A Warmachine/Hordes series/anime

[profparm]

Being a Wargamer falls into roughly the same subcultural category as the Anime/Manga subculture in the eyes of the rest of the USA. Both are incomprehensible to those on the outside. Its the same with every subculture, particularly gamer subcultures.

I can honestly say that I absolutely hate the anime style for most of what I've seen of it, and in the gamer/nerd group of people I hang out with, I am pretty much the only one that can't stand it; at least half of the rest of the community are fans, and almost all of them have at least some anime they really like. (Edit: My point here is that I'm agreeing with Decade, and honestly I think Anime is even less of a niche subculture than wargaming.)

Personally, I can't stand the art style. Chibi (which I didn't know it had a name other than just "anime") is a VERY large part of it for me, but a lot of the animation style just doesn't appeal to me. Oddly, while I couldn't make it through Cowboy Bebop or Fullmetal Alchemist, both Avatar the Last Airbender and Samurai Jack (not technically anime but definitely very heavily influenced by anime) are shows I enjoy, and, as has been mentioned, something done similarly to Avatar for the Iron Kingdoms could be very cool (especially if you do less of the kiddy episodes). I think it would be best done by a young person in possibly Llael discovering their a Warcaster, and then traveling around the various nations trying to learn, focusing on a different nation each season, with Cryx revealing themselves as the bigger threat than Khador later on, causing the warcasters to go to the Nightmare Kingdoms in the final season. But this would also focus almost exclusively on Eastern Immoren and not involve Hordes as much.

As far as other cartoons I really enjoyed, Justice League Unlimited, if they've either gotten better at mixing CGI/human animation or just don't use the CGI parts, was a show I both enjoyed the art style and maturity of.

[MagnustheJust]

We had a similar thread several months back, and I still back the concept of the Iron Kindoms storyline through Reinholdt's eyes...

[Decade]

Lamentably, this is a fair representation of what happens to most anime that gets licensed for syndication, even the stuff that's not entirely aimed at kids. I feel that its this kind of thing that has made the medium unfairly reviled.


Besides, animation is merely a medium to tell a story. The reason I like anime is that there's a variety of generes that the medium gets applied to: action, adventure, horror, comedy, etc. I.e. not just stuff aimed at kids. Personally, I think Pokemon and the like have done a lot to misrepresent what anime is. But, lets also be honest here, Pokemon is a show aimed at kids in the 4-10 yrs old category. The fact that its one of the most well known animes out there is proof that it works as a kid's show. And if the IK were done in that way, then, by all means, I would be on your side in saying whoever decided to do it like that deserves to be staked out in a field and left for the crows. But there are other series, such as, say, Akira, Bio-Booster Armor Guyver, Tokyo Majin, or Afro Samurai, that show that anime, and the animation medium in general, has a capacity to do the IK world justice.

[x3tsniper]

That's sort of the problem - who would the anime follow? If 40k did it, it'd be easy to follow the Space Marines because that's sort of the lore focus.

How dare you sir. It is all about the ghosts!
In reality, I can't see this happening. Sure it would be pretty cool for a while, but how many episodes could you stand to watch knowing nobody important was going to die? I suspect it is one of the main reasons they haven't done a book series. I haven't played warhammer table top, but I suspect their games don't follow individual fluff leaders like our warcasters. Mostly just generic leaders who they can paint up to be specific people? I have read most of the warhammer books, and they have no problem regularly killing off characters in there. I think they have a couple books dedicated to the fact that the main character dies at the end.

[profparm]

A lot of the Space Marine Chapter books actually focus on one character who is a Special Character in the game (and thus does not die during the book).

They also focus a lot more on fighting than the fluff does for this game, IMO. But then again, you have to fill 200 pages with something....

Of note, there are some books that have nothing to do with characters you see in the game except maybe a small cameo (the first Dark Angels book is a great example of this), and they tend to be on the better side of the Warhammer 40k books. Well, those and the stuff with Commisar Cain, but that's because he's just Blackadder in the 40k universe.

[MagnustheJust]

. But there are other series, such as, say, Akira, Bio-Booster Armor Guyver, Tokyo Majin, or Afro Samurai, that show that anime, and the animation medium in general, has a capacity to do the IK world justice.

Umm.. StarBlazers, Gai King, Grandizer, Macross/Robotech, Cowboy Bebop, Tri-Gun.

You forgot these...

