to echo what others have said (particularly ThatRickGuy) about Full Throttle being a "trap" spell: it's not something you should just be casting willy-nilly, but you can get some amazing returns from it. I just don't think people build Butcher1 warjack heavy enough to take advantage of it, which is understandable since he leaves them cold on threat ranges. I'm hoping to try out a multiple clamjack build with him once the Demolisher finally manifests; I've had good luck with the Devastator, so I think a pair (or trio) of them would do alright.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

I once killed Skarre with pButchers gun.

Which has evoked the same response from just about everyone:

"pButcher has a gun!?!?"

-Rick

[OrsusSmash]

I once killed Skarre with pButchers gun.

Which has evoked the same response from just about everyone:

"pButcher has a gun!?!?"

-Rick

It's a wonderful moment.

I fondly remember the time I used Butcher1's Blunderbuss to finish off Gaspy1 back in the Mk. 1 days. Not everyone is going to be kind enough to walk into Butcher's melee threat range, so sometimes you need to give them incentive.

EDIT:

Off topic, but my favorite part of Butcher2 is that he still has that Blunderbuss!

[whats82]

Without speedbuff, chances are also that you're only getting 1 jack onto each individual target, so full throttle let you pile a lot more effectiveness into a single jack than 3 focus allocation limit.

[Gothgar]

pButcher should have had mobility....

[tehhelios]

Get some mechanics, not many things 1 shot khador jacks, just dont take multiple heavy hitters at once!
Full throttle is pretty sweet if u happend to loose cortex during that round. Repair them and atleast you get boosted hit rolls and can charge, feat gives them damage.

I like 2 jacks at 35p, would prob go 3 at 50.

[Sinsation]

Since I realized that the Butcher can't run jacks well (Honestly nobody can unless they have lots of focus for attacks), and that Full trottle was a trap spell I though "Well. What am I going to do with all this leftover focus?"

I don't know your meta and such, but have you actually built a list designed for multiple jacks and full throttle with Butcher 1? It can work damn good. Built one without going overboard to intentionally sabotage yourself, tried it out, and gave it good solid effort and practice?

Had an escalation tournament recently with Butcher 1 for 25-35-50-75 (irusk 1 as backup), with beast/spriggan at 25-35 and beast-spriggan-kodiak-juggernaut at 50 points. Full throttle was boss. Full throttle and feat? Your targets quickly become paste on the paint of your Big Red Machine. Obliterator and gun could be useful for a sneaky feat assassination, but just such an investment of focus when jacks are so much more fun.

@orsus I like the demolisher idea. If you're willing to spend the extra focus the turn before to throw fury on him, he's a fully throttled arm 25, pow 19 two fisted sphere of death

[MathPasta]

As in Mathematicaly the damage is subpar.

[Frege]

As in Mathematicaly the damage is subpar.

What do you mean by that just out of interest?

[Sinsation]

What do you mean by that just out of interest?

Seconded. The juggernaut is one of the top models, point for point, in damage output, and the Butcher has some of the best damage buffs.

[OrsusSmash]

@orsus I like the demolisher idea. If you're willing to spend the extra focus the turn before to throw fury on him, he's a fully throttled arm 25, pow 19 two fisted sphere of death

Back when the Forces of Khador book came out, I was messing around with all of the theme lists, and I got stuck on Butcher1's theme list for awhile, because it was very interesting. One of the things I found that worked really well in the list was the Devastator - his theme list has the exact same problem as his normal lists (i.e. can't speed anything up) so I found that having ARM 25 warjacks were extremely handy.

ARM 25 won't save you from everything, and Devastators/Demolishers are still prone to getting slammed/thrown around, but for the most part they can tank anything that they run into, and be in good enough shape to retaliate next turn.

One fun thing to try is Butcher1's theme, with as many Manhunters and clamjacks as you can cram into it. Here's a list I'd love to run:

Tier 4: Heart of Darkness
50+6 points, 24 models
The Butcher of Khardov

* Berserker

* 2x Devastator

* War Dog

5 Man-O-War Shocktroopers
5 Man-O-War Shocktroopers
4x Manhunter
Widowmakers
Yuri the Axe

Tons of armor, almost all of it is in your face from the start of the game (Shocktroopers run 12" first turn, all the warjacks AD then run, the Manhunters and Widowmakers AD normally,) and it's actually still pretty maneuverable. You could always swap out the Widowmakers to upgrade the Berserker to a Kodiak and toss in the Widowmaker Marksman, or min the Shocktroopers to do all kinds of other stuff.

The point is: having big 'ol spheres of ARM 25 show up at the mid-line of the table turn one is unpleasant, and Butcher1 has enough juice between his Feat, Fury, and Full Throttle to have the Devastators actually be scary against enemy heavies. And it's really fun to wolfpack enemy heavies with 5 Manhunters.