[Decade]

Umm.. StarBlazers, Gai King, Grandizer, Macross/Robotech, Cowboy Bebop, Tri-Gun.

You forgot these...

Not forgotten, but figured the ones I mentioned were more appropriate to the point I was making: that the medium can be dark, violent, and gritty, not just cute and silly (not that any of those are cute and silly).

[Matthaeus]

In other words only anime can do it right and anything else that is not anime is just western made piece of crap. Got it.

That is not what he said. Don't put people in boxes like "otaku", that's aggravating and simplistic.
See, I had tried to put it in a diplomatic way earlier :

"anime" ultimately is only a foreign word for "animation", allowing for widely varied styles and interpretations.

which apparently did not work, as people kept coming with sweeping generalisations about the medium. Because it's much easier to be agressively dismissive of what you don't like, I suppose. Anyway, he was merely developing on the same idea with a more firm tone.

I'll say it clearly : there's an animated series for everybody. The medium is just too diverse for it not to be the case. I realise I'm paraphrasing Decade, same wavelength

[Octavius_Maximus]

That is not what he said. Don't put people in boxes like "otaku", that's aggravating and simplistic.

Actually.... im not so sure.

Quote here:

I personally think an anime version of the IK would be one of the only ways to do the world justice.

But then there is this:

"anime" ultimately is only a foreign word for "animation", allowing for widely varied styles and interpretations.

Just because a word used to mean something doesnt mean its new combination means something entirely different.

I mean, does Trivia mean "three Roads"? (latin)
Does aweful or awesome mean 'as related to the visage of god or his minions'?

No, they mean entirely different things now.

which apparently did not work, as people kept coming with sweeping generalisations about the medium. Because it's much easier to be agressively dismissive of what you don't like, I suppose. Anyway, he was merely developing on the same idea with a more firm tone.

I'll say it clearly : there's an animated series for everybody. The medium is just too diverse for it not to be the case. I realise I'm paraphrasing Decade, same wavelength

Yes, but i could make a rebuttal for that in that every single medium has, encoded within its art styles and idiom, certain cultural connections which change the meaning of the text. This is part of the connection to the culture that created that style, and also part connection to our cultural understanding of that style.

Anime has certain conventions which i seriously don't like. I think that anime styles and conventions wouldnt be able to portray the IK in the right tone or theme.

[Decade]

Okay, then lets come at this from another angle. You don't like anime. That's your choice, and your right. Would you be willing to agree that an animated version of the IK, supervised by PP, with the production bible writen by Doug Seacat, would be a good way to bring the IK to the screen (big or small)?

[computertrucker]

A good CGI movie yes. An HBO series I could go for, or a live action movie. However I have to say no to anime. Used to like it when I was a kid but not so much now. Would not do the genre justice and would not fit it either.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Warmachine is already an anime, with Stryker and Haley as the two main protagonists gathering "nakama" (like Vlad, Kreoss, etc) in order to defeat the big bad (Asphyxious? Toruk?).

I forgot about this post.

I dont get your logic.

I mean Stryker and Haley don't really like each other at all. They arent together, they are generally fighting at different ends of the war.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Okay, then lets come at this from another angle. You don't like anime. That's your choice, and your right. Would you be willing to agree that an animated version of the IK, supervised by PP, with the production bible writen by Doug Seacat, would be a good way to bring the IK to the screen (big or small)?

Your kind of missing my point. I don't like anime, but also anime isnt a good medium to express IK.

Im actually hesitant to have any other kinds of drawn medium, mainly because those mediums usually remove large amounts of detail from characters and objects to preserve time with drawing large sections of combat.

Im looking at Warmachine artwork while im writing this, and I dont think any drawn medium would do the amount of detail present within a battlefield on the IK. thats why i prefer 3D imaging mediums because it actually removes large parts of that work.

[lastspartacus]

It could follow a budding Jr Warcaster. I'm loving the way it looks in my head, the cross anime/3d style with clanking computer generated jacks clunking around. This probably won't happen, so I don't want to think about it, because then I'll be sad.

[merryprankster]

I 'd love an animated movie in the style of FF:The Spirits Within or something similar. I like anime (well, I like Cowboy Bebop, Record of Lodoss War and Samurai Champloo) but it just seems an odd fit for Warmachine.

[thebarbalag]

Warmachine: Academy - follows a class of journeymen warcasters through training as the Lion's Coup erupts. They see the big events from below, they're not Stryker or the like, but they could still be compelling, and give a new perspective on the IK conflicts. Getting separate assignments, in different regions, they communicate by letter, and in big, climactic moments they get pulled back together. Throw in a star-crossed romance, someone who abandons the Swan to become a merc, following Magnus, big deaths, the big battle in Sul. Could be seriously epic.

[Decade]

Your kind of missing my point. I don't like anime, but also anime isnt a good medium to express IK.

Im actually hesitant to have any other kinds of drawn medium, mainly because those mediums usually remove large amounts of detail from characters and objects to preserve time with drawing large sections of combat.

Im looking at Warmachine artwork while im writing this, and I dont think any drawn medium would do the amount of detail present within a battlefield on the IK. thats why i prefer 3D imaging mediums because it actually removes large parts of that work.

Okay, wait, you're looking at the artwork, which is a drawing, and you're saying that no drawing can properly capture the feel of the IK like that drawing? If I were an AI, my cpu would short out form the paradox you just made.

And you're missing my point. I'm asking, throw out the entire anime aspect of this thing, and go strictly to animated. There were plenty of animation studios in the past that operated in the USA (not quite so many anymore), that I feel could do the IK justice: Warnerbros, Paramount, Renkin/Bass (sadly defunct), Lucas Arts, Disney (though the thought of that makes my stomach turn), Pixar. Any of those studios could do a well rendered, highly detailed animated series or film trilogy for the IK.

And a CGI version on par with Transformers:Prime or Pixar's newest project Brave in terms of graphical detail would work. The reason I think that doing it in an animated format is a the way to go is that even with things like the prequel Starwars trilogy, when you have a human interacting with CGI characters, there is a disconnection because half the party involved is not actually there. If they both exist in the same world by being either both actually there, or both animated/rendered, then the scene lets me more easily suspend my disbelief.

[Sul-Menite]

I forgot about this post.

I dont get your logic.

I mean Stryker and Haley don't really like each other at all. They arent together, they are generally fighting at different ends of the war.

I've never gotten the impression that Stryker and Haley don't like each other, where are you getting that from?

[Octavius_Maximus]

Okay, wait, you're looking at the artwork, which is a drawing, and you're saying that no drawing can properly capture the feel of the IK like that drawing? If I were an AI, my cpu would short out form the paradox you just made.

Then you need to upgrade your CPU, because there is a massive difference to drawn stationary art and drawn moving art. Items of practicality mean that things that are drawn are generally far simplified.

And you're missing my point. I'm asking, throw out the entire anime aspect of this thing, and go strictly to animated. There were plenty of animation studios in the past that operated in the USA (not quite so many anymore), that I feel could do the IK justice: Warnerbros, Paramount, Renkin/Bass (sadly defunct), Lucas Arts, Disney (though the thought of that makes my stomach turn), Pixar. Any of those studios could do a well rendered, highly detailed animated series or film trilogy for the IK.

Alright, now you are talking about 3D Graphically animated, then yes. Ive stated that since the beginning. That is something i would believe would be best.

And a CGI version on par with Transformers:Prime or Pixar's newest project Brave in terms of graphical detail would work. The reason I think that doing it in an animated format is a the way to go is that even with things like the prequel Starwars trilogy, when you have a human interacting with CGI characters, there is a disconnection because half the party involved is not actually there. If they both exist in the same world by being either both actually there, or both animated/rendered, then the scene lets me more easily suspend my disbelief.

Then do it entirely graphically.

I've never gotten the impression that Stryker and Haley don't like each other, where are you getting that from?

Just occasionally Stryker listening to Haley talk about how easy everything else should be because shes faced Cryx, and thus Khador and Protectorate are easy and everyone else is just being terrible.

Not necessarily a strong dislike, just, "ugh, Cryx arent the worst thing out there. Get over it, haley."

[Septimus]

I'd like to see a rotoscopic Ralph Bakshi-ian interpretation of Hordes vs. Warmachine.

Hell, I just want to see Wizards again.

[bouncymischa]

Hell, I just want to see Wizards again.

"I'm going to show you a trick Mom taught me when you weren't around. Nothing up this sleeve..."

I only saw that movie once, so I don't remember many of the details... but it was pretty intruiging :3

[Episkopos]

I don't see any chance of a Warmachine/Hordes story getting into a good American Studio, and if it did, I doubt it would be given the proper effort to make it excellent.
Animated is definitely the way to go. There are Korean studios that work for dirt cheap and produce excellent work in both 2d and 3d.

[Blarmb]

I think Production I.G. could do a good job of it, given a chance to follow original characters (what might constitute a new Character unit of Mercs for example), or one of the warcasters operating with a fairly distinct agenda such as Magnus.

They have a lot of good talent on board and have proved they can be up to snuff when it comes to putting together the elements an IK series would need to have, from serious drama, to the animation of mechanical constructs to some of the downright goofier things in the settings (gobbers and about half the trollblood faction). Seriously, check out their credit list: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...any.php?id=337 .

I think being the folks behind stuff like "Ghost in the Shell" and "Moribito" means they could handle a setting like the IK pretty handily. That said, I really don't see it happening. Warmahordes just isn't a big enough franchise for this sort of thing yet.

[PG_relasine]

If the right studio got it, maybe. Bones would probably do a fair job.

[Matthaeus]

Just because a word used to mean something doesnt mean its new combination means something entirely different.

Used to ? Maybe we're not on the same page, what I had in mind was this :

アニメ
1: animated film; animated cartoon; anime (when referring to Japanese cartoons);
2: (Abbreviation) animation

It's just a word for "animation".

Yes, but i could make a rebuttal for that in that every single medium has, encoded within its art styles and idiom, certain cultural connections which change the meaning of the text. This is part of the connection to the culture that created that style, and also part connection to our cultural understanding of that style.

Anime has certain conventions which i seriously don't like. I think that anime styles and conventions wouldnt be able to portray the IK in the right tone or theme.

Would you mind providing examples of such conventions ? There certainly are some, fiction is full of conventions, but not all-encompassing. I think you're being too specific.

[Ysthrall]

I concur that some form of animation is pretty much the only way to show off the IK setting. But even the more war-orientated cartoons/anime/whatever that I've seen (admittedly meagre) would have trouble doing justice to the sprawling, messy, and massivly detailed setting.

Actually, as I was looking across my shelves of DVDs, this thought popped up. "Princess Mononoke" by Studio Ghibli does pretty well in art style for an exploration and a war. Would that be acceptable? In art style and quality, if naught else?

I'd second the concept of a merc company (led by a novice warcaster) starting somewhere and staggering around in search of loot, warjacks, more members, and so on. It would allow for plenty of "please explain this" while at the same time a good deal of "oh, it's that guy", while having an actual plot. I'd want J Michael Straczynski to write it though...

And, speaking as a RPGgamer, a bookworm, and a LARPer, we wargamers are in no position to start sneering at the anime fans.

[Blarmb]

I concur that some form of animation is pretty much the only way to show off the IK setting. But even the more war-orientated cartoons/anime/whatever that I've seen (admittedly meagre) would have trouble doing justice to the sprawling, messy, and massivly detailed setting.

Except it really wouldn't have to it. It'd only have to a decent job of representing whatever was kept in focus. If that's say 24 episodes of following around some novice mercs, who don't spend venture too far from the area around corvis or get their first warjack until around episode 13 or so it should be easy.

[PG_General Nemo]

I recommend comics. An animated medium would be too hard to do right.

[freelancerebel]

Neon Genesis Evangalion and Berserk are some of my favorite shows of all time. If anyone has seen these series in their entirety they would understand the production quality and maturely of it content. Like another poster mentioned the US is not producing quality work in animation at all. Outside of avatar, which looks like Japanese anime, mostly all other animated series look like blockly, cheaply made cartoon sketches. The new Justice League has this same style. If anything I would want a Japanese inspired take on the animation rather than the blocky uninspired designs the States are currently producing.

[themocaw]

Outside of avatar, which looks like Japanese anime, mostly all other animated series look like blockly, cheaply made cartoon sketches. The new Justice League has this same style.

You'd better not be dissing Bruce Timm. Them's fighting words. >:[

[Blackraine]

I think live action is great if you just want to have the humans of Immoren. However, I think you'd need a major production house (and major production budget) to do Live Action Gobbers, Trolls, Ogrun, etc and not have it look like a goofy, B-movie crap-fest by today's standards. Anime (or, really, any style of animation) still offers the same things it offered 50 years ago... the ability to express things artistically in a way that is neither cheap nor easy to do in live action. Digital film making definitely does a lot to bridge the two, but unless you're willing to have an Avatar/Lord of the Rings/etc. style budget, you're not going to get the Avatar/Lord of the Rings/etc. style effects that we've come to expect. So, I think anime (or, again, any other style of cartoon animation) would be the best way to have the non-human races take a part in the story... and I just don't think it would feel like Immoren without that.

If I was going to make an IK Anime, I wouldn't have it revolve around any of the main characters in the setting. Instead, I'd make up a new cast of characters... probably mercenaries working for the Llaelese resistance... and have the story be about them. They'd interact with, and be affected by, the Big Names of the Warmachine and Hordes games, but in the end the story would be about their travels and adventures through the Iron Kingdoms, and the Big Named characters would serve primarily to add complications for them to overcome rather than the actual protaganists and antagonists of the story. This allows it to be faction neutral... because, let's face it, none of the Iron Kingdoms is bereft of some shady agenda. Cygnar (the closest thing to "good guys" in Warmachine) simply wants to use the invasion of Llael as a pretext to re-engage in hostilities with Khador, and they actively discriminate against the Trollblood kriels. The Trollbloods (the closest thing to "good guys" in Hordes) have basically declared war on civilization in general and human civilization specifically, and won't rest until all of the Iron Kingdoms are in ruins... not just Cygnar, but all of them. Having your heroes caught in the midst of all of this and fighting to survive and make sense of it all seems like the best way to faithfully support the Iron Kingdoms setting without giving too much bias to any one particular faction.

Also, when I watch Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood, I pretend like I'm watching an Iron Kingdoms anime...

[profparm]

This allows it to be faction neutral... because, let's face it, none of the Iron Kingdoms is bereft of some shady agenda.

Except for Khador, of course. We are always on the moral high ground and have never ever taken part in any sort of questionable activity, being the pinnacle of human excellence in both morality and strength.

Anyone who says otherwise is to be taken out back and shot, as per Khadoran law.

[Ysthrall]

A good point Blackraine. However:

The Protectorate of Menoth do not have a hidden agenda, neither do the Legion of Everblight. Ironically, it's the same for both: join us one way or another, or die.

I've got a long internet-less holiday coming up, where I might end up sketching out an overall story for a Warmachine anime. I'm thinking a young boy from Corvis, his parents slain by the Witchblade, joins a merc company for the chance to maybe meet and shoot its wielder (whos name escapes me). After several adventures, his merc company gets wiped out at the end of series one, when he survives by taking control of their previously marshalled warjack. And then we segue into adventures of a merc minor warcaster. In which he can bounce off several major characters, grow in power, acquire a few more jacks, travel the iron kingdoms, gather merc support, meet wosshername and be reconciled, and eventually do something big and impressive, possibly against Cryx.

[Blackraine]

A good point Blackraine. However:

The Protectorate of Menoth do not have a hidden agenda, neither do the Legion of Everblight. Ironically, it's the same for both: join us one way or another, or die.

I've got a long internet-less holiday coming up, where I might end up sketching out an overall story for a Warmachine anime. I'm thinking a young boy from Corvis, his parents slain by the Witchblade, joins a merc company for the chance to maybe meet and shoot its wielder (whos name escapes me). After several adventures, his merc company gets wiped out at the end of series one, when he survives by taking control of their previously marshalled warjack. And then we segue into adventures of a merc minor warcaster. In which he can bounce off several major characters, grow in power, acquire a few more jacks, travel the iron kingdoms, gather merc support, meet wosshername and be reconciled, and eventually do something big and impressive, possibly against Cryx.

Well, no. As we saw with Lylyth's brief seperation from Everblight, the Nyss *are* being held against their will... it's just that their will is so overpoweringly obliterated by Everblight's that it makes them seem like willing subjects. There's room for (and hints at) a shady subtext there, it's just in the reverse... overtly evil with the good struggling to get out instead of overtly good with evil working behind the scenes. The Protectorate is the same way... while many of the warcasters of the Protectorate are very pro-crusade, some are simply trying to protect the innocent. The Order of the Wall has voiced (quite often) its opposition to the concept of converting those who can be converted and burning the rest. So, again, overtly "evil" with good working behind the scenes. I'd even apply that label to Circle of Orboros as well. I don't know of any "good" spin you can put on the Skorne other than to look at the world through their eyes, where they were "attacked" (more or less) by a human who sought to rule them all and visited horrible brutality upon them beyond which even they were accustomed, and now that they've thrown off his shackles, it's time for some payback